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Author Topic:   Is there a god?
GameMaster
Highlie

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From: State of insanity
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posted April 30, 2002 03:22     Click Here to See the Profile for GameMaster   Click Here to Email GameMaster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I bring this up becasue in my short stay here (relitivly, short looking at other peoples post numbers), and I noticed some Biblical quotes, some names with Tao in them and some whining about Biblical refrences in a certian geek movie. I realize that we the geeks tend to be more tolerant and enlightened, but curious about what the responce to another post I just made will be, I have begun to think about this- "What logical, scientific and philisophical proof is there in both directions concerning the exsistance of god?"

This of course made me reaize that I am a insomniac (look at time on post), dyslexic (though I am typically able to over come it, thanks to spell check-- but it probably shows through here), agnostic. Which means I stay up all night contemplating the exsistance of Dog.

All joking aside, I feel that there is a higher power, and that it can be seen in the majesty of the universe. I think that the convient symetry that exsists between the movement of sub-atomic particals and the movement of the celestrial bodies seems to infer that there was some order to the maadness that created the universe. Take into account also the thery of multipule causeality: All effects have a cause wich are effects of other causes, thus even the initaial cause must have a cause external to this universe.

Your thoughts?

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snupy
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posted April 30, 2002 04:34     Click Here to See the Profile for snupy   Click Here to Email snupy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There probably is a god of some sort, but you can't find him through organized religion(most of them, anyway)It's much purer when you look into your own heart to find him. Just an opinion, remember.

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macadddikt18
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posted April 30, 2002 05:45     Click Here to See the Profile for macadddikt18   Click Here to Email macadddikt18     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
the simple answer is yes there is a God out there. You can find him in orginized religion, but only in christianity. The best part is that God, who created the whole Universe, adn everything we know, wants to have a relationship with you. That just blows my midn some days. Don't sit there and try to understand God though, that is impossible. But if you seek him, he will reveal himself to you.
Nayt

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snupy
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posted April 30, 2002 06:04     Click Here to See the Profile for snupy   Click Here to Email snupy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by macadddikt18:
the simple answer is yes there is a God out there. You can find him in orginized religion, but only in christianity. The best part is that God, who created the whole Universe, adn everything we know, wants to have a relationship with you. That just blows my midn some days. Don't sit there and try to understand God though, that is impossible. But if you seek him, he will reveal himself to you.
Nayt


The scariest thing is that you're not joking when you say "only in Christianity". That's what's wrong with Christians.

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quantumfluff
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posted April 30, 2002 08:13     Click Here to See the Profile for quantumfluff   Click Here to Email quantumfluff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No

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spungo
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posted April 30, 2002 08:24     Click Here to See the Profile for spungo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by quantumfluff:
No

Good answer, Fluff Daddy! I like your reasoning!

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spungo
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posted April 30, 2002 08:33     Click Here to See the Profile for spungo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I went to a disco once and saw Him doing the macarena - I asked someone who he was - they told me it was God moving in mysterious ways.


(Ok - shoot me now.)

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GameMaster
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posted April 30, 2002 08:39     Click Here to See the Profile for GameMaster   Click Here to Email GameMaster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh, come one fluff, I realize that the burden of proof lies on those of us who believe in soe form of higher power, but I'd like to know why you don't think there is a god.

Nayt, I am not suprised (disappointed but not supprised) to hear you say that. Do you believe then believe that only those who believe in your god have salvation? Does this then damn all Aleins (pointing out that it is quite likly that they exsist) to a "hell," simply because they have not hear of your Christ? I don't mean to be mean, I am just looking for reasons beyond "the bible says so."

I am a pagan for a number of philisopical reasons including the belief in a catagorical moral imparitive that is consistent with the laws of physics "for each and every action there is an equal and oppiste reaction." Reincarnation also makes scence (and yes christians actually have a history of belief in reincarnation) based on the laws of conservation. After all isn't a soul just a form of energy?

Again, I digress.

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snupy
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posted April 30, 2002 09:36     Click Here to See the Profile for snupy   Click Here to Email snupy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spungo:
I went to a disco once and saw Him doing the macarena - I asked someone who he was - they told me it was God moving in mysterious ways.


(Ok - shoot me now.)


And my blonde joke was reprehensible?! Actually, thats hysterical!

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Ti
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posted April 30, 2002 10:16     Click Here to See the Profile for Ti     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spungo:
Good answer, Fluff Daddy! I like your reasoning!


Works for me.

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greycat
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posted April 30, 2002 10:43     Click Here to See the Profile for greycat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
I think that the convient symetry that exsists between the movement of sub-atomic particals and the movement of the celestrial bodies seems to infer that there was some order to the maadness that created the universe.

If you still think that there's any symmetry between the elliptical orbits of planets and the motions of electrons around the nucleus of an atom, you haven't studied enough physics yet.

At the subatomic level, it's not even really accurate to say that electrons have a position at all. They have a probability distribution which covers the entire universe; and that distribution "breaks down" into a single point if you observe the electon (particle). But if you do that, then you cannot know its velocity. Contrariwise, you could measure its velocity, but then you cannot be certain of its position. This is the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

Here's another one: the famous two-slit diffraction experiment. Take an opaque barrier with two slits in it and fire a beam of photons (light) at it. The light will pass through the slits and form a diffraction pattern on the wall behind your barrier. Now fire a single photon at the barrier -- it should pass through one slit or the other, right? Wrong. It passes through both slits. The single photon travels both paths and forms a diffraction pattern. Now put a sensor on one of the slits so that you can tell whether the photon passes through that slit, or not. The photon will no longer form a diffraction pattern; it will pass through one slit or the other.

By observing the system, you have changed the behavior of the particle. You want god? Explain that one. You'll have your answer.

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LifetimeTrekker
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posted April 30, 2002 17:00     Click Here to See the Profile for LifetimeTrekker   Click Here to Email LifetimeTrekker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I suppose that the question of God or no God is up to the individual's beliefs.

The problem with the way the question is phrased is incendiary; rather I'd ask "What does the term God mean to you?" My definition is vastly different than Nayt's, or Fluff's, or anyone else because it is my definition--tainted, coloured, flavored and filtered thru my perceptions and experiences.

The inherent danger in this line of thought is that most of humanity is not mature enough to look at belief systems objectively. This leads to the projection of one's beliefs onto someone else, with unreasoning frustration that another can't see the obvious "Truth" which is generally ill-defined and badly communicated. Which leads to the same problems we're treated to from the Middle East.

By the way, on the "Organized Religion" subject, think of that as a scaffolding surrounding God...Intricately designed to keep you in the process instead of actually getting to Him/Her. After all, if you could actually get to Him/Her through relgion, why would religion exist in the first place?

Lest anyone think I'm talking out of my ass, I've been a born-again Christian and a Pagan. I abhor the hubris (look it up) of "we're better than you are because we're Christians!" attitude to the point that anyone wanting to give me the Lord's Word of the Day makes me say No. I've found too many times that the more Christian a person proclaims him/herself, the less Christ-like they are; judgemental and close-minded. When it comes to the Pagans, and a more friendly, open-minded and accepting group of peoples I've never met.

"Cthulhu Saves! (He may get hungry later!)"

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GameMaster
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posted April 30, 2002 17:24     Click Here to See the Profile for GameMaster   Click Here to Email GameMaster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am both aware and fond of the Uncertianty Princible, and while I reliaze that the "symetry" between celestrial bodies and sub-attomic particals isn't anywhere near what we once thought it was, it still does beg the question isn't this the work of the same orginized thought?

I have heard of the diffraction expeirement, but I don't believe that transendental exsistentialism and the exsistancce of a higher power are not nessaecarily mutal exclusive. I realize that it may seem contradictory to say that there is an omnipotentant being and we shap our own realities, but I don't see anyreason why this couldn't be the case.

LifeTracker, I understand that I was vauge about the definition of the word god, and that I have continuously used the male form of the word even though my beliefs point to a sexless deity. I wanted t obe general so that I'd get some people from other (more)orginized religons. I was also intrested to see the philosophies that lead people to beliefs in deities. I also realize that as tolerant and open-minded as I try to be I find that I get upset when I run into people whose only argument for their beliefs comes from some "athority" and not from logical argument or observation.

I realize that this probaly isn't the best time to post this question, in light of what has been going on in the middle east, but the fact that we are able to discuss peacfully such a "delicate" topic even in heated times says somthing about the maturity of the geeks on this board.

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ZorroTheFox
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posted April 30, 2002 18:27     Click Here to See the Profile for ZorroTheFox   Click Here to Email ZorroTheFox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
yes, and I am created in His image, what a handsome God we have..........Z

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pawn
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posted April 30, 2002 18:47     Click Here to See the Profile for pawn   Click Here to Email pawn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have no problem believing there may be a god. You see I go the opposite way of science. I believe in something until it has been dis-proven, and until now no one has a way to prove that god dosn't exist. When the human race finds a way to look at every single atom in the entire universe at the same time, and they find no god then I will believe, or not believe as it were. Then again, by then I will most likely be dead a loooooong time and will already know the answer.

What I DO have a problem with, is people believing that you can only find him/her through organised religion. What a hunk of crap that is. I see organised religions as one of two things:

1. Cults that prey on weak minded people unable (or unwilling) to think for themselves.

That is truly what religions are. CULTS. The only difference is that organised religion has been approved by the ones in power (ie. the governments, the kings, ect.).

2. Gathering places for anal retentive jerk-offs to try and palm their views/morals on the rest of the world.

For example, there is a radio station in my hometown, 97.3 K-ROCK. It is a station that has done a lot of good in and around our community. Anyway they had billboards put up around town for their morning show that MOST people thought were funny.

Unfortunatly, some church groups got together and convinced whoever is in charge of censoring things that this was unappropriate, and they were taken down.

I think that if people wern't so conserned with saving their own asses(read: souls), they would realise just what these organisations are, and what they do. As a result many people would leave, and most of them would probably find it easier to connect with god.

Anyway, back to the original question. As I stated earlier, yes I believe there may be a god. Though I can't say if she/he created the universe(I wasn't there).

I see god as an artist. He/she uses the universe as a medium in which to portray her/his vision. If god did create us it was just because we fit in with that vision at the time.

If people really want to connect with god all they have to do is go out and experience nature. Watch a sunset or sunrise, sit down and listen to the wind in the trees, climb a mountain and feel the rock beneath your hands, take a deep breath of fresh mountain air, or take a long drink from a cold stream. Thats where god is. That's where you will find your connection, and that's where you communicate with her/him. At least IMNSHO.

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macadddikt18
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posted April 30, 2002 19:28     Click Here to See the Profile for macadddikt18   Click Here to Email macadddikt18     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
if the aliens do exist, all they have to do is believe. I think i will clarify my organized religion up a bit. You don't have to have it. You can find God anywhere. The only way you will get to God is through his son Jesus Christ. Organized religion provides you with more of a family of support. there is no other way to God.


John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

if you don't believe in Him, then you ain't going to the father. Sure, you will get condemned to hell. i find that most people have something against God, jesus or christianity, but never say what it is.
nayt

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snupy
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posted April 30, 2002 19:48     Click Here to See the Profile for snupy   Click Here to Email snupy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That's because you just said it for us

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Xanthine
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posted April 30, 2002 19:59     Click Here to See the Profile for Xanthine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am an agnostic. Ususally when people ask me this question I say I worship mountains and let them call me a godless heathen. However, I feel like being serious for once. What follows is my own opinion.

I don't believe in the omnipotent, omnisicent god found in Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. I do however, believe that there is a power within and around us - the Japanese call it ki. I believe it is in all living things and within the earth itself. You can feel it if you sit still, you can feel it in nature. You can call upon it. I know this sounds like the Force from Star Wars, but it's not. For one thing, I do not believe that ki can make objects fly through the air nor can it control minds. It can, however, strengthen your own will to the point where giving up isn't even an option.

I discussed this with my boss once. She said I'd make a very good shinto.

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Xanthine
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posted April 30, 2002 20:02     Click Here to See the Profile for Xanthine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by pawn:
or take a long drink from a cold stream. Thats where god is.

That's also where fun gut bugs are.
For reasons stated above, I'm inclined to agree with you though.

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pawn
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posted April 30, 2002 21:20     Click Here to See the Profile for pawn   Click Here to Email pawn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by macadddikt18:
if the aliens do exist, all they have to do is believe. I think i will clarify my organized religion up a bit. You don't have to have it. You can find God anywhere. The only way you will get to God is through his son Jesus Christ. Organized religion provides you with more of a family of support. there is no other way to God.


John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

if you don't believe in Him, then you ain't going to the father. Sure, you will get condemned to hell. i find that most people have something against God, jesus or christianity, but never say what it is.
nayt



I'd like to thank you for confirming points 1 and 2 in my post above.

Religions were created by man for man, and god most likely has little to do with them. The first religion was probably thought up by some lazy cave man that was tired of hunting and gathering. So he came up with a way to get people to give him all he wanted to eat for free.

Probably went something like this:

Dork the lazy caveman: "Damn i'm tired of hunting and gathering. What can I do to make it easier for me? Wait I know just the thing!!"

Dork runs up to the other cavepeople with a frightened look on his face and says:

Dork: "The gods of thunder and lightning have said to me that we should leave food out for them on this big flat rock. They will come and take it in the night and will bless us with good hunting and much gathering."

Gronk the other caveman: "How come we didn't hear them say this?"

Dork: "The gods have told me they will only speak through me. Anyone who doesn't listen will be struck down by the god of lightning."

Gronk: "Oh, well we better listen to them then. Gather the best fruit and grains, and place it on the rock."

Dork: "Don't forget to give them some mastadon meat. They told me they love it, and would give extra good hunting and gathering if we add it in."

Gronk: "ok, add in some mastadon meat. You know Dork, you should be in a special position in our tribe since you talk with the gods."

Dork: "Thats just what the gods told me to get you to do next. You are so smart Gronk. The gods say that I, Dork, shall from now on be known as a....uh.....errr.....uhhh....ahhh...a priest. Yeah thats it, a priest"

All other cavemen: "yea, hail Dork!! Priest of the gods of thunder and lightning."

Dork: "And the gods have told me that Gronk shall be made Chief of the tribe, and shall remain chief as long as the offerings are left for them once a week."

Gronk: "Did the gods say I would get my pick of the ladies?"

Dork: "Uhh, yeah sure. As do I. But if you ever fail to leave an offering then the gods will strike you down."

Gronk: "Why do they not threaten to strike you down?"

Dork: "Who will talk with the gods then."

Gronk: "Good point. Well I don't want to be struck down so i'll make sure they have all the food they can ever want.

Dork: "Good job gronk. You know, I think this is the begining of a beautiful friendship"

The End.

Oh and Xanthine, no one said that god was nice all the time.


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GameMaster
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posted April 30, 2002 21:47     Click Here to See the Profile for GameMaster   Click Here to Email GameMaster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nayt, I would like to see you defend your faith with more than a book. Granted that it is said to be the word of "God," but there are lots of much older religons that have said the same about other sacred texts. So, either find a way to lend your book athority over the other texts, or prove what the book says. I am open-minded enough to convert to any religon that can withstand my (admitedly relentless) questioning.

I honest believe your lord is the same lord as the wiccan goddess, the Buddah, the Chinees Chi and Toa, the Japanees Ki, Star Wars' "Force" and the matter that universe is made of. I believe that if God is omnipotent, then he has the ability to do anything imaginable. Which does include become anything, which mean that God is void and without form, and God would have not created man in his own image, but created a universe in which humans would eventually evolve. Creation and Evolution are not mutally exclusive. Which means that Man created their own image (avatar if you happen to be Buddist or a Krishna). As for the SON of god, wouldn't all creatures be sons/daughters of what ever creator there was?

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Xanthine
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posted April 30, 2002 22:21     Click Here to See the Profile for Xanthine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by pawn:


Oh and Xanthine, no one said that god was nice all the time.


He's going to lose believers if He keeps playing tricks like that. I for one have turned my allegiance to Potable Aqua and Cipro.

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MightyJoeSakic
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posted May 01, 2002 03:46     Click Here to See the Profile for MightyJoeSakic   Click Here to Email MightyJoeSakic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think more important than which religious track is right or wrong is the question.........

Assuming god exists: Does he have a Mac or a PC?

~Thom


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spungo
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posted May 01, 2002 04:17     Click Here to See the Profile for spungo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MightyJoeSakic:
I think more important than which religious track is right or wrong is the question.........

Assuming god exists: Does he have a Mac or a PC?

~Thom


Maybe He uses a cross-compiler ... sorry, that was unforgivable...

But we know He likes all of us here - "blessed are the geeks for they shall inherit the Earth."

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snupy
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posted May 01, 2002 07:05     Click Here to See the Profile for snupy   Click Here to Email snupy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I thought that was the meek.I like your version better.

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Janeway
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posted May 01, 2002 08:34     Click Here to See the Profile for Janeway   Click Here to Email Janeway     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I, Janeway, have had revealed to me, the holy truth. God is a gaming geek, playing a cosmic version of The Sims. We are all Sims. None can withstand this truth. If we are not upright, righteous Sims, we shall rot forever in a tiny garbage-filled apartment with no maid. Some may still ask, why do bad things happen to good people if the Game God is loving? Because, even the Game God has to get up and get something to drink...that's when evil abounds and things such as war, famine, and Microsoft happen.


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On a more serious note, my views on religion.... The more I see, the more I dislike organized religion. The only thing it's ever done for me, personally, is give me hell on earth (I suffer/ed from scrupulosity for half my life). I would like to believe in a god/dess (and a part of me does, I think, either that or it's the OCD--would a chemical imbalance count as faith?), and I think it's possible there is one. But for the most part, I don't see any evidence that it's so. Still, I entertain the possibility.

quote:
macaddikt18 said:
But if you seek him, he will reveal himself to you.


He hasn't yet, and I've been seeking for ten years. I do hope he gives a sign before I pass on.

On another note, how will aliens know if no one tells them? I haven't seen any missionary envoys to the stars yet.

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spungo
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posted May 01, 2002 08:43     Click Here to See the Profile for spungo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Janeway:
I haven't seen any missionary envoys to the stars yet.

Hm. One wonders what their position is on that.

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greycat
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posted May 01, 2002 09:54     Click Here to See the Profile for greycat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
I haven't seen any missionary envoys to the stars yet.

quote:
Hm. One wonders what their position is on that.

http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,39977,00.html

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spungo
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posted May 01, 2002 09:59     Click Here to See the Profile for spungo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by greycat:
http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,39977,00.html

Ah, man. Imagine the mess - there'd be stuff everywhere!

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+Andrew
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posted May 01, 2002 17:19     Click Here to See the Profile for +Andrew   Click Here to Email +Andrew     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't believe in one, because I see that as the simplest explanation for things. Humans have thought a lot of phenomena were simply caused by a higher power, but we've since discovered how many of these things work. No doubt we'll continue to learn.

As far as creation vs. evolution goes, I think it's relatively pointless to debate the issue. If there is truly a god as described by most religions (omnipotent, all-powerful), you couldn't prove that what appears to be random evolution isn't actually what this god intends to happen.

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GameMaster
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posted May 02, 2002 15:54     Click Here to See the Profile for GameMaster   Click Here to Email GameMaster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
+Andy, If god is omni-everything, then he'd also HAVE TO be non-linar, which leaves us with two options:
1.) Predestiny,
2.) Multipule outcomes

While I agree that science has proven that nature's law's of physics is responsible for a lot things we once believed a god was responsible for, it hasn't managed to touch the philisophical questions that allow science to be proven. Remeber that without Philosophy proving that we can learn about the external world, we wouldn't have been able to go anywhere from there. The points at which philosophy, science and religon all come together is where the real wars will happen as they all advance...

I might also point out that science will be limited by the fact that so much of it is based on two assumtions, and until proven (one way or the other) scientific advancement won't be able to tackle the major philisophical questions:
1.) Ocum's Razor
2.) Princible of Normality

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Bregalad
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posted May 02, 2002 19:14     Click Here to See the Profile for Bregalad   Click Here to Email Bregalad     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by greycat:
If you still think that there's any symmetry between the elliptical orbits of planets and the motions of electrons around the nucleus of an atom, you haven't studied enough physics yet. Now fire a single photon at the barrier

I have a simple question for you. How can you possibly fire a single photon? Better question, how do you define a single photon? Even the emission caused by the orbital decay of a single electron isn't instantaneous in any frame of reference. As such there is an emission of light over a period of time. We may call this shortest possible emission a photon but I don't see where it differs from a longer emission that could be defined as two photons. It seems like a rather arbitrary definition to take a wave burst and describe it as a particle. As your example shows, light and other forms of radiation behave as waves when viewed from some perspectives and as particles when viewed as others. Maybe at some point in my schooling I was given a believable definition of photon, but most of what I learned in physics classes has vanished from my brain. In the absence of a better explanation for memory loss I'll blame the second law of thermodynamics and go off into a corner mumbling that some never understood and long forgotten Green's function probably applies to the situation.

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TheAnnoyedCockroach
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posted May 02, 2002 20:07     Click Here to See the Profile for TheAnnoyedCockroach   Click Here to Email TheAnnoyedCockroach     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I believe in God. So call me ignorant, call me stupid, call me whatever you wish. I've heard it all. Numerous times. Yet I cling to this belief that He's out there somewhere.

I don't think Christianity is the One way. I don't think there is any "one" way to get to Heaven. Maybe Christianity's just the easiest.

There. Tell your friends. You met a Christian who doesn't claim to have all the answers, or the only way to salvation. I'm open minded.

So like I said, I belive in God. I say He exists. He certainly saved my ass today. You may not think of God in the same way that I do. I don't expect everybody to share my particular view of God.

One more thing, and I promise that I'm done writing this post. Many people say that the whole "believe or you're going to hell" thing turns 'em off. So here's my solution. I'm a Christian. God'll listen to me, I think. (Hold on, you may or may not get offended or say "wow, this is cheezy") So what I'll do is I'll ask him one thing. I'll ask him to save all of those who don't believe. Because I don't like the thought of eternal torment. And I don't want anybody else to go through it.

I'm in yo' corner.

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GameMaster
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posted May 05, 2002 19:58     Click Here to See the Profile for GameMaster   Click Here to Email GameMaster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mr. Roach, what I was asking is WHY do you believe in a god. I am looking for philisophical/scientific/logical arguments that lead people to what they believe, one way or the other. I am glad to see that you are tolerant (Which is after all what Jesus yaught (yes I believe there was a Jesus on this earth, but don't except him as the "sole son of and phisical manifestatin of "God")), but what I was looking for is reason and rational thinking that makes people chose their religon.

So, please share with me what lead you to the christian faith, what about it called to you?

Bregalad, the expeirement he is citing is actually quite a hot topic in the scientific comunity. I personally think that to solve this one we must go smaller... I think that behavior of particles smaller than sub-atomic particals are some how responsibl for this odd occurance. But, I'm damit Jim I a programer not a quantum physisit.

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LifetimeTrekker
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posted May 05, 2002 22:34     Click Here to See the Profile for LifetimeTrekker   Click Here to Email LifetimeTrekker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
Mr. Roach, what I was asking is WHY do you believe in a god. I am looking for philisophical/scientific/logical arguments that lead people to what they believe, one way or the other.

Ah, now THERE'S a good way to approach this--it wasn't made clear in the original post. Introspection of "why do I believe or not believe in God?" is something I wish everyone would explore.

I do belive in a higher power--while I won't expound on this too much, my belief is that I am a part of God, as is every thing by which I am surrounded. I believe that God created me out of himself--as Janeway suggested, God got bored and created the ultimate version of The Sims to amuse himself--we've just lost sight of the fact we're in a game.

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snupy
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posted May 05, 2002 22:55     Click Here to See the Profile for snupy   Click Here to Email snupy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"I am looking for philisophical/scientific/logical arguments that lead people to what they believe, one way or the other."

People believe in God because they need to. Some people comfort themselves with drugs, alcohol, food..whatever, but others need to comfort themselves with religion. I wish I could find the comfort in it that some of my friends/family do, but it's just not there for me. 12 years of Catholic school will do that to you.

I have seen supposed "good" Catholics who attend mass every Sunday, go to confession, receive communion, and walk out complaining about how the minorities are taking over the church. Now-technically those people will go to heaven, but I won't-even though I'm a good person, do volunteer work, and include people of all races as my friends.

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GameMaster
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posted May 06, 2002 06:20     Click Here to See the Profile for GameMaster   Click Here to Email GameMaster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would like to believe that peoples belief in god stems from more than a mere need for comfort, stems from more than a need to believe in something greater. If that is all it were then I think we'd see more people worshiping earthly things and people as deities ("I pray to grat and power TV, please grant me a 12 hour Frankienstien marathon"). Moreover, I know why I chose to believe in not only a deity, but also Karma and magick; and, it wasn't out of a need for comfort it was out of looking at other religons. I was raised without being forced to follow any religon, and so I began to explore what I believe by reading things about religons. I found that a lot of religons are made up of the same basic ideas, just exicuted differntly. When I traced them back as far as I could I realized that a lot of things are derived from older Druidic beliefs. The reason that I accepted magick as truth, even though I believe firmly in the teachings of science, was becasue of what I've seen.

Now, before every rolls their eyes at this "youngin' who foolishly believes in magic" I'd like to say what exsactly magick is ad isn't. It isn't the hocus pocus that you see portrayed in the movies. It cannot force you to act against your will. It isn't the work of false idols or a/the devil. It is witchcraft, derived from putting the words "witch" and "craft" together. That is exsactly what it is, it is a craft (or collection of them) that are preformed by "witches." The simplest mmost consise and true meaning I've seen was "The creative programing of energies for a purpose," which is a broad definition that makes any creative act into Magick. Doesn't this fit well with the musician who entrances his audience, the movie that holds you spellbound or the painting that inspires your next project. Anyone who believes in karma is only a baby step away from understanding Magick.

Now, to twist the topic to make this a bit more intresting: who here believes in ghosts, an after life, a soul, reincarnation and/or karma/chi/ki/aura/force; and, what lead you to believe in it?

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greycat
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posted May 06, 2002 08:18     Click Here to See the Profile for greycat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm not a physicist, and certainly not an experimental quantum physicist. But a quick Google search turned up a description of the two-slit experiment with single photon interference.

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dragonman97
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posted May 06, 2002 16:19     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonman97   Click Here to Email dragonman97     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by macadddikt18:
the simple answer is yes there is a God out there. You can find him in orginized religion, [u]but only in christianity[/u]. [...]
Nayt


Sorry, Nayt, but that's just wrong. I'm Catholic, and I do not believe that we are truly the only people who will be saved, or can understand the presence of God. Are you saying that Jewish people cannot see God, or Muslims? I'm just finishing my Asian Religions course, and they have their own realization of deities, but still have faith in varying respects, and there's nothing wrong with that. I have Palestinian friends, and I in no way think less of them, or believe that they won't be saved, or their belief is unfounded. On the contrary, one of these friends is the president of the Muslim Student Association here, and I respect her more because she, like others, have come to choose what they believe in, and have a deep belief in it, rather that having it drilled into them as they grow up, where it may not truly settle in. And previously, I took Religions of Japan, and think a lot of Shinto (the way of the Kami), and this embraces Xanthine's feelings of nature... There is really something fascinating about the Shinto way of intuiting Kami in nature and everywhere, just being in tune with things. You never know, they could be right as well. Other faiths believe they are the only one who are right, they will say that we cannot know 'their god.' And you can know of the existance of God by St. Thomas Acquinas' Five Proofs, which I do not have time to post (use google if interested).

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TheAnnoyedCockroach
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posted May 06, 2002 19:33     Click Here to See the Profile for TheAnnoyedCockroach   Click Here to Email TheAnnoyedCockroach     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why do people feel the need to believe in something greater?

Hmm... we as humans shape our worldviews through our perceptions. If one was to look at the world without a belief system (I'm counting science in this statement), then the world would seem like a meaningless sequence of random acts. Our lives would have no real purpose; staying alive would be a worthless effort. So we create these belief systems. We make reasons for things to happen, earnestly trying to conform this chaotic world to rigid rules that we can rely upon to give us guidance, stability.

Why do I believe in God? For one thing, I was born into it. I won't pretend that my upbringing didn't affect my choice. I do it for the comfort of knowing that somebody "up there" has a personal interest in me. I do it because I truly feel at peace when I'm praying, meditating, or just contemplating. It gave me answers, stability, and guidance. Just as some find their answers in Science, or in Buddhism, or Shinto, or Zen.

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