just thought i'd throw in a historical perspective.

anyway, why do i believe in god? it's an inert response. it's my personal need to believe there's something out there greater than i am. i don't have any answers beyond that, so i won't bother making some great case here. everyone has a different opinion, none of which are right or wrong, the end. i'm currently christian, but i believe there are other roads to god.

by the way, does the idea of being buried at death creep y'all out, or is it just me?

quote:

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Originally posted by bucketofsquids:

by the way, does the idea of being buried at death creep y'all out, or is it just me?

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That's why I want to be cremated. Harvest my organs and burn the rest. Unless I fall in a crevasse. Then they can just leave me and let the ice do to me what it does to rock.

I, again, am not a Wiccan, but a mono-thesitic tradecraft witch, with moral ideas steming from social contract theory, Kant's Critique of Practicle[/i(sp?)[i]Reason and the eastern ideas about Chi and ki. I believe that all people (well, all religous people and scienctists who hold to the laws of physics) believe in the same deity, but have diffrent ideas about how to honor him. I believe that is because he doesn't wish to be honored, and so humans gave birth to religon to honor a being so great it need not be worshiped. That isn't to say that I don't respect and worship it, even though I don't believe it is required.

As for Jesus, I believe he was man. I believe he was a good man, and may even have done some amazing things. But, to believe that an intelligent energy capable of creating this universe would allow himself the pains of being crusified for removing the sin of such a small creature? If Jesus was the incarnation of a Messiah, a Christ or a God like creature, what makes us think that Humans are speical enough that he wouldn't also become a spider, a cockroach (and not an annoyed one, either) and/or every and anything else alive in the universe for a little while.... Then again, if the deity is omni-knowing omni-powerful, he'd have all the sensations of all things that ever lived, is living or will live at all time, right?

I am not flaming you for your post neo, I am just trying to understand why you believe as you do. I am also trying to share why I personally don't... Who knows we may be able to convince eachother of the other position so that in a week or two we'll be arguing the other person's position against each eachother.

Digressing.

quote:

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Originally posted by GameMaster:
I believe that all people (well, all religous people and scienctists who hold to the laws of physics) believe in the same deity, but have diffrent ideas about how to honor him. I believe that is because he doesn't wish to be honored, and so humans gave birth to religon to honor a being so great it need not be worshiped. That isn't to say that I don't respect and worship it, even though I don't believe it is required.

See this is part of what im trying to say....Thats ALMOST EXACTLY what I'm trying to say..I'm just not eloquent about it

As for Jesus, I believe he was man. I believe he was a good man, and may even have done some amazing things. But, to believe that an intelligent energy capable of creating this universe would allow himself the pains of being crusified for removing the sin of such a small creature? If Jesus was the incarnation of a Messiah, a Christ or a God like creature, what makes us think that Humans are speical enough that he wouldn't also become a spider, a cockroach (and not an annoyed one, either) and/or every and anything else alive in the universe for a little while.... Then again, if the deity is omni-knowing omni-powerful, he'd have all the sensations of all things that ever lived, is living or will live at all time, right?

ah this is where we differ though...I do happen to believe that Jesus was God incarnate...but not the only one, I'd the same is possible for buddah and muhamed etc too.....but i digress because it's on this matter that I really have no idea what to believe.

I am not flaming you for your post neo, I am just trying to understand why you believe as you do. I am also trying to share why I personally don't... Who knows we may be able to convince eachother of the other position so that in a week or two we'll be arguing the other person's position against each eachother.

Digressing.

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quote:

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Originally posted by neotatsu:
so he sent an email to [email protected] and the email actually went through....

---

code:

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$ whois heaven.com
[...]
Registrant:
   Time Warner Cable Broadband Applications  Time Warner Cable Broadband Applications 
   Time Warner Cable Broadband Applications 
   10066 Orcas Ave
   Sunland, California 91040
   United States
[...]
   Registrar: Go Daddy Software (http://registrar.godaddy.com)
   Domain Name: HEAVEN.COM
      Created on: 17-Jun-93
      Expires on: 16-Jun-04
      Last Updated on: 08-Apr-02

---

quote:

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he also tried [email protected] ...the email went through but he got a nasty flame email that was obviously automated that told him to screw off

---

code:

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$ whois hell.com
[...]
Registrant:
HELL.COM, Limited Partnership (HELL3-DOM)
   201 broadway suite 400
   santa monica, CA 90401
   US
[...]
   Record expires on 03-Aug-2002.
   Record created on 02-Aug-1995.
   Database last updated on 11-Jun-2002 11:03:21 EDT.

---

Now isn't that interesting...

Californa is a good fit for hell, and I can see why some people would think it was heaven. I was almost positive that Sweeden (hmmmmm.. swedish girls) or Amsterdam(sp?) (At least so I've heard) would have been a much better choice.

quote:

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Originally posted by GameMaster:
I was almost positive that Sweeden (hmmmmm.. swedish girls) or Amsterdam(sp?) (At least so I've heard) would have been a much better choice.

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I've had a guy call me a Sisco-girl before...eh.

I'M NOT A GIRL, I'M A GEEK

Damn thing gave me a link to the Geek Code. I KNOW that already, damnit.

quote:

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Originally posted by Twinkle Toes:
Thank you for clearing that up for me, Trekker...

I was looking at more witching sites last night, and was just wondering: if the pentagram is used in some Wiccan ceremonies, then why is it also shown as apart of, oh say Pagan rituals in movies and such? I mean, I know that others get the wrong idea about it and that's why they confuse it with Satanic things, but wouldn't those religions (Pagan mostly) protest against it, and wouldn't we all then have a clearer understanding of what it really was in truth?

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Sorry I'm chiming in so late...

The Pentagram is probably the most misunderstood of symbols, primarily because most of the meaning behind the symbol has remained hidden.

The Pentagram proper (one point up, two points down) is not Satanic per se. Meanings for this symbol include: the Wiccan religion; Pagan religions in general; the occult in general; the five elements of earth, air, fire, water, and spirit; the dominion of spirit (the top point) over the other four elements; the name of Jesus (yod he shin vav he with shin -- for spirit -- at the top); the dominion of Jesus over the material world; a human being; the microcosm (for which the hexagram is the macrocosm); Earth/Malkuth in general; protection from earthly and infernal powers.

Satanists ("black magicians" and/or those belonging to groups such as Church of Satan) use a different pentagram, called an Inverted or Adverse Pentagram, with two points up and one point down. This represents: a goat's head; the supremacy of matter over the spirit; the name of Satan.

Confusing one for the other is akin to confusing the crucifix with an upside-down crucifix.

Why does Hollywood confuse these? Because it looks cool! It's the same reason why Hollywood heroes can be seen violating basic gun safety rules all the time. And, frankly, there aren't enough knowledgeable people to really get Hollywood to change things.

Except that the upside crusifix is the symbol of peter, as he refused be crusified right side up out of respect for his beloved Jesus.

I think that it is also worth mentioning that even beofore the neo-pagan revolution and the birth of the modern Wiccan religon, there where Christian Witchcraft in the bristish ocuppied celtic regions and Cristian Voodoo practitioners in St.Louis and colonized portions of Africa. While the orgin of these fussions lie in religous perscution, the resulting religons are rather enlightened.

I believe that there is a god, but I think of it more as the sum of all mater and energy. I think that we are in "the mind" of god, that all things in this universe are part of one giant puzzle... I believe the whole puzzle is intelligent (or at least emotional and moral). I know it sounds flaky, but what do we really know about this thing we call the mind? Seems "the mind" is made up of electrons jumping from one place to another in patterns that make up "intelligence," and all matter really is movement of larger objects according to patterns which could in turn generate a higher intelligence that we (being parts of it) could never truly realize.

Just a thought.

First off I will say that I am a Christian and belong to a denomination and can see that there are problems with that sort of a setup but I also see good that comes of it and I may explain just read the post.

I will respond to the question asked along time ago in the posts as to why I belive in God. I have had a personal relationship with him. Ok for all of you that do not belive you go hrmmm this guy is on crack or something realy good and I want some too. Well I know it sounds funny but I spend time praying and listening for God's direction in my life. I don't hear an audible voice but I think that God can tell me what he wants me to know through multiple channels that will be coming independant of each other and saying the same thing, as a general rule. secondly I have seen things that I would clasify as miricles. There was a time when I saw a lady that hadn't walked for over 12 years come up to a presentation of the gosple that a group I was with was doing. She had been told by several differant doctors that she would never be able to walk again. Well a group of us went around her and started praying for her and to make a long story short she walked that night and then walked into church the next day without help from her husband (granted it was only about 25-30 feet but still for someone that hadn't walked in 12 years it was a long way.) We met her doctors 2 or 3 days later to confirm that end of the deal and they couldn't explain what had happened. Ok I could go on and on with stories but those are the biggies.

Now as to wether or not everyone else is going to hell??? I think so, but, and I stress but, I have a slightly differant definition of hell than most do. I do not see it as a pit of fire but as the total absense of God. We will all come into his presence to be judged and then those that belive and have excepted him as savior will be able to stay and praise him for eternity and those that did not belive will be forced from his presence in the "pit." I don't mind other people believing other things because I can not prove mine is right and theirs is wrong. I personaly don't think theirs is correct but then again they don't think mine is correct as a general rule so I agree to disagree with them and we go on to what we agree on. Like biking is cool as well as playing video games and watching movies.

I know that there are those of you that will call it all a chemical reaction in the brain, others say that it is all just something I make up to deal with reality, others just hate and call names and don't listen ... I don't want to be part of any of these as I beleive that, true it is a reaction in the brain because if there were no reations in the brain we would be dead, I know God and do what I can to please him.

Creation stuff coming up. I have never seen real proof of evelution. I have seen tons of theories but no real evidence to suport it. I mean with the 4 million species out there you would think that we would have seen at leaste one that made a benificial mutation. I know it takes billions of years but there are billions of humans alone. There are billions of ants in my backyard as well but I have never seen one of them grow more legs that worked, wings on the workers... the only mutations that I have ever seen are dysfunctional. The entropy theory would also lead me not to believe in evelution as the universe is moving to a more and more disorganized state then why would genetics work opposite that? I duno that is just my mindset and maybe someone could fill me in. I only skimmed the middle posts in this thread as it is getting late and it may have been covered already.

I would have to say that organized relegion is at times good and at times bad. I know that In my denomination there is politics. Well in any organization there are politics but my particular church has chosen not to realy participate in those denomination wide "games." We feel we have a higher calling than to grab power and presige. We do witnessing but not by preaching but by opening up our gym to local scate boarders and letting them hang out with us while doing what they enjoy. We don't look down on you if you come in the door high but we sit you down next to someone who can answer any questions you might have or help you if you puke or something. If you want to become a member, which lets you vote on things like wether or not to build more onto the building or the most effective way to set up the food pound, we do require you to meet certain requirements but only because we want you to be a dedicated christian in occordance with the bible.

As far as I'm concerned, there is no god. I believe this for several reasons. First and formost, it was dreamed up by a human mind. How arrogant are we to think that any ideas we have about a higher power are correct? Think about it: we live in a solar system that is part of a galaxy made up of billions of solar systems, which is part of a universe made up of even greater billions of galaxies. If there is a true god, what would motivate him to center his plan around our tiny planet (as some organized religions would have you believe)? Why would he choose our species as the only one worthy of his wisdom? In case you haven't noticed, human beings are capable of some pretty terrible evils.

I believe that the idea of god was created becaues it was, at the time, necessary to maintain order within society. What was to stop someone from commiting murder before there were laws and governments to enforce them? The idea of eternal damnation ought to do it. I believe the idea of god is sustained today because people are simply unable to cope with the fact that they have no heavenly support complex. That they are truly alone in life, and that they have to accept responsibility for their actions, good and bad. The human race simply cannot accept that some things happen without divine cause. It's easy to blame somthing bad that has happened to you on god, or simply say that it was part of some divine "master plan", when in reality is probably just bad luck, stupidity, your own fault, or a combination of the three.

I believe that, through science, humanity can understand the universe better. People have asked me wether or not i think that humanity could discover a "theory of everything" to completely explain the workings of the universe. In my oppinion the question is moot, because the very nature of science is to never stop questioning, and in a universe as big as ours, there will never be a short supply of questions. To put it another way, if we ever did come up with such a theory through science, we would never know it, because the same science that created the theory would question it to the end of the human race.

I've also been asked that if god did not create the universe, than what did. My answer is simple. I don't know. I don't need to know. Never in my day-to-day live have i never encountered a situation in which i needed to know. Really, why does anyone need to know, other than to satisfy human curiosity? From my point of view, it's already happened, so even if you did know, what difference would it make, it's not like you can change it, or have gained anything from knowing. I understand that believing in god, and thus knowing the source of the universe, is a source of security for some, but as stated earlier, this really doesn't apply to me as far as i'm concerned.

Please note that the above is not ment to offend anyone, I'm simply very passionite about my beliefs. To those of you that do believe in god I say "good for you", and i honestly think that they'll lead a happier live because of it. I, however, could never do this after experiencing all that i have and thinking about this question as much as i have. But anyway, just my thoughts....

If there is a true god, what would motivate him to center his plan around our tiny planet (as some organized religions would have you believe)? Why would he choose our species as the only one worthy of his wisdom?
I don't think we are the center of "his" universe, or even the only life in it that has tried understand what "he" is. Granted that the idea that there is only one true religon in all the universe is assinine, but it doesn't disprove his exsistance, just the validity of orginized religon's "These are the words of god, so even if proved false we shall follow them."

I believe that the idea of god was created becaues it was, at the time, necessary to maintain order within society. What was to stop someone from commiting murder before there were laws and governments to enforce them?
Morality. The universal geneticly encoded laws by which humans typically act. In fact, orginized religon seems to have been more often the reason for killing than not killing. If we look at other animals (we humans are animals after all), you'll notice they seem to genetically follow a certian set of morals simly from instinct, and a set of mores impressioned on them by their social group. I do believe that an understanding of morality may be one of the reasons that the idea od a deity came forth, much like gravity was originally just thought of for the reason we stay stuck to the ground, it wasn't untill newton that we realized the other many things gravity is responcible for.

The human race simply cannot accept that some things happen without divine cause. It's easy to blame somthing bad that has happened to you on god, or simply say that it was part of some divine "master plan", when in reality is probably just bad luck, stupidity, your own fault, or a combination of the three.
I believe that even the devoutly religious still hold people responsible for their own actions. The idea of a "master plan" is more of an assumption about time, not about a deity, although I can see why these two arise so often together. As for "bad luck," doesn't that imply some type of intelligent force? Like a sort of Karama or Ki/Chi? In that case, you are excepting some kind of intlligence that is at least slightly akin to a god. "Luck" is an intresting thing, that too should e debated for it's own scientific and statistical merit.

I've also been asked that if god did not create the universe, than what did. My answer is simple. I don't know. I don't need to know. Never in my day-to-day live have i never encountered a situation in which i needed to know. Really, why does anyone need to know, other than to satisfy human curiosity?
Did we ever need to know anything? Couldn't we have stayed up in the trees and never invented the little green sheet of paper or the digitial watches? Perhaps we would have been happier mucking about in the trees than we are now, having created cities, traffic jams, guns and war... Ah, but then, we'd never have engaged in science for the only reason science exsists: To satidfy curiousity and to try to learn the truths of the universe. Why do I NEED to know that the earth is NOT a flat plane that all things orbiting, being pushed by angels across the skies? Because we are human and we want to know. That is why we came down from the trees, and that is what allowed us to make our digital watches.

Please note that the above is not ment to offend anyone, I'm simply very passionite about my beliefs. To those of you that do believe in god I say "good for you", and i honestly think that they'll lead a happier live because of it. I, however, could never do this after experiencing all that i have and thinking about this question as much as i have. But anyway, just my thoughts....
As I think anyone who sees the energy and magick of the universe will be much happier, but then I know it is hard to elieve in something with out proof, physical or mathmatical... But I think that is only a mater of time, as groups that study metaphysics and parapsychology push into the realm of the unknowen, I think we'll be suprised to find how much "power" there is in the universe.

This is only meant to expand our thoughts and to ring to life more intelligent deate on this subject. Without deate truth cannot be reached.

quote:

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Originally posted by GameMaster:
First and formost, it was dreamed up by a human mind. How arrogant are we to think that any ideas we have about a higher power are correct?
Deep, while I agree that humans are egotistical; is it not possible that the universe shares a creator that set everything in motion and hasn't interfered since?

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Certainly. The greatest scientists of the 19th and 20th centuries, the men and women who have looked most deeply into the structure of the atom and the universe around us believe(d) that this universe was set in motion by a creator. I see no reason to believe differently.

Keeping an open mind, I've looked at the universe, or what we know of it, and came to the conclussion that it seems likely it was created by an inteligent being. Is it egotistical? Not unless I think only I know the truth about this beig or believe that I am this being.

There's a slight difference between the theorys of gravity and creationalism. For one, we understand gravity, we know it's ways, and we are even able to control it to a degree; somthing that could never be said about a divine being. We have solid proof of it's existance, which to a true scientist simply means that we haven't come up with a better theory to explain it yet. That is the nature of science: to examine all of the facts, come up with a theory that best suits the data, and continue to question it until it is disproven, and start the process over again. Religion, however doesn't follow these rules. Religion is all about accepting somthing for which you have no proof, somthing accepted on simple faith.

In fact, orginized religon seems to have been more often the reason for killing than not killing.

You do have a good point here.

I believe that even the devoutly religious still hold people responsible for their own actions. The idea of a "master plan" is more of an assumption about time, not about a deity, although I can see why these two arise so often together. As for "bad luck," doesn't that imply some type of intelligent force? Like a sort of Karama or Ki/Chi? In that case, you are excepting some kind of intlligence that is at least slightly akin to a god. "Luck" is an intresting thing, that too should e debated for it's own scientific and statistical merit.

Perhaps I should elaborate on my definition of luck. I don't think that people are "lucky" or "unlucky", I simply use the word to describe the random effects of life. For example, if someone falls into an open manhole and dies, that is simply bad luck (according to my definition). As far as karama goes, I simply don't belive in it. It just doesn't make sense to me after seeing so many people go unpunished for acts of evil, while good people almost constantly have bad things happen to them. The theory just doesn't hold up in my mind.

Did we ever need to know anything? Couldn't we have stayed up in the trees and never invented the little green sheet of paper or the digitial watches? Perhaps we would have been happier mucking about in the trees than we are now, having created cities, traffic jams, guns and war... Ah, but then, we'd never have engaged in science for the only reason science exsists: To satidfy curiousity and to try to learn the truths of the universe. Why do I NEED to know that the earth is NOT a flat plane that all things orbiting, being pushed by angels across the skies? Because we are human and we want to know. That is why we came down from the trees, and that is what allowed us to make our digital watches.

This comment was not meant to be that far-reaching as you have taken it. I simply meant that I am perfectly happy in my ignorance. In my oppinion, no-one really knows what happened in the beginning (if there even was a corporeal begining). The best we will ever be able to do is theorize, and the theories of science are simply more convincing than the theories of religion (but that's just me).

Really, in my oppinion, it doesn't matter what you think about the forces behind the universe. I don't think it makes a difference in life if you choose to follow the path of religion, that of sicence, or choose to combine the two. I have chosen to follow the path of science because it was the right choice for me (for the reasons I have attempted to outline above). This, however, is a far-cry from saying that this is right for everyone. If the religious path is right for you, then who am I to tell you your wrong? I don't know what's going on. What I would like people to accept is that they really don't know what's going on either. Everyone has a theory, but no-one has a way of proving that they are right.

quote:

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I'M NOT A GIRL, I'M A GEEK

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Ah, but you've got it wrong! You're a geek girl. Which, of course, is much better.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bregalad:
Certainly. The greatest scientists of the 19th and 20th centuries, the men and women who have looked most deeply into the structure of the atom and the universe around us believe(d) that this universe was set in motion by a creator. I see no reason to believe differently.

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quote:

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Originally posted by TheAnnoyedCockroach:
Ah, but you've got it wrong! You're a geek girl. Which, of course, is much better.

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------------------
I love you, Bees... and you know it!

hee hee... forgot where i heard that one.. but i figured i'd put it up. =)

quote:

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Originally posted by Nightangel99:
Dude, Yes. There is a God, and he loves you, and he will prove it when the time comes. People always wonder why God lets bad things happen to people. The truth is, people do bad things to people. But God loves them all anyway. And there is proof of Noah's ark, a great flood ect. ect. People always say that the universe was created by such and such atoms coming together, and such, no, God created the universe, even if that was true, where did those atoms come from? Don't forget...

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We knew some force held us to this earth before we knew what gravity was, and while we may never beable to prove the exsistance of a higher deity, we probably won't know all there is to know about the big bang either. As for my relgious beliefs I continue to modify them to fit the data that is being proven in the lab and what I hath seen with my two eyes.

Really, in my oppinion, it doesn't matter what you think about the forces behind the universe. I don't think it makes a difference in life if you choose to follow the path of religion, that of sicence, or choose to combine the two. I have chosen to follow the path of science because it was the right choice for me (for the reasons I have attempted to outline above). This, however, is a far-cry from saying that this is right for everyone. If the religious path is right for you, then who am I to tell you your wrong? I don't know what's going on. What I would like people to accept is that they really don't know what's going on either. Everyone has a theory, but no-one has a way of proving that they are right.

While I am not saying I am definitivly correct, and I realize that I will never be 100% right, as we small ape-deceneded life forms are far from perfect, what I am saying is that all religons and even science agree on some small basic points. Science cannot exsist without philosphy (as it is Descarte who "proved" learning anything about our external world is possible, and his "proof" was dependant on a deity), and philosphy and religon meet on some very intresting places. The exsistance of a universal legislative, a mind/body problem that seems to illustrate a "soul" without a "body" at least seems logical and the exsistance of a higher power that seemingly has intelligence.

I recently had a intresting talk with a Christian, a Muslum, a Toaist and a scientific purist. It was odd at how much we all agreed, and how often the only difference was in the terms we used.

quote:

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Originally posted by GameMaster:
I recently had a intresting talk with a Christian, a Muslum, a Toaist and a scientific purist. It was odd at how much we all agreed, and how often the only difference was in the terms we used.

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quote:

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Originally posted by GameMaster:
I'd love to hear to why Neo, but I am not going to push/pry.

A few you might want to sudy up on are Toaism and the various teaching that speak of Chi, energy and/or auroa. With the gifts/curse that your gifts of prophetic dreamming bring you may find that exersizing the creative programming and release of energy to have much purpose.

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