quote:

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Originally posted by Saintonge:
As for the many interesting things said concerning sex, race, and language, I think I'll copy them to a word processor file and do a consolidated reply.

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I think it makes sense here too, but then, I�m a Known Fascist, so my opinion doesn�t count.

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A Known Fascist, as opposed to a cryptofascist?

quote:

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Originally posted by Mindy Viridis:
For instance some black cultures think that killing a chicken is a religious thing, but most white people think of that as cruelty to animals and it's not acceptable even as a religious observance. So how can these cultures live together? I've heard some American liberals say that anything religious should be allowed, but what about cults where sexual abuse is part of the ritual? Do you tolerate someone else's religion even when their practices violate fundamental principles of your civilization?

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I'm a religious rights activist, well known within the pagan community for my work. For the record, Santeria (which, I believe is the religion being referred to here) is a legally recognized religion by the US Government. To my knowledge, there are no religions recognized by the government which involve sexual abuse. Of course, religions recognized by the US Government are respected a bit more than, say, Joe Bob's Religious Cult which is sacrificing babies to the King of the Potato People. There's a line here, however, that can't be crossed. In Santeria, chickens are being used. In these "cults" you are describing, people's rights are being violated. I (and many people I know) am a firm believer in respecting anyone's opinions, beliefs, etc. as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others. Your rights end where mine begin.

------------------

CyberGoddess
http://www.cybergoddess.net
Member of the NBS

I do believe what we have here is a failure to communicate.

Mindy said:

(Now I'm wondering if Mindy has listened to much Christine Lavin...)

No. Who is she?

Who likes to talk about their feelings?
        Sensitive new-age guys...
Who's into crystals, who's into healings?
        Sensitive new-age guys...
Who likes to dress like Richard Simmons?
        Sensitive new-age guys...
Who's kind of hard to tell from women?
        Sensitive new-age guys...

Who likes to cry at weddings?
Who thinks Rambo is upsetting?
Who tapes Thirty-Something on their VCR's
Who puts Child On Board stickers on their cars?

quote:

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Originally posted by Sad:
First off, usery != feminism.

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Second off, men and women as best as I can tell from my long sojourn -- want much the same things -- we're all sexual human beings -- but have different approaches.

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Originally posted by Saintonge:
In South Africa, as I understand it, �coloured� was one of the apartheid system�s official racial categories. In the USA, there was never such a big distinction between �pure� black ancestry and �mixed.� If you have any black African ancestry, you�re �black,� even if your skin tone is so light that people have trouble deciding if that�s African genes or a deep tan.

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Btw, the �well, I guess I�d be a cheap whore� line is LOL funny, but potentially PI.

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Uh, the neighborhoods are bad and full of blacks, but the blacks weren�t moved there because we decided to have a bad neighborhood in a certain place.

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Btw, is �kaffir� polite SA usage for those of Xhosa/Zulu/other Bantu ancestry?

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Thank you. It�s good to know our manners are better than we so frequently fear.

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Fyi, referring to residents of the USA as �Americans� is considered offensive in all countries south of the US/Mexican border. They refer to us as �North Americans,� a usage I can not accept because it is Geographically Incorrect (thus my neologism �USAmerican.�)

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The other way around. The US is a non-racist country, but some of the population are still racists to one degree or another.

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I know of court cases where people have tried to label prostitution religion, but they�ve uniformly failed.

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Originally posted by CyberGoddess:
There's a line here, however, that can't be crossed. In Santeria, chickens are being used. In these "cults" you are describing, people's rights are being violated.

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Originally posted by Tau Zero:
Saintonge wrote:

I do believe what we have here is a failure to communicate.

For those not familiar with US culture, this is a reference to the Paul Newman film "Cool Hand Luke".

Mindy said:

[b](Now I'm wondering if Mindy has listened to much Christine Lavin...)

No. Who is she?

She's a New York-based singer/songwriter who has a flair for witty, if gentle, social comment.� A few years ago she wrote a song called "Sensitive New-Age Guys".� It features her soloing over a male chorus whose lines I shall italicize:

Who likes to talk about their feelings?
��������Sensitive new-age guys...
Who's into crystals, who's into healings?
��������Sensitive new-age guys...
Who likes to dress like Richard Simmons?
��������Sensitive new-age guys...
Who's kind of hard to tell from women?
��������Sensitive new-age guys...

Who likes to cry at weddings?
Who thinks Rambo is upsetting?
Who tapes Thirty-Something on their VCR's
Who puts Child On Board stickers on their cars?

[/B]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Saintonge:
As you�ve probably figured out by now, �box� is a USAmerican slang term for vagina.

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With this in mind, I have now changed my sig to something that nobody will be able to understand unless they've read this thread...

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Originally posted by BeauSabre:
A Known Fascist, as opposed to a cryptofascist?

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Originally posted by Mindy Viridis:
Wow, so much to read and think about...

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Originally posted by Saintonge:
Btw, the �well, I guess I�d be a cheap whore� line is LOL funny, but potentially PI.

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I'm glad you liked it. I guess PI means "politically incorrect" here? Yes, I am that sometimes. I think my whole attitude about accepting men as the tramps that they are is pretty politically incorrect!

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Uh, the neighborhoods are bad and full of blacks, but the blacks weren�t moved there because we decided to have a bad neighborhood in a certain place.

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No, of course not. But when a group is oppressed, they usually live in poor conditions, and if the US's racial problems were addressed back in the 1960s, I'm surprised that so many blacks still live in those places. You don't see many Jewish ghettos in Europe anymore, for instance. Though of course that's because the Nazis burned the ghettos down.

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Btw, is �kaffir� polite SA usage for those of Xhosa/Zulu/other Bantu ancestry?

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No, absolutely not. It's about the same as your "n word", actually. These days most white people don't use it in reference to just any black, as they used to, but you do hear it in some contexts where you're meant to understand that this particular black, or group of blacks, are despicable. "Kaffir gang" for a group of black criminals, especially violent ones, is one example. In that case I suppose the contempt is partially based in fear, since you never know who's going to be attacked next. It could be your next-door neighbor, or it could be you.

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Thank you. It�s good to know our manners are better than we so frequently fear.

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Well, I didn't really mean it as a compliment. It's sort of creepy sometimes. The flip side of everybody pretending to like you is that you never know who you can really trust, or who's looking at your back thinking how much better it would look with a knife in it.

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I know you didn't. But we did rudeness in the sixties and seventies. Trust me, this is better.

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Fyi, referring to residents of the USA as �Americans� is considered offensive in all countries south of the US/Mexican border. They refer to us as �North Americans,� a usage I can not accept because it is Geographically Incorrect (thus my neologism �USAmerican.�)

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I've also heard "USian", pronounced "you ess' ee en", which seems more accurate than either "American" or "North American" (which presumably would include Canadians), and more concise than your "USAmerican".

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Thanks, I hadn't heard "USian." Btw, "USAmerican," is pronounced "use- American," all slurred together.

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The other way around. The US is a non-racist country, but some of the population are still racists to one degree or another.

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But if those in power, who decide policy and control the police, are racist, then I would say that in effect the country is racist, even if the population at large is less so. After all, we think of Nazi Germany as a racist country, even though most Germans were horrified by the Holocaust.

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I know of court cases where people have tried to label prostitution religion, but they�ve uniformly failed.

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Well, that's another good example, then. Especially in ancient pagan cultures, and presumably in modern neo-pagan religions, sacred prostitution was very important. I can't imagine that the adherents of these faiths would be comfortable with a prohibition on something so central to their religion.

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I suppose these hypothetical oppressed ancient pagans could move to Vegas. Prostitution is legal outside city limits there ...

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Originally posted by CyberGoddess:
There's a line here, however, that can't be crossed. In Santeria, chickens are being used. In these "cults" you are describing, people's rights are being violated.

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Mindy:
Then you're saying chickens have no rights???

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Now if the religion tried to torture the animals, causing them unnecessary pain and suffering, they'd likely lose. (Understand, this is one of the fractal-border areas of the law, complicated by the fact that what the courts want to do is not in the U.S. Constitution for the most part, so they make it up as they go along).

Keep posting, you do have interesting things to say, Ms. Viridis.

------------------
Saintonge

Now I'm a reasonable man ... ka-click!

quote:

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Originally posted by Mindy Viridis:
Absolutely. Women have the nesting instinct... we want to settle down in a safe place and raise a family. Men want to have sex with lots of different women, because biologically speaking it's their job to spread their genes around as widely as possible. They don't, after all, have devote nine months plus to pregnancy and breast-feeding... a few minutes in bed and they can safely move on. I don't see that this is at all in conflict with anything I've said. And it's at the heart of why I think a lot of the so-called feminist stuff about trying to change men's behavior and attitudes is doomed to failure... it's in conflict with human nature.

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Well, I didn't really mean it as a compliment. It's sort of creepy sometimes. The flip side of everybody pretending to like you is that you never know who you can really trust, or who's looking at your back thinking how much better it would look with a knife in it.

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One thing that is nice about the United States is that there isn't very much tolerance of mass lawlessness.� Even small groups on criminal sprees tend to wind up on the wrong end of a gun in short order. �The major exceptions are "riots", and those can usually be avoided by staying away from a.) protests and b.) out of neighborhoods where outrage at court decisions is likely to be taken out in mass arson and looting.� Even that's not so dangerous if you have a rifle and are willing to look like you'll use it (actually dropping the hammer on someone is almost never necessary, as "rioters" are craven cowards and will only go out looting/burning when the police are guaranteed not to be a threat).� There were several examples of people who kept their Los Angeles shops safe from looters in the Rodney King unrest for as long as they had ammunition.

I can vouch for the character of neighborhoods changing when the social climate changes.� The neighborhood where my mother grew up was very nice, her house had stained-glass windows.� When that part of town "turned", several drug houses opened on the block, people fled and nobody maintained what was left.� The house she once lived in is now gone, as is most of the stock on that block.

quote:

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Originally posted by Saintonge:
Having spent seven years of my youth living in those conditions, I can only say that the property wasn't that way before the underclass moved in, but they made it that way soon enough.

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But it's precisely not the people in power who are the racists. Racism is a sure ticket to electoral oblivion almost anywhere in the USA.

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Well part of it has to do with the fact that there are still groups of people (the older, white upper class) who happen to be in power who also happen to still be racist.

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I suppose these hypothetical oppressed ancient pagans could move to Vegas. Prostitution is legal outside city limits there ...

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------------------

CyberGoddess - the resident pagan http://www.cybergoddess.net
Member of the NBS

"One world, one web, one program." - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein volk, ein reich, ein Fuhrer." - Adolf Hitler

quote:

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Originally posted by Mindy Viridis:
I remember a Vryheidsfront candidate for Parliament once saying, "If you let a pig live in your house, you'll wake up one morning to find you're living in a pigsty." Perhaps things aren't so different in the USA after all.

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The original statement, by Mr. Zarquon, was:[QUOTE]Well part of it has to do with the fact that there are still groups of people (the older, white upper class) who happen to be in power who also happen to still be racist.

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On one hand it seems the prison population of the US is overwhelmingly black, which might suggest persecution, but from what all of you are saying, blacks here effectively prefer to be poor and uneducated (rather than be "oreos", as someone put it), which is the kind of background typical of most violent criminals. So confusing!

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On one hand it seems the prison population of the US is overwhelmingly black, which might suggest persecution, but from what all of you are saying, blacks here effectively prefer to be poor and uneducated (rather than be "oreos", as someone put it), which is the kind of background typical of most violent criminals.

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1. The USA has been carrying on a "war on drugs" for upwards of 20 years;
2. illegal drugs are pervasive in the poor areas (people with few prospects tend to turn to substance abuse whether it's alcohol or heroin; "opium is the religion of the masses");
3. many legislators from minority-heavy districts have called for stricter enforcement of drug laws and harsher penalties to try to remove the problem from their particular areas, leading to:
4. laws which hit drugs and forms of drugs favored by minority users (e.g. "crack" cocaine) much more heavily than those used by the upper classs (e.g. powder cocaine); and
5. drug deals in poor areas are usually conducted in open-air markets instead of the office or parking garage, making the dealers far easier to find, arrest and convict.

quote:

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I guess the two of you disagree on this point. It's hard for me to tell which is right.

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Having power doesnt mean political power. It can mean being the CEO of a company, being a boss of company, etc. In my town there is a problem. The only people in this town are the rich upperclass (who tend to be white) or people whose families lived here before the average price of a house was 600k-800k USD for a nice small house for a beginning couple. Why? because the town has a good school system, and its a 45 minute drive from new york city. It has a good school system because the town is able to gross a lot of money from the taxes of the people, because the people are rich. Why are the rich the only people moving in here (or the upper-middle class) ? Because of the good school system. The only discriminating factor in this town happens to be money on the most part. And its a fact that the majority of the wealth in this country is not made up of minorities.

That may make sense.

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Tau Zero:
Drifting to slang for a minute, am I the only person here who finds it very amusing that the Brits find the phrase "fanny pack" to be borderline-scandalous, while a USAmerican would find the term "bum bag" to be an eyebrow-raiser in a different sense

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A lot of you guys think that if you can just manage to avoid using bad words, and you don't consciously discriminate, then you're not a racist. Sorry; doesn't make it. That's the lesson of the new South Africa in a nutshell. White people stick together, and they do it by making little, non-inclusive remarks, treating other people's distaste for being patronised as a joke and calling anyone who complains about the situation a "race-baiter". Which is how you get a whole bunch of white guys, who'd never dream of discriminating, somehow all manage to come up with the conclusion that, objectively considered on their merits, the best person for the job happens to be another white man. It's not entirely conscious, and mocking the efforts of people who try to make it conscious is conspiring to maintain the clique.

I'm horrified that *nobody* objects to calling black people "pigs" -- the politician in question was a typical piece of Boer scum (don't confuse English-speaking South Africans with Boers -- ever wonder why Holland is such a great, tolerant place? They sent all their small-minded, bigoted assholes to SA. The literal worst people on earth). The point is that a pig is a pig; if you give him a fair chance, he's still a pig. Ugh, I've got a horrible taste in my mouth just talking about this.

In SA, the blacks were in the majority, and they've been given their fair share of the economy. In USA, they were in the minority, and have been deprived of their fair share. Is it any wonder that white people in the USA have never been brought face to face with the ugly reality of white power?

--------

And on the matter of sexism, which is entirely analogous -- you still don't get it. I'm a woman, in sales. That means I have to put up with a lot of bullshit from guys, and act like I like it. Programmers are the *worst*. They'll all nod their heads like little donkeys, saying "oh yes, we think women should be equal, women should be allowed to do whatever they want", as if it's some great concession they're making to half the human race. Then they'll ask me to stay around and watch some bloody porno .mpg, or listen to them commenting on the secretary's tits, because "Oh Astrid, you're not like those horrible ugly lesbian PC girls, probably never had a man ...". And then, on purely objective grounds of talent, they decide that a female candidate "isn't as well qualified" for the job, or "doesn't fit in well", or "is always too aggressive". Nothing I've seen in this list makes me think anyone here is any different.

Which brings me to another thing -- you guys think you're all so bloody liberal because you're talking about "techno-talking babes", not just "fluff". Oh pardon the hell out of me. God forbid that a woman could ever gain your respect if she looked like, I dunno, Steve Wozniak! Why no "techno talking boots"? Because Nitrozak knows her audience, that's why. She knows that only want women who'll conform to your idea of what you want to see (ie, not black, for instance) and who won't really threaten you. Grrrrr.

God, come on, Mindy, tell me something good about men, or I'm getting on the other bus! (I learned that phrase from an English guy). This is why, unless I'm able to totally be dominant, I much prefer to date manager types than self-styled geeks. At least with them, it's usually out in the open; you can take the sexism as it is, rather than having to pretend it's not there and praise someone for being *so damn liberal*.

And I hereby congratulate myself for, nowhere in this flame, having risen to Mindy's obvious bait of using the word "kaffir". Your "Only Extant Good Boer" status is up for review, my dear

quote:

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Originally posted by CyberGoddess:
And to MY knowledge, none of the neo-pagan religions call for sacred prostitution. Many of them do not focus necessarily on monogamy, but they don't advocate prostitution. If there are sects that DO involve sacred prostitution, I haven't run across any of them in either social or activism circles.

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Originally posted by Tau Zero:
Getting rich is always in style, but the acceptable ways of doing so are by way of becoming a superstar in a major-league sport or by dealing drugs.

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Originally posted by Tau Zero:
The USA has been carrying on a "war on drugs" for upwards of 20 years

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Originally posted by Mr. Zarquon:
[BI didnt mean that the political candidates in a country are the ones who are racist. There are other powers in this country.[/B] (...) Having power doesnt mean political power.

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I don't get it. Is this a pissing contest? Whose brand of white supremacy is worse?

Astrid Leuer: I'm a woman, in sales. That means I have to put up with a lot of bullshit from guys, and act like I like it.

You don't say why you have to act as if you like it. Why can't you say you don't like it? Are the programmers stopping you from advancing in sales?

For the record, none of the programmers here have sent me porn MPGs, neither the men nor the women.

Astrid Leuer: Nothing I've seen in this list makes me think anyone here is any different.

Well, let's see. By accident of birth I'm a racist and a sexist, and if I try to say I'm not racist or sexist, I'm a hypocritical chauvinist. Or in denial.

The optimist in me says things can only get better from here!

Astrid Leuer: God, come on, Mindy, tell me something good about men, or I'm getting on the other bus!

That's no guarantee! I know women who ride both buses who like to ogle women and talk about it just like the (Psyclo)man-animals(/Psyclo).

quote:

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Originally posted by Astrid Leuer:
I'm horrified that *nobody* objects to calling black people "pigs" -- the politician in question was a typical piece of Boer scum

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(don't confuse English-speaking South Africans with Boers

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-- ever wonder why Holland is such a great, tolerant place? They sent all their small-minded, bigoted assholes to SA. The literal worst people on earth).

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The point is that a pig is a pig; if you give him a fair chance, he's still a pig.

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And on the matter of sexism, which is entirely analogous -- you still don't get it. I'm a woman, in sales. That means I have to put up with a lot of bullshit from guys, and act like I like it. Programmers are the *worst*.

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On the other hand, on a strictly professional level, they can be okay. They aren't patronizing when I propose a design for something. I've never heard anything like, "You write pretty good code for a girl." It would be unreasonable, though, for me to expect them not to stare at my breasts when we're talking.. they are men, after all. But it is sort of annoying, it's as if I'm talking to a deaf person who expects my breasts to provide a sign-language translation of everything I say.

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They'll all nod their heads like little donkeys, saying "oh yes, we think women should be equal, women should be allowed to do whatever they want", as if it's some great concession they're making to half the human race. Then they'll ask me to stay around and watch some bloody porno .mpg, or listen to them commenting on the secretary's tits

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And no, I didn't kill him, though it was tempting.

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And then, on purely objective grounds of talent, they decide that a female candidate "isn't as well qualified" for the job, or "doesn't fit in well", or "is always too aggressive".

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God, come on, Mindy, tell me something good about men, or I'm getting on the other bus!

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And I hereby congratulate myself for, nowhere in this flame, having risen to Mindy's obvious bait of using the word "kaffir". Your "Only Extant Good Boer" status is up for review, my dear

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Originally posted by Mindy Viridis:
So you're saying that drugs, drug addicts, and drug dealers are prevalent in the underclass neighborhoods, and the elected officials representing those neighborhoods call for more police enforcement to deal with the problem, with the result that many people from the underclass neighborhoods go to jail for drug offences? This sounds really strange to me, because in effect, it sounds like the elected officials are calling on the police to put in prison the very citizens who voted them into office in the first place! Sorry, I'm having a little trouble getting my mind around this...

[/B]

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Not if you consider that the people getting jailed don't vote . So the pol gets to look "tough on drugs/crime" in front of his constituents without actually loosing votes.

quote:

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Originally posted by Saintonge:
Having spent seven years of my youth living in those conditions, I can only say that the property wasn't that way before the underclass moved in, but they made it that way soon enough.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mindy Viridis:

I remember a Vryheidsfront candidate for Parliament once saying, "If you let a pig live in your house, you'll wake up one morning to find you're living in a pigsty." Perhaps things aren't so different in the USA after all.

---

I'm not sure what the signifigance of your remark is, but I'll expand on mine.

In 1962, with my parents divorced and my father in jail, we moved to Albany, NY, and ended up into a high rise housing project for those with low incomes. When we moved in, it was fairly nice. Seven years later, when we moved out, it was awful.

The problems were two. First, high rise buildings like that need guards in the lobby to keep out people who don't live there. Otherwise, you get 'concentrated isolation', halls with few or no people in them at a time, creating great opportunities for burglars and robbers. These building didn't have them.

The other problem was that some of the people living there were slobs, vandals, and crooks. They weren't thrown out, ruthlessly, so they gradually made things worse. The good people found ways to get out, and more and more of the welfare dependant, hopeless, self-destructive and predatory types moved in.

This will happen anywhere, regardless of the race of the underclass, but blacks in the U.S. make up a disproportionate share of the underclass. For some people, this is an excuse to avoid all blacks. For others, to avoid all of the underclass.

quote:

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saintonge:
But it's precisely not the people in power who are the racists. Racism is a sure ticket to electoral oblivion almost anywhere in the USA.

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quote:

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Mindy: The original statement, by Mr. Zarquon, was:
Well part of it has to do with the fact that there are still groups of people (the older, white upper class) who happen to be in power who also happen to still be racist.
I guess the two of you disagree on this point. It's hard for me to tell which is right. On one hand it seems the prison population of the US is overwhelmingly black, which might suggest persecution, but from what all of you are saying, blacks here effectively prefer to be poor and uneducated (rather than be "oreos", as someone put it), which is the kind of background typical of most violent criminals. So confusing!

---

Effectively, yes, the underclass prefers being poor to showing up for work every day, getting an education, etc. This isn't true for all blacks, but it is for underclass blacks (and underclass whites).

BTW, the reason the prison population is overwhelmingly black (and brown) is that the vast majority of the crimes are committed by the black and brown.

quote:

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Originally posted by Tau Zero:
The real problem is that addressing the issue directly, by making life so difficult for the pigs that they either reform or move elsewhere (where?), is extremely difficult if not impossible.� Moving away and leaving the problem "behind" is relatively easy, and the lower property values attract people who either don't have much money or don't care to spend it (no investment in the community).� This is why blight tends to spread.� I would assume that it's just about the same everywhere, given that people are just about the same everywhere.

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Tau Zero: IMHO, the only pols who can afford to be racist are minorities, like big-city mayors.� There may be crypto-racists running around, but they would have to stay well-hidden.� Indeed, you can't even use the word "niggardly" without taking the chance of losing your job.

---

You also have to remember that at the same time segregation broke down in the fifties and sixties, the Left, in its eternal war on humanity, managed to convince the liberal idiots that when a mugging happened, the "victim" was the robber, not the robbed. Also, the Supreme Court made it harder to convict people of crimes. The results were a much reduced chance of going to jail for a crime, which encouraged it.

This was also when affirmative action began. Blacks had been oppressed, so they couldn't be expected to do as well as whites now that the barriers to entry were coming down (of course, Jews and Japanese and Chinese did better than whites in general once the barriers dropped, but that was to be ignored). So, the only 'fair' thing was to guarantee equality of results, regardless of qualifications. Message to black youth: you're a sucker to work hard.

Then there was the Black Power Movement, another Leftish attack on people, that worked to make blacks not try to fit in to the larger society.

While all this was going on, the War on Poverty was declared (note: Poverty won), with a great expansion of welfare benefits, and the collapse of efforts to keep women from having children out of wedlock, and to keep them from supporting live in boyfriends with the welfare money.

Put it all together and the result was social disintegration.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mindy Veridis:

I guess the two of you disagree on this point. It's hard for me to tell which is right.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mr. Zarquon:

Mindy - I didnt mean that the political candidates in a country are the ones who are racist. There are other powers in this country. Managers, companies (texaco in one case) have been shown to be racist and discriminatory when hiring people.

Having power doesnt mean political power. It can mean being the CEO of a company, being a boss of company, etc. In my town there is a problem. The only people in this town are the rich upperclass (who tend to be white) or people whose families lived here before the average price of a house was 600k-800k USD for a nice small house for a beginning couple. Why? because the town has a good school system, and its a 45 minute drive from new york city. It has a good school system because the town is able to gross a lot of money from the taxes of the people, because the people are rich. Why are the rich the only people moving in here (or the upper-middle class) ? Because of the good school system. The only discriminating factor in this town happens to be money on the most part. And its a fact that the majority of the wealth in this country is not made up of minorities.

That may make sense.

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First, for the record, Texaco was found guilty of having a bad tape recorder. Someone at a board meeting mentioned a diversity training class or some such that he'd attended. He quoted something he'd heard in class as an example of what NOT to do. This was distorted into a claim about what Texaco was supposedly already doing. A bad rap.

As to the "problem" in your town, just what is it you see as a problem? That whites are, on the average, richer than blacks?

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Originally posted by Swiss Mercenary:

This thread is getting interesting, having lived all my life if a multi-cultural international society I have never really been confronted head on with the points that have been raised here. There is some latent racism floating around Geneva, but mostly from individuals. Every group or society I belong to has a multi-racial composition and you just do not think about anyones race, just their abilities.

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In the U.S., it is frequently illegal to just think about ability without regard to race (or at least, having thought about it, to act on your conclusions without taking race into acount).

Just what is the racial mixture in Geneva, and the income structure?

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Originally posted by Astrid Leuer:
Quite a lot here. Whoever asked about nicknames -- well, sorry to disappoint you, but "Astrid" isn't my real name. I personally think that handles look a bit silly, but I'm not silly enough to put my real name on the Internet.

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That was me. I understand why you might not want your real name on the Net, I was just interested in whether SA's generally prefer names (even false ones) to handles/nicknames?

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A lot of you guys think that if you can just manage to avoid using bad words, and you don't consciously discriminate, then you're not a racist. Sorry; doesn't make it. That's the lesson of the new South Africa in a nutshell. White people stick together, and they do it by making little, non-inclusive remarks, treating other people's distaste for being patronised as a joke and calling anyone who complains about the situation a "race-baiter".

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You need to be more specific. What do you mean by whites sticking together, or non-inclusive remarks?

Patronising people would be regarded as at least rude, and probably discriminatory anywhere in the U.S., and would likely result in someone getting sued.

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Which is how you get a whole bunch of white guys, who'd never dream of discriminating, somehow all manage to come up with the conclusion that, objectively considered on their merits, the best person for the job happens to be another white man. It's not entirely conscious, and mocking the efforts of people who try to make it conscious is conspiring to maintain the clique.

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Again, details count. In some cases, the best person for a job will be a white man, in some cases a non-white, in some cases a woman. You can't make any better comment without knowing about the specific job and applicant pool for it.

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I'm horrified that *nobody* objects to calling black people "pigs" -- the politician in question was a typical piece of Boer scum (don't confuse English-speaking South Africans with Boers -- ever wonder why Holland is such a great, tolerant place? They sent all their small-minded, bigoted assholes to SA. The literal worst people on earth). The point is that a pig is a pig; if you give him a fair chance, he's still a pig. Ugh, I've got a horrible taste in my mouth just talking about this.

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As I mentioned, it wasn't clear (to me at least) what the politician was talking about.

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In SA, the blacks were in the majority, and they've been given their fair share of the economy. In USA, they were in the minority, and have been deprived of their fair share. Is it any wonder that white people in the USA have never been brought face to face with the ugly reality of white power?

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I think one of the places where I would disagree with you is that in our society, shares of the economy are mostly not given to people, they're earned. Blacks were kept from a chance to earn their share for many decades, but that hasn't been true for 35 years now. The big reason for the disparity in average wealth is that many blacks don't attempt to earn (those that do end in the middle class).

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And on the matter of sexism, which is entirely analogous -- you still don't get it. I'm a woman, in sales. That means I have to put up with a lot of bullshit from guys, and act like I like it. Programmers are the *worst*. They'll all nod their heads like little donkeys, saying "oh yes, we think women should be equal, women should be allowed to do whatever they want", as if it's some great concession they're making to half the human race. Then they'll ask me to stay around and watch some bloody porno .mpg, or listen to them commenting on the secretary's tits, because "Oh Astrid, you're not like those horrible ugly lesbian PC girls, probably never had a man ...". And then, on purely objective grounds of talent, they decide that a female candidate "isn't as well qualified" for the job, or "doesn't fit in well", or "is always too aggressive". Nothing I've seen in this list makes me think anyone here is any different.

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It appears that many of the people you work with are insensitive louts. My sympathies. But in the U.S., many of the behaviors you discribe would get them hauled into court.

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Which brings me to another thing -- you guys think you're all so bloody liberal because you're talking about "techno-talking babes", not just "fluff". Oh pardon the hell out of me. God forbid that a woman could ever gain your respect if she looked like, I dunno, Steve Wozniak! Why no "techno talking boots"? Because Nitrozak knows her audience, that's why. She knows that only want women who'll conform to your idea of what you want to see (ie, not black, for instance) and who won't really threaten you. Grrrrr.

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First, please include me out of anyone considered "liberal." I am not liberal at all.

Can an ugly woman earn my respect? Depends on the woman and the circumstances. I doubt I'd enjoy looking at comics of ugly women as much as comics of beautiful ones.

As for being threatened, comic book characters don't threaten me. Whether real life women threaten me, ugly or beautiful, is not worth discussing because if you decide not to take my word for whatever I say, there's no further evidence to put forth.

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Originally posted by Mindy Viridis:

So you're saying that drugs, drug addicts, and drug dealers are prevalent in the underclass neighborhoods, and the elected officials representing those neighborhoods call for more police enforcement to deal with the problem, with the result that many people from the underclass neighborhoods go to jail for drug offences? This sounds really strange to me, because in effect, it sounds like the elected officials are calling on the police to put in prison the very citizens who voted them into office in the first place! Sorry, I'm having a little trouble getting my mind around this...

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Well, it is strange. The "drug war" goes in cycles. First we get fed up with the crimes addicts committ, and want them thrown in the slammer. Then we do it for a while, and call for mercy, because too many people are being tossed in the slammer. Then the crooks who weren't imprisoned committ more crimes, and we get mad ...

In the end, it's part of our national inability to face hard truths or make a choice and stick with it. We can't decide whether to ignore crime, punish it, or 'treat the root causes' of it (since the root cause of crime is original sin, that last is more than a little difficult ).

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Originally posted by Astrid Leuer: -- ever wonder why Holland is such a great, tolerant place? They sent all their small-minded, bigoted assholes to SA. The literal worst people on earth).

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Mindy:
And of course, prejudice against those races which in the past have been guilty of racial oppression is the only acceptable form of racism.

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Astrid:And on the matter of sexism, which is entirely analogous -- you still don't get it. I'm a woman, in sales. That means I have to put up with a lot of bullshit from guys, and act like I like it. Programmers are the *worst*.

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Mindy:
As a woman programmer, I sort of half-agree with this. The guy next office over from me, for example, has a collection of Victoria's Secret catalogs in his office. Not in his desk, either; they're on the bookshelf near the door where anyone can see them. He doesn't use them to order lingerie by telephone. In fact, I once asked him what they were for (biting my tongue as soon as the words were out -- it was so obvious). He replied, "Bathroom reading!" with a cheerful, mildly leering grin. It was sort of sickening.

On the other hand, on a strictly professional level, they can be okay. They aren't patronizing when I propose a design for something. I've never heard anything like, "You write pretty good code for a girl." It would be unreasonable, though, for me to expect them not to stare at my breasts when we're talking.. they are men, after all. But it is sort of annoying, it's as if I'm talking to a deaf person who expects my breasts to provide a sign-language translation of everything I say.

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LOL out the men expecting a sign language translation done by your breasts!

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Astrid:And then, on purely objective grounds of talent, they decide that a female candidate "isn't as well qualified" for the job, or "doesn't fit in well", or "is always too aggressive".

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Mindy: I actually haven't seen that here in California. I think male programmers (those under 30, at least) like having women programmers around. In addition to being competent, which they don't seem to mind, we're also decorative, and there's always the possibility of a little office romance (they think -- and where else would they meet women?).

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Well, apparently USAmerican male geeks treat women better than SA male geeks. Do to my well known reluctance to boast about the general superiority of my country to all other countries (see here for examples of my national modesty), I won't suggest it's because of the generally higher level of civilization in the U.S. I'll let Sri Lumpa and Swiss Mercenary suggest it for me.

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Astrid:God, come on, Mindy, tell me something good about men, or I'm getting on the other bus!

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Mindy:Some of them can be taught not to make messes in the house, and their height makes it easier for them to wash the roof of your car. Does that help?

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*chuckles*

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And I hereby congratulate myself for, nowhere in this flame, having risen to Mindy's obvious bait of using the word "kaffir". Your "Only Extant Good Boer" status is up for review, my dear

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Mindy: Sigh. The thing that our USian readers here won't know is that we grew up using this word casually. Our parents' generation (and, hence, ours) would say things like "that kaffir boy" in reference to, say, a black custodial worker, or Desmond Tutu, without thinking anything of it. And when I say "we", that's including Astrid, as she well knows. She's just been a little more thorough than I have about eradicating the word from her vocabulary. Yes, I still say "kaffir gang" in reference to house-invading gang rapists, and I don't see why I shouldn't. They're scum, plain and simple, and I'm not going to treat them like people. But certainly the vast majority of blacks, whether in .za or here, should be treated with respect and not called by such names.

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Some things you just need to give time. I saw a 'magazine show' tv story once about an elected black sheriff in some small southern town. There were frequent comments on how it took getting used to from this wrinkled white geezer. But at the end, he said he'd gotten used to blacks being equal, and added "Hell, I don't even call them 'niggers' nomore." That too is progress.

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Originally posted by Mr. Zarquon:
Saintonge-
So you know, i was trying to give an example of "un-intentional racism." To show that some communities are neccessarily racist in and of themselves, however by definition of the community, it makes it hard for there to be a diverse mix of people (extremely expensive living conditions).

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I don't consider racial 'imbalance' that results from non-racial choices a form of racism.

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Originally posted by Saintonge:
I'm not sure what the signifigance of your remark is

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BTW, the reason the prison population is overwhelmingly black (and brown) is that the vast majority of the crimes are committed by the black and brown.
(...)
Then there was the Black Power Movement, another Leftish attack on people, that worked to make blacks not try to fit in to the larger society.

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In the U.S., it is frequently illegal to just think about ability without regard to race (or at least, having thought about it, to act on your conclusions without taking race into acount).

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First, please include me out of anyone considered "liberal." I am not liberal at all.
(...)
the root cause of crime is original sin

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Originally posted by Santonge:
LOL out the men expecting a sign language translation done by your breasts!

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FWIW, in the 2000 census, I checked the "other" box for race and ethnicity. I'm human--mostly.

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Originally posted by Petethelate:
Yes, racism is both illegal and (occasionally) mandatory. Witness Afirmative Action, where to combat a perceived inequity in hiring/promotions, whatever, it's *mandatory* to take race into account in some areas.

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Originally posted by Saintonge:
I'm not sure what the signifigance of your remark is.

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Originally posted by Mindy Viridis:
I'm sorry, I thought it was clear. You were basically saying that when the black underclass moves into a neighborhood, the neighborhood deteriorates. The Parliamentary candidate was saying essentially the same thing.

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No, when any underclass moves into a neighborhood, it deteriorates, unless they are forced to live by the prevailing standards. Race is unimportant. I encountered a good share of white thugs and vandals in our project, as well as perfectly civilized blacks who wanted to live decent lives. It's behavior, not race

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saintonge:BTW, the reason the prison population is overwhelmingly black (and brown) is that the vast majority of the crimes are committed by the black and brown.]
(...)
Then there was the Black Power Movement, another Leftish attack on people, that worked to make blacks not try to fit in to the larger society.

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Mindy:
Do these two go together? I remember hearing something not long ago about the Black Panthers, who I gather were somehow simultaneously a criminal gang and part of the civil rights movement, which seems odd, to say the least. Perhaps you can expand on this?

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The Black Panthers were a gang of thugs and drug dealers who figured out that they could hustle people by pretending to be Left Wing Revolutionaries Fighting the Evil Oppressive Capitalist/Racist/Facist system. The times being what they were, they succeeded at this for years.(What the sixties were was, literally, insane; In the early sixties, I read Methusaleh's Children by Heinlein, and was blown away by the headlines from "The Crazy Years", when mass psychosis sweeps the U.S. Go reread them, they don't sound so odd at all, now.)

Yes, they go together. In the last few years, the reaction against crime got so strong that no one accepted excuses anymore, and instead of looking for 'root causes' to treat, we started throwing the crooks in prison. Even Gov. Mario Cuomo, at one time the Great Liberal Hope, came out for life sentences for repeat offenders ("Three strikes and you're out"). This has been going on for years now, and the crime rate has been dropping quickly.

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Saintonge:In the U.S., it is frequently illegal to just think about ability without regard to race (or at least, having thought about it, to act on your conclusions without taking race into acount).

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Mindy: And this seems to be saying that not being racist is illegal??? I'm more confused than ever!

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Yes. Although it is officially defined as not racism, the policy of Affirmative Action requires that businesses set hiring quotas for race, gender, and other categories. People whose group's quota has been filled need not apply.

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First, please include me out of anyone considered "liberal." I am not liberal at all....the root cause of crime is original sin

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Mindy: Pardon me if I am stepping into a touchy area here, but am I to take it from this that you belong to the "Christian Right"? (This term keeps popping up in the news with regard to your presidential race this year. I gather it has to do with a conservative, Biblically-based view of political issues, supported by Gov. Bush but not by VP Gore.)

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The so-called Christian Right consists of people who believe basically everything in the Bible is literally true. Since the Bible's stand on certain social issues, such as homosexuality, is not that of most liberals, the Christian Right has ended up de facto supporters of Republicans most places.

I am not a member of it, not being much of a Christian in the first place. I'm a sort of lapsed-Catholic theist.

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Originally posted by Petethelate:
Yes, racism is both illegal and (occasionally) mandatory. Witness Afirmative Action, where to combat a perceived inequity in hiring/promotions, whatever, it's *mandatory* to take race into account in some areas.

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Originally posted by Mindy Viridis:
I see. So, once again, then, racism is bad except when its victims are white.

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Yep, those wishing for a return to AA in Calif somehow manage to forget any discrimination against Chinese.

Also, Ralph Bakke (might have misspelt his name) who pushed a reverse discrimination lawsuit against the U of Calif system was persona non grata in the years he was in school.

There's more absurdities, but I'm getting ticked off myself.

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Mindy Viridis wrote:I now have a stock reply when a guy says he needs some sympathy: "I don't keep it in my panties!!!"

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Another response in that vein is "you're not getting into my pants, there's one asshole in there already."� Not original with me (nor ever used on me).

I had wondered if "kaffir" was considered indelicate in .za, but I hadn't gotten around to asking.� FWIW there is a phrase in common use in the USA which puts down humans of filthy tendencies and impermanent, semi-portable abodes; we call them "trailer-park trash".� They are usually white.

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Mindy Viridis again:There was a novel I read recently in which someone says sarcastically, "1 part Negro + 7 parts white = We don't serve your kind in here!"

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Warning: My email address has been subtly altered to keep spammers out of my taco.

<laughing out loud>

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Astrid: I'm horrified that *nobody* objects to calling black people "pigs"

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Astrid: Programmers are the *worst*.

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They'll all nod their heads like little donkeys, saying "oh yes, we think women should be equal, women should be allowed to do whatever they want", as if it's some great concession they're making to half the human race. Then they'll ask me to stay around and watch some bloody porno .mpg, or listen to them commenting on the secretary's tits,

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-- you guys think you're all so bloody liberal because you're talking about "techno-talking babes", not just "fluff".

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Mindy, on men: their height makes it easier for them to wash the roof of your car.

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