quote:

---

Originally posted by Petethelate:
Yeah, like in California where Chinese were *never* discriminated against. The subtle and not so subtle discrimination didn't really happen, no sir.

Yep, those wishing for a return to AA in Calif somehow manage to forget any discrimination against Chinese.

Also, Ralph Bakke (might have misspelt his name) who pushed a reverse discrimination lawsuit against the U of Calif system was persona non grata in the years he was in school.

There's more absurdities, but I'm getting ticked off myself.

Petethelate

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tau Zero:
Lots of men from Asia and the like tend to be rather short.� I offer to get things off of high shelves at the supermarket on a regular basis (and I'm not picky about who asks); I call it "tallesse oblige".� If the short folks can snag me something off the lower shelves more easily than I, it all works out.

---

Just so long as none of them shortie folk move into the neigborhood. I mean, there are limits

I wonder if 'SHORT PEOPLE' is still legal for radio airplay?

quote:

---

Saintonge:
In the U.S., it is frequently illegal to just think about ability without regard to race (or at least, having thought about it, to act on your conclusions without taking race into acount).

Just what is the racial mixture in Geneva, and the income structure?

---

Geneva is a very interesting city, I think that every single nationality is represented here. The last figures I saw were 34% Native Genevois, 33% Other Swiss and 33% Other Nationalities. All right the majority of the other nationalities are Europeans, around 70%
There has always been representatives of all racial types here and you are used to seeing them too. Now used to seeing veiled women as well.
It is certainly not out of the ordinary for someone to have foreign roots. A say, 'Spanish father/German Mother and I am Swiss' comment is normal. All right I know a young lady who has a Swedish mother and Malgash father, now that is slightly out of the ordinary, but not unheard of.

Income structure? Interesting question. About 20 years ago I would have said Swiss on top and foreigners below, now this would certainly not be true.
Ok the data is skewed because under Swiss law, for a company to register here they must have at least 50% Swiss members on the board. Then again the European and World headquarters of many multinationals are located in Geneva. Add all the international organisations (Yes WIPO is based here) and you can see what sort of a mix we have.

If you wish to learn French do not bother coming to Geneva. English, Spanish, Portugese etc. fine. French, nope.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swiss Mercenary:
Geneva is a very interesting city, I think that every single nationality is represented here. The last figures I saw were 34% Native Genevois, 33% Other Swiss and 33% Other Nationalities. All right the majority of the other nationalities are Europeans, around 70%.

---

So maybe 10% non-white. Less than most large U.S. cities.

quote:

---

There have always been representatives of all racial types here and you are used to seeing them too. Now used to seeing veiled women as well.

---

That's been common in the U.S. for years now, at least in Minneapolis.

quote:

---

It is certainly not out of the ordinary for someone to have foreign roots. A say, 'Spanish father/German Mother and I am Swiss' comment is normal. All right I know a young lady who has a Swedish mother and Malgash father, now that is slightly out of the ordinary, but not unheard of.

---

Again, sounds like the U.S. (Now, in Britain, I'm told, the sentiment is "Just 'cause you're born here doesn't make you British.")

If it's not too much trouble, look around for income figures, please.

------------------
Saintonge

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tau Zero:
I've never even seen a porno .mpg (the last one I saw was a Weird Al Yankovic video, titled something like "It's about the Pentiums"... utterly hilarious!).� Having that kind of material on a work computer is grounds for termination everywhere I've been since there was a .mpg format

---

Unless, of course, you work where I do and then you'd better HOPE all you have open on your computer IS porn.

------------------

CyberGoddess
http://www.cybergoddess.net
Member of the NBS

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saintonge:
No, when any underclass moves into a neighborhood, it deteriorates, unless they are forced to live by the prevailing standards.

---

quote:

---

It's behavior, not race.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CyberGoddess:
Unless, of course, you work where I do and then you'd better HOPE all you have open on your computer IS porn.

---

LOL! "Johnson, I'm afraid we're going to have to let you go. CNN is *not* acceptable content here at HottRoxx.com!"

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tau Zero:
I've personally found that the best sympathy is found between the chin and the lowest rib, as a place to put one's head.

---

quote:

---

(To Astrid)
What kind of backwater do you work in...?

---

quote:

---

Lots of men from Asia and the like tend to be rather short.

---

------------------
Warning: My email address has been subtly altered to keep spammers out of my taco.

quote:

---

Originally posted by CyberGoddess:
Unless, of course, you work where I do and then you'd better HOPE all you have open on your computer IS porn.

---

As much as I don't want to bring this thread any further off-topic than it already is, that's not quite correct. IIRC, the Christian doctrine of "original sin" means that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus is going to hell. Just because. It has nothing to do with how you behave.

I'm not sure how Christianity deals with the "we all have an evil streak" deal. Probably something with the "devil".

Saying that "orignal sin" means that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus is going to hell is somewhat misleading. Rather, "original sin" means that no one is innocent. The newborn baby has sinned by nature of being human, hence orignal sin. Anyone who does not repent confess their sins to Jesus, who according to doctrine is the only one who can forgive one's sins, will not be saved. The previous explination implied that people who believe in Jesus are without sin, which is not true.

For the record, doctrine of this nature (original sin, hell, whatnot...) is actually not emphasized much at all in several flavors of Christianity. I've been a practicing Christian for 22 years with the same church, and I've never once heard a sermon on original sin, or hell for that matter.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mindy Viridis:
Did I miss a joke? Porn would not be found objectionable by your employer, but something else would?

[/B]

---

Oops, kinda. I don't have the full details, but the company that Cybergoddess works for is in the porn/website biz.

------------------

CyberGoddess
http://www.cybergoddess.net
Member of the NBS

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mindy Viridis:

Originally posted by Tau Zero:
I've personally found that the best sympathy is found between the chin and the lowest rib, as a place to put one's head.

Yes, I think Astrid and I have already commented on the male fixation regarding the female breast.

---

I think I mentioned cynicism and/or suspicion back there a ways; I think you're showing a lot of it here.� If you care to try to defend your hostility, please explain to me how a male in the comfort-ee position (head on comforter's shoulder/chest) with a female is more or less exploitative or fixative than the same position with the sexes reversed, or a same-sex couple?� (Are lesbians twice as breast-obsessed as males?)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saintonge:
No, when any underclass moves into a neighborhood, it deteriorates, unless they are forced to live by the prevailing standards.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mindy Viridis:
Yes, but since the black underclass is a subset of the underclass as a whole, I think the statement still stands. (Of course, in .za, the underclass is pretty much all black.) In part, I was just finding it mildly ironic that a statement which in .za constitutes outright racism (and is meant as such) can be said in the USA simply as a fact.

---

quote:

---

saintonge:It's behavior, not race.

---

quote:

---

Mindy: Of course. Even in .za, I don't think the most rabid Afrikaaner Resistance people would claim that all whites are perfect. They would just say that the overwhelming majority of whites are good citizens, while blacks, due to their natural inferiority, aren't. Which would seem to correlate disturbingly well with your observation that most crimes in the USA are committed by, as I think you put it earlier, "blacks and browns", despite the fact that they constitute a minority of the overall US population. (Who are the "browns", by the way? I assume you can't mean people from India, as the ones I've met here have been very nice and cultured, without exception. Did you mean Latin Americans?)

---

Yes, by 'browns' I meant Latin Americans, or Hispanics, or Mexicans, or whatever the individual wishes to call themself. There aren't many Indians/Pakistanis/Bangladeshis in the U.S. yet, although their number is increasing. The ones I've met were all nice people.

Otherwise, you misunderstand me. The majority of non-white USAmericans are perfectly fine, law-abiding types. But the U.S. govt. keeps statistics on the perpetrators of crime, and breaks them down by race (among other things) and they show that the majority of criminals are blacks and hispanics (they are also the majority of crime victims too. Imao, formed from having lived in slums, crooks prey on whomever is available, and that means the people in their neighborhood.) The high crime rates are just a fact.

And by the way, when we lived in the housing projects, I met a good number of whites who were underclass.

There are many statistically measureable differences in the distributions of characteristics among the various races (e.g. USAmerican blacks are taller than whites, on average), but I know of no evidence for a difference in basic moral character.

quote:

---

Originally posted by CyberGoddess:
I work for a company who owns and operates porn newsletters. ... This means, I get paid to look at porn all day.

---

I think you said you're neo-pagan, right? I thought neo-pagans were generally non-sexist, or at least less sexist. How do you reconcile this with working in the porn industry? I mean, I understand that it's just the administrative/technical side, it's not as if you're having sex in front of cameras or anything, but still, this is a business which is totally oriented around exploting women to cater to men's basest urges, and here you are providing support for it. I don't mean to attack you, I'm just curious how you deal with it.

I remember a woman I met at a party just night before last, she called herself a feminist and a witch (she used the word "Dianic", which I think means separatist lesbian?), and interestingly she works in a field sort of related to yours -- she works in a store that sells, well, inflatable sex dolls and bondage stuff, and so on. The clientele is almost entirely male. She couldn't really explain how she could stand to work in such a place, though she did seem to see the irony.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tau Zero:
Nowhere did I mention anything about mammaries (it's hard to indulge a visual fixation upon something that's somewhere along the side of your head, doubly so with your eyes closed).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swope:
Rather, "original sin" means that no one is innocent. The newborn baby has sinned by nature of being human, hence original sin.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saintonge:
The majority of non-white USAmericans are perfectly fine, law-abiding types. But the U.S. govt. keeps statistics on the perpetrators of crime, and breaks them down by race (among other things) and they show that the majority of criminals are blacks and hispanics (they are also the majority of crime victims too. Imao, formed from having lived in slums, crooks prey on whomever is available, and that means the people in their neighborhood.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mindy Viridis:
I think you said you're neo-pagan, right? I thought neo-pagans were generally non-sexist, or at least less sexist. How do you reconcile this with working in the porn industry?

---

I hardly consider it exploitation when these women make 3 times the amount of money I do and most of them ENJOY what they are doing. (And yes, I've met some of these girls) At the same time, I've always believed that the human body and sexuality is a beautiful, natural thing. Hell (I might as well let the cat out of the bag) I worked in a strip club for a short period of time a few years ago.

I have nothing against the porn industry. Besides, I've always looked at it this way: the porn industry probably keeps there from being even MORE cases of infidelity out there.

------------------

CyberGoddess http://www.cybergoddess.net
Member of the NBS

"One world, one web, one program." - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein volk, ein reich, ein Fuhrer." - Adolf Hitler

quote:

---

Specifically, the "original sin" is, in Christian theory, the sin of Eve in disobeying God's command not to eat from the forbidden tree, and then "seducing" Adam to do likewise. This caused the expulsion from Eden, and is the primordial "fall" from which Christianity says we must redeem ourselves. I'm sure Astrid is much better qualified than I to analyze the immense hatred of women (typical of Christianity) that is symbolized in this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mindy Viridis:
Well, on most of the women I've met, the breasts are located exactly where you like to lay your head, and is it not part of the comfort of doing so that the warmth and softness of the breasts are there? It isn't just a visual fixation -- touching, even through clothes, is even more exciting for men than looking, don't you think?

---

grrrrrr

There's obviously too much here to reply to point by point, but I maintain that a lot of people here are in denial about their racism. Look at it this way:

You believe that affirmative action is wrong because more qualified people are not hired ("discrimination")

In order to believe that this is true, you have to believe that, rather than correcting racial discrimination which exists, affirmative action programmes are forcing unqualified people into jobs ahead of qualified people (there is *no* evidence of this, by the way).

If you believe that whites and Asians are "more qualified" for jobs than blacks, then either this is because of racism, or it's because blacks are naturally inferior.

I haven't seen *anyone* take the first position, so I have to conclude that people in this thread believe (not necessarily consciously) that there is something about black people and/or black culture which is inferior to whites.

If you believe that the white race is superior to the black race, then I don't see how you can object to being called a racist.

So go on, prove me wrong. Why *is* it that there are so few black people in the tech industry? Are they naturally stupid, or just culturally lazy? Gimme your honest answer.

I don't pretend that this is any better in .za, but at least our racists have the courage of their beliefs; they don't pretend not to be racists.

Oh yeh, and I think everyone misunderstood my point about "porno .mpgs". It's not the specific action; it's the attitude that comes with it. If you've told dirty jokes, or accused women of being "aggressive", or said "watch your mouth", or done anything else which a woman might consider intimidatory or agggressive, then I'm afraid to say that what you've done is just as bad or worse.

I'm quite partial to the odd porno .mpg myself, but only in the right context, and with someone who I don't suspect of being the kind of sneering little nebbish who always has an /ever so excellent/ explanation for why that woman "wasn't quite appropriate" for promotion.

someone reactivate the sex threads, I need to get a bit of balance back ...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Astrid Leuer:
And you didn't have the nerve to participate in any of the sex threads. Little, little, boy.

---

I'll let Tau Zero defend himself, of course, but he did happen to participate in the 'Kinky sex spinoff' thread..

quote:

---

If you believe that whites and Asians are "more qualified" for jobs than blacks, then either this is because of racism, or it's because blacks are naturally inferior.

I haven't seen *anyone* take the first position, so I have to conclude that people in this thread believe (not necessarily consciously) that there is something about black people and/or black culture which is inferior to whites.

---

Or it's because perhaps there are more people of a certain race who are qualified for a certain job, who have had the opportunity to get the education, etc. That doesn't mean that the people of that certain race are "more qualified" than people of another race, given the same education/training. It just means you're more likely to find a person of that certain race who is qualified than a person of another race who is qualified.

quote:

---

If you believe that the white race is superior to the black race, then I don't see how you can object to being called a racist.

---

Well, since that generalizes pretty quickly to the definition of racist, I would certainly agree with you there.

quote:

---

So go on, prove me wrong. Why *is* it that there are so few black people in the tech industry? Are they naturally stupid, or just culturally lazy? Gimme your honest answer.

---

I don't have hard numbers at the moment, but I would guess it has something to do with opportunity for education and the economic demographics of blacks across the States. As well as racism, you can't ignore it, it still happens and probably always will.

Unfortunately.

quote:

---

Originally posted by CyberGoddess:
I hardly consider it exploitation when these women make 3 times the amount of money I do and most of them ENJOY what they are doing.

---

quote:

---

At the same time, I've always believed that the human body and sexuality is a beautiful, natural thing. Hell (I might as well let the cat out of the bag) I worked in a strip club for a short period of time a few years ago.

---

Here's another thought: do you suppose the percentage of rapists among male porn addicts is greater than among the male population in general? I would suspect so.

quote:

---

I've always looked at it this way: the porn industry probably keeps there from being even MORE cases of infidelity out there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swope:
[QUOTE]

btw - Nowhere in the New Testament will you find any passages refering to homosexuality in any form.

---

????? Have the Epistles been struck out of the New Testament??? I seem to remember numerous of them referring to homosexuality, in detail.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swope:
Many denominations see the Bible as the Word of God in the metaphorical sense, and not the literal sense because it was actual human people who originally put the pen to the paper and wrote it down.

---

In a way, it is difficult to generalize about Christianity, because there are so many variations and tiny little splinter groups making different claims. The one thing they all seem to agree on is that they, and they alone, have access to truth. (I suppose Unitarians wouldn't agree with that, but I've heard it said that UU's aren't really Christians at all. This is all the more confusing for me as a newcomer to America, as the USA seems to have more demoninations of Christianity than the whole rest of the world put together.)

Anyway, if I say something about Christianity in general that doesn't happen to apply to your version of it, please don't take offense, and feel free to tell me what your sect teaches on the subject. (By the way, if you don't mind my asking, which sect do you belong to? If I've heard of it before, it might help me understand your viewpoint.)

quote:

---

The passage you refer to is in the Old Testament, and Christianity is primarily based on the New Testament. In the New Testament you find women such as the Virgin Mary, who is the only human without sin, and Mary Magdelene, who had more faith than the Disciples.

---

Sorry for the ramble...don't have as much time (or 'natural'coherence) to put this together better.

>So go on, prove me wrong. Why *is* it that there are so few black people in the tech
>industry? Are they naturally stupid, or just culturally lazy? Gimme your honest answer.

The first (innate stupidity) is definitely wrong. The 2nd (cultural laziness) is trickier. I'm not sure one could describe a culture as lazy. Different values. But perhaps one can judge such.

Even so, hard to say. Some of the comments
on American black sub-culture seem on to me dead on regards anti-intellectual oreo labeling and such.

I think some of the overwhelming factors are
educational opportunity and economics -- and pervasive racism. These are bigger factors in my mind than any cultural bias against dominant culture or intellectual betterment -- if that's really there. After all, I saw plenty of that kind of bias growing up in public schools myself. Partly cuz of smarts I was at a social disadvantage. Amazingly I don't think this bias really disappeared even in state funded undergraduate school either.

Another factor: nuclear family. Long term
slavery disrupted families, and from what I've read and from talking to smart black friends over a long chunk of time (mostly women), it's pretty apparent that slave culture still profoundly affects the make-up of black families. So many kids have no active Dad.

I had family to encourage me and provide role models against negative cultural grain.
Obviously role models don't have to be dad.

In the end, of course, we all must make what we will of ourselves -- and each of us
can do anything we're willing to put ourselves to. But things like family, economics, and safety (as in safe neighborhood) sure help. And so often with
folks who've pulled themselves up, there's somebody often family who's provided a moral anchor at some level that they've internalized and made their own.

as a slightly wierd aside The auto-bio of Malcom X is quite inspiring to me as a story
of depravity and pulling oneself out of the muck. He was an amazing man, and the story very much shows a person transcending the container of culture. In the end, he was killed for it. Also the story shows just one example of how many pitfalls there are if one's environment sucks -- racism, poverty, etc. He was very much on the up and up before his Dad was murdered as an act
of racism

I always growl at forms that ask for my 'racial' identity -- as it's such a stupid
distinction, excepting certain medical factors. But here for purposes of context, I'll self describe as a white guy, a Dad,
and a northerner (USA).

I'm neither rich nor poor. I can't really imagine the immensity of impact that poverty and lack of safety can impose on a family unit...far beyond the obvious. It's hard enough growing up -- and raising kids on the other end.

I was a long time supporter of affirmative action, but I don't think it's right. Seldom does centralized control/manipulation really work.

I do think blacks are prejudiced against today in the USA. I also think that it's wrong to promote someone just because of color. I'm certainly of a black person unfairly 'taking' my space -- I can take care of my own.

Affirmative Action was/is an attempt to solve a real problem. I don't think it's the right solution, however. I've wondered about it for years (10?) and don't have a better solution. Talking with a friend the other day, I think perhaps it's a problem of framing.

Not, AA+ or AA-? Rather, it's the wrong question. That much I'm convinced of.

Maybe the answer is providing a decent education. In the past 10 years I've been shocked by living in Boston and NYC by the fact that (when I was there) some inner city schools did NOT have school books.

How is this possible?!!!! It is a complete travesty and stupid beyond belief from any perspective imaginable. Odds stacked that those kids grow up as thugs and parasites rather than full spectrum members of society.

Well, enough rambling for now. Wish I had
time to be more articulate.

Why are there so few blacks in hi tech.
Obvious - lack of education. That comes from earlier lack of educational opportunities and encouragementm, etc.
I think racism has a nastier affect on those
formative areas then it does on for example
'hiring practices'. Not to say the latter doesn't exist, the former's just far more important.

Here's a tip: Get off your moral high horse and stop "preaching" to the rest of us. You're no better than we are, sweetheart, and frankly I'm tired of you acting like you are.

Bullshit is bullshit, no matter what kind of pretty little words you try to use to dress it up.

You don't know me, so you sure as hell have no right to judge me, my morals, or my beliefs.

And, for the record, statistics will show that many rapists are the men you'd least expect.. not the drunken slobs you mentioned who go to strip clubs. They are middle-class men with decent jobs and many of them families. Unfortunately, stereotyping has taken its toll.

------------------

CyberGoddess http://www.cybergoddess.net
Member of the NBS

"One world, one web, one program." - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein volk, ein reich, ein Fuhrer." - Adolf Hitler

Mostly agree with you. But...
don't you honestly think most of it has pernicious affect? Hard to think otherwise.

I did mention that I should deconstruct something of Astrid's someday.� I don't particularly have the time today, but this opportunity is just too good to pass up.� I shall do this in the style of a translation, with the text rendered in the first person.� Those with defective sarcasm detectors are warned in advance to expect quite a bit of it.� I'm not going to be particularly nice, but the charges and slurs aimed at me have been (IMHO) unjustified and unprovoked.� What's sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Astrid Leuer:
[just to note that I will not be replying to "Tau Zero", or to anyone else who uses threatening language to women.

---

quote:

---

I don't appreciate being told to "watch my mouth" by anyone, and the day I cease to use generalisations about programmers will be precisely one day after little bigoted boffins like him stop sneering at women, blacks, "marketing suits" or anyone else whose presence stirs up their feelings of inferiority, in order to simulate an intellectual superiority they most certainly do not possess.

---

quote:

---

Everyone else on this bulletin board seems to be capable of polite conversation; I somehow don't think I'll be missing any pearls of wisdom by ignoring one isolated, rude, sexist troll.� I'm frankly amazed that Mindy is still prepared to give you the time of day; trying to force women to talk about their breasts on the internet is pretty sad.� And you didn't have the nerve to participate in any of the sex threads.� Little, little, boy.]

---

[end Astrid-to-English translation]

I am mature enough not to take Astrid's ill-informed opinions at face value.� I doubt that Astrid is sufficiently mature to let the above roll off her like water off a duck, and suspect that she will be absolutely livid after reading it (if she can bring herself to even read this far).� If so, it proves that she's been projecting her own failings and I've made my point.

And I shall make other points as well, because I think that Astrid is, whatever her faults, a human being with good intentions and deserves such information as I can usefully present.� In other words, I am not going to take the above personally.� I'm going to do my best to give her the benefit of my perspective, for whatever she can get out of it.

quote:

---

I maintain that a lot of people here are in denial about their racism.

---

quote:

---

You believe that affirmative action is wrong because more qualified people are not hired ("discrimination")

---

quote:

---

In order to believe that this is true, you have to believe that, rather than correcting racial discrimination which exists, affirmative action programmes are forcing unqualified people into jobs ahead of qualified people (there is *no* evidence of this, by the way).

---

quote:

---

If you believe that whites and Asians are "more qualified" for jobs than blacks, then either this is because of racism, or it's because blacks are naturally inferior.

---

quote:

---

I haven't seen *anyone* take the first position, so I have to conclude that people in this thread believe (not necessarily consciously) that there is something about black people and/or black culture which is inferior to whites.

---

It also leads to a very non-racist conclusion.� People will try to do what is expected of them, and will absorb what's around them.� If we reward educational achievement and expect kids to succeed, and surround them with examples, they'll go on to do that.� If we spit on the valedictorians and denounce such as "too much of the other", our kids will do that.� It's not the genes, it's not the skin.

quote:

---

If you believe that the white race is superior to the black race, then I don't see how you can object to being called a racist.

---

quote:

---

So go on, prove me wrong.� Why *is* it that there are so few black people in the tech industry?� Are they naturally stupid, or just culturally lazy?� Gimme your honest answer.

---

quote:

---

I don't pretend that this is any better in .za, but at least our racists have the courage of their beliefs; they don't pretend not to be racists.

---

quote:

---

Oh yeh, and I think everyone misunderstood my point about "porno .mpgs".� It's not the specific action; it's the attitude that comes with it.

---

quote:

---

If you've told dirty jokes, or accused women of being "aggressive", or said "watch your mouth", or done anything else which a woman might consider intimidatory or agggressive, then I'm afraid to say that what you've done is just as bad or worse.

---

quote:

---

I'm quite partial to the odd porno .mpg myself, but only in the right context, and with someone who I don't suspect of being the kind of sneering little nebbish who always has an /ever so excellent/ explanation for why that woman "wasn't quite appropriate" for promotion.

---

quote:

---

someone reactivate the sex threads, I need to get a bit of balance back ...

---

And another thing, everyone has some prejudices (even me). And there's nothing wrong with not publicly admitting that. It's usually referred to as "diplomatic" or "nice."

Agree wholeheartedly with everything you said, except:
. I don't stand behind the words you put in Astrid' mouth. I find it infuriating when anyone does that to me -- regardless of intent or content.

. Govt can't do much but can do some.
. Grossly penalize overt racism. (not as easy to prove as one'd desire)
. Act to raise minimal level of education. Status quo is probably racist, and is near certainly classist.

At bare minimum, the piss poor education in some quarters is f***ing stupid. Even were one uncaring of raising children to be thugs and such, one should in one's own self interest want to educate other kids.

More education => Less crime, less $ in supporting criminal justice system, more $ in tax system from income earning folk

I wish somehow the word 'conservative' could be reclaimed from the bigotted as**oles. You can hardly claim it's not pernicious, punative racism -- as it's against one's own best selfish interests.

Easier for me to believe that people are malicious than *that* stupid.

Finally, I don't agree on the porn stance. Or rather, I'm not interested personally in the porn. I also think it's likely that most of it is hugely exploitative and not good for folks. But I'll be d*mned if I'll put the whole category in a box w/concrete shoes.

That's an overly narrow, self-righteous stance.

Mecka --

F*ck diplomacy. I'd rather have truth.
Further, folks who hide behind the the thin gauze of diplomacy/politeness, are disengenous (or in denial) about their own unwillingness to be honest and own their beliefs.

If we were all honest, we'd get a lot farther a lot faster.

Diplomacy is just so much nicer. Feh.

quote:

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Originally posted by CyberGoddess:
I work for a company who owns and operates porn newsletters. It's my job to check the sponsor sites to see if they are violating our Terms and Conditions of sponsorship and terminate their accounts if they are. This means, I get paid to look at porn all day.

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Now that raises an interesting question: how do I get hired, What does a porn site do that gets itself terminated?

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Originally posted by Saintonge: However, you do not need to be Christian, or even religous in any sense to believe in original sin. You just need the courage to look at people honestly. We all have an evil streak.

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Originally posted by Avi Drissman:
IIRC, the Christian doctrine of "original sin" means that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus is going to hell...

I'm not sure how Christianity deals with the "we all have an evil streak" deal. Probably something with the "devil".

Avi

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I can't speak for all varieties of Christianity, but in the Catholic Church, where I was raised, it was precisely "original sin" that was used to explain the evil disposition we all share. And that seems to be true of other denominations I've come across.

In any case, the explanation of the phenomenon can be debated, but that it exists can not.

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Originally posted by Saintonge:
...it was precisely "original sin" that was used to explain the evil disposition we all share. And that seems to be true of other denominations I've come across.

In any case, the explanation of the phenomenum can be debated, but that it exists can not.

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Whatever. You're talking out of your hat.
I dispute that we all share an 'evil disposition' -- what a negative outlook.

Now, then:

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Originally posted by Saintonge:
The majority of non-white USAmericans are perfectly fine, law-abiding types. But the U.S. govt. keeps statistics on the perpetrators of crime, and breaks them down by race (among other things) and they show that the majority of criminals are blacks and hispanics (they are also the majority of crime victims too. Imao, formed from having lived in slums, crooks prey on whomever is available, and that means the people in their neighborhood.)

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Originally posted by Mindy Viridis:
Yes, I'm sure this is true, in .za as well as the USA. In fact, I think you're mostly just restating what you've said previously, in perhaps a bit more detail. The only thing I'm not sure of is why you think I'm arguing with you. All I've said is it's sort of ironic that when someone says these things in .za (where the situation is probably not really all that different, just a bit worse), he is considered, and most likely considers himself to be, a racist, whereas here you can say the same things without the same connotations.

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Pardon me, but you said that in South Africa, the people who say things like �We have to keep the black underclass out� believe that blacks are inferior by nature. I do not believe that at all.

Btw, Thomas Sowell, one of the U.S.�s more interesting thinkers, notes that accounts of Irish neighborhoods of 150 years ago sound much like black neighborhoods today (although you have to be careful of what black neighborhood you speak of. Most of my neighbors are black, and this is NOT an underclass neighborhood. Lower middle, basicly). Much the same social problems. We can hope will things get better.

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Originally posted by Astrid Leuer:
grrrrrr

There's obviously too much here to reply to point by point, but I maintain that a lot of people here are in denial about their racism. Look at it this way:

You believe that affirmative action is wrong because more qualified people are not hired ("discrimination"). In order to believe that this is true, you have to believe that, rather than correcting racial discrimination which exists, affirmative action programmes are forcing unqualified people into jobs ahead of qualified people (there is *no* evidence of this, by the way).

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I don�t see any point in responding to accusations of racism, as nothing counts as evidence that you are not a racist.

I can�t speak to the South African situation, but there is a great deal of evidence in the U.S. that affirmitive action does indeed promote the unqualified ahead of the qualified.

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Astrid :
If you believe that whites and Asians are "more qualified" for jobs than blacks, then either this is because of racism, or it's because blacks are naturally inferior.

I haven't seen *anyone* take the first position, so I have to conclude that people in this thread believe (not necessarily consciously) that there is something about black people and/or black culture which is inferior to whites.

If you believe that the white race is superior to the black race, then I don't see how you can object to being called a racist.

So go on, prove me wrong. Why *is* it that there are so few black people in the tech industry? Are they naturally stupid, or just culturally lazy? Gimme your honest answer.

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You distort what we say, then mock the distortion. An old trick.

I don�t think that all Asians and whites are �more qualified� than all blacks. In fact, I don�t even know what you mean by qualified.

I do know that, statistically, all available predictors of results in some fields (such as success at the intellectually most challenging colleges) are unequally distributed by race, gender, and other factors. If one picks for, say, admission to the University of Minnesota those most likely to succeed based on the available predictors, the result is a student body that is more white and Asian than the general population. This is unacceptable to the powers that be, so they establish a �goal� of �diversity�, which is in plain talk quotas. Whites and Asians will be evaluated by some criteria or other, and admitted till their quota is filled, and the rest will be refused admission. Blacks, Hispanics, and American Indians (and probably other groups, I�m not up on the current criteria for affirmative racism) will be admitted till their quota is filled, even if unqualified. If by chance a white or Asian is just below the cutoff point for admission, but is accidently classified as black, they will be an automatic admit. If a black in the middle of the black group is accidently classified as white, they will probably be refused as unqualified. And the percentage of blacks, etc. admitted to the toughest schools under affirmative action who end up failing is much higher than that of whites and Asians. In short, the predictors seem to work fairly well. So the lives of affirmative action's 'beneficiaries' are screwed up to make the people who admitted them because of their skin color feel better. I say that�s racism, and I say to hell with it.

Why not many blacks in tech jobs in the U.S.? Well, to the extent that higher than above average IQ is necessary, blacks as a group are at a disadvantage, as the black distribution is about one standard deviation lower than the white distribution. I don�t know why the IQ distribution difference, but the fact is massively documented.

Then there is the vast number of blacks born out of wedlock, a majority if I remember correctly. Statistically, in the U.S., if your parents are unmarried, you are much more likely to drop out of school, end up in prison, etc.

And there are many stories nowadays of U.S. black kids who study and try to succeed getting mocked, beaten, and sometimes killed for �acting white.� Not exactly conducive to success in high tech, such attitudes.

Btw, why do you think we whites in the U.S. are predjudiced against blacks because of their race, but either not predjudiced against Asians or predjudiced in their favor. If we hand out rewards based on group membership, we must love Asians because they do better on average than whites. Gee, I wonder why I hate my own race this way ...

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Originally posted by Astrid:

Oh yeah, and I think everyone misunderstood my point about "porno .mpgs". It's not the specific action; it's the attitude that comes with it. If you've told dirty jokes, or accused women of being "aggressive", or said "watch your mouth", or done anything else which a woman might consider intimidatory or agggressive, then I'm afraid to say that what you've done is just as bad or worse.

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Well, I frequently tell dirty jokes to my wife, who laughs at them and tells me others in return, but I wouldn�t do that with someone I didn�t have good reason to think would appreciate them. That's simple good manners.

I can�t recall accusing �women� (which ones?) of being aggressive, and wasn�t aware that it was an offense. I have met aggressive women.

The only person I can recall telling to watch their mouth was a guy who used to work for me in fast food. He was being rude to the customers. Had to fire him.

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Mindy Viridis:
And the porn "industry" in the past has shown itself more than willing to profit from the most vile conduct. Linda Lovelace, for example, is on record that her performance in "Deep Throat" was done literally at gunpoint, and that when you watch that film, "you're watching me being raped". Would it be any better, really, if she had been granted a share of the film's profits?

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For the record, I believe there is ample evidence that Lovelace was lying when she made that claim.

On the general subject of porn and people debasing themselves willing: Of course. Whoring is the characteristic sin of capitalism, as genocide is of communism. When people are free, many of them will immediately begin to act in disgusting fashion. When they aren�t free, they�ll be oppressed by the rulers, and will still act in disgusting fashion, though perhaps not to the same extent or in the same way. I choose freedom.

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Mindy: Here's another thought: do you suppose the percentage of rapists among male porn addicts is greater than among the male population in general? I would suspect so.

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I am not aware of any evidence on this point, but in any case, is a porn addict/rapist a rapist because he was corrupted by porn, or did he become addicted to porn because he was already tending towards rape? I do have overwhelming evidence that almost all rapists wear shoes. Will making men go barefoot help stop rape?

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Mindy: Remember that the Roman Church's heresy case against Galileo was based on a single verse of the Bible, which, if taken literally, claimed that the sun revolved around the earth. Of course, that was 400 years ago, but it took the Church until just a few years ago to reconsider that case!

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Actually, no one knows precisely what the Church�s case against Galileo was, as the accusation has never come to light. There is evidence (see Galileo: Heretic by Pietro Redondi) that he was accused of other things, and the relatively trivial charge he was tried under was substituted to protect him (among other things, he first beat the accusation, then, after off the record consultations, pled guilty).

Welcome, Sad! Feel free to jump in and post.

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Originally posted by Sad: Another factor: nuclear family. Long term slavery disrupted families, and from what I've read and from talking to smart black friends over a long chunk of time (mostly women), it's pretty apparent that slave culture still profoundly affects the make-up of black families. So many kids have no active Dad.

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The only study of this I know of (The Black Family in Slavery and Freedom by Herbert George Gutman) found that black families were much more stable than today under slavery and freedom till about 1960. I think the evidence is that the U.S. welfare system was what disrupted black family life.

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Sad: The auto-bio of Malcom X is quite inspiring to me as a story of depravity and pulling oneself out of the muck. He was an amazing man, and the story very much shows a person transcending the container of culture. In the end, he was killed for it. Also the story shows just one example of how many pitfalls there are if one's environment sucks -- racism, poverty, etc. He was very much on the up and up before his Dad was murdered as an act of racism.

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The thing I especially remember from Malcom�s bio: He was one of the top three students in high school, thinking of becoming a doctor or lawyer, when a racist teacher told him those weren�t appropriate jobs for �niggers,� and he should consider something like carpentry instead. Sadly, he let the asshole discourage him.

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Sad: Affirmative Action was/is an attempt to solve a real problem. I don't think it's the right solution, however. I've wondered about it for years (10?) and don't have a better solution. Talking with a friend the other day, I think perhaps it's a problem of framing.

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Affirmative Action was first proposed by President Johnson around 1966, and widely implemented in he �70s. If it was a solution, we�d see it by now. The only solution I can think of is to encourage each person to make of themself the best they can be, and judge them as individuals, regardless of race.

Btw, Thomas Sowell has written a book Preferential Policies: An International Perspective which comes to the conclusion that they have failed wherever tried up through the time he wrote the book (before Apartheid ended in SA).

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Originally posted by Tau Zero: I haven't seen a piece of porno I found interesting (except as a study of the psychology of the intended audience) for a long, long time. The only example I'd want to share was funny because it was a James Bond spoof, and I have no idea where I'd find it (and no particular desire to look; it wasn't that funny, nowhere near as funny and worthwhile as Wallace and Gromit).

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A few years back there was a relatively funny porno movie, Lucy Has a Ball, which was a dead on parody of a typical �I Love Lucy� episode (Lucy�s mad at Ricky, he won�t give her money for shopping, so she comes up with a scheme to make some, which predictably goes wrong ...). But most of it is pretty boring.

I do wish though I had a tape made during the last years of the porno theatre business, when they still did previews. At the end of the movie, there were four or five previews, each of which was for "The hottest movie ever made!" Unintentionally hilarious.

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Sad:
More education => Less crime, less $ in supporting criminal justice system, more $ in tax system from income earning folk.

I wish somehow the word 'conservative' could be reclaimed from the bigotted as**oles. You can hardly claim it's not pernicious, punative racism -- as it's against one's own best selfish interests.

Easier for me to believe that people are malicious than *that* stupid.

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I agree completely with your first paragraph, but in my experience it is the Liberals (note to non-USAmericans: �Liberal� in the U.S. does not mean what it means in European usage) who sabotage education for the lower class. They�re the ones who tolerate disruptive students, back social promotion, claim that if non-whites have lower scores on standardized tests that proves the tests are biased against blacks (subtext: �You don�t expect them to be able to learn, do you?�), and generally undermine any hope of effective education in lower-class and under-class neighborhoods. And when the problems are pointed out, the answer is always �Give us more time, and lots more money, and everything will improve. How much more time and money? While, till it improves, of course!� It�s the �bigoted asshole� conservatives who think non-whites can learn if taught properly.

From an article on the NYC Police Dept.

" "Last Saturday night, a 23-year-old boy was shot and killed," a squad commander in Brooklyn tells me bitterly, by way of illustration. "His friends were with him; everyone knows who killed him. The only person who cared was the mother. I asked her to tell his friends to come and help solve the murder. She asked them, but they refused�his best friends. So I try to find them. One takes off, running. I'm chasing the kid, and people are blocking me. If the community really cared, I'd solve every murder. The community's only 'the community' when they want to trash the police. I attend every wake, I embrace every victim of crime, do whatever I can to solve the pain, and the rest of the community stays away. No one cares." Sums up crime strategist Jack Maple: "If we could get 'the community' to press charges and show up in court, we'd be batting a home run." "

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Originally posted by Saintonge:
A quote and a statistic I came across today.

From an article on the NYC Police Dept.

" "Last Saturday night, a 23-year-old boy was shot and killed,"

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Perhaps, Saintonge, the police would have better relationships with the black community if they stopped calling 23 year old black men "boys"?