That's right, I'm outing myself, I'm a transsexual lesbian of the BSD/Macintosh school. Not exactly secrets, but now we're official. I currently support BSD web servers and plan on starting to live full-time as a woman in early November. I have a girlfriend who adores the woman I am growing into. I've been online for over a decade and once owned a 4K Radio Shack Color Computer, where I learned how to write tight and efficient code. I am not trolling. This is all true, as freaky as it may sound.

Anyone else willing to make a splash? The water's fine.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lilith von Fraumench:
Surely I'm not the only one!

That's right, I'm outing myself, I'm a transsexual lesbian of the BSD/Macintosh school. Not exactly secrets, but now we're official. I currently support BSD web servers and plan on starting to live full-time as a woman in early November. I have a girlfriend who adores the woman I am growing into. I've been online for over a decade and once owned a 4K Radio Shack Color Computer, where I learned how to write tight and efficient code. [b]I am not trolling. This is all true, as freaky as it may sound.

Anyone else willing to make a splash? The water's fine.

[/B]

---

I'm afraid you may "offend" a few of the more, er, uptight people here. But actually, they seem to have been lurking lately, if not gone, so maybe you won't be assaulted with criticisms.

I was friends with a transsexual when I went to school at NYU. He was really cool and nice. (Though I never know whether I should have said "he" or "she" - physically male but living as a woman -and attracted to women, like you are - he said it didn't matter which pronoun I used!)
Being friends with Carlo (his name) was also very interesting to me because at the time I was taking a class in Human Sexuality, and we were discussing issues of sexuality, sexual conditioning, biological gender vs. psychological gender...etc. We learned about a lot of really fascinating research that was being done in the field. Anyway, I learned a lot in that class.

Sadly, I lost touch with Carlo after I transferred to UGA.

All that aside, you are definitely not the only GLBT geek - I mean, sheer numbers would dictate that you're not! Glad to see you're a fellow Mac user! And welcome to the forums.

Thanks for the welcome, although I'm not new here--just usually too busy to post here often.

I'm not worried at all about offending someone's sensibilities, mainly because I try to be open to discussion.

Your friend Carlo sounds cool. I hope she's having fun as Caroline, or whatever name she settled upon! As for pronouns, the safe thing is to generally use the pronoun reflecting their gender presentation. So if they're living as a woman, call them "she" and they're usually happy.

I've loved Macs since I first got to use a Lisa at a trade show back in '82. Then when they made the first 68K based Mac, I was even happier--that old 4K CoCo actually used a 6809 processor, so the 68000 chip felt nice and comfy. And the GUI concept seemed so radical then, too.

Again, thanks for the welcome!

I've also heard that my former support coworker took a trip overseas (I forget which country exactly) male when he left, and female when she returned.

(The first one I mentioned did the whole counseling/year of living as a woman thing required for domestic procedures.)

Hrm. The only f->m I know personally is more of a redneck than a geek, I'm afraid.

And for future reference, don't ever say 'this is not a troll' ... it's like 'this is not a spam mail' ... if it says it, it probably is! But your second post to this thread convinced me otherwise.

(The advice about gender terms being accurate, and all.)

Anyway, as far as I know, none of these people are in the forums!

------------------
There are no questions in logic. If the question has be posed, you already have your answer.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lex:
While I claim a more "traditional" preference, I can surely relate. When asked the question, "If you could have any body that you wanted, what would it be?" My answer tends to be "beautiful female". Why? Thats easy: I find females much more attractive then I do males. I would probably like my body much more if I found myself physically attracted to it
However, I don't think I'd go for any current medical methods, nor would I just dress up.

But you're welcome here as much as any of us!

---

ROFL!
Have you seen that episode of Seinfeld, where Jerry has a girlfriend who likes to walk around naked. He doesn't know how to handle it so he asks George and Elaine if maybe he should walk around naked too. They tell him no and when he asks why, Elaine says something like, "The female body is a work of art. The male body is strictly utilitarian - simian, almost."

quote:

---

Originally posted by Parity:
Oh, in the discussion of trans, I nearly forgot to mention, that I'm a BiPolyDominant.
I know -lots- of bi-geeks, most of them het-leaning with some same-sex experiences, and a few homo-leaning with a some opposite sex experiences. Okay, anyway, back to packing for my trip out to see my (opposite-sex, if you must know) submissive.

Parity Odd

---

That's all great! Hope you have fun with your submissive.... BTW, I'm domme and have a sub of my own, so I can really relate.

If anyone's really that curious about me, I have a blog at http://lilith.foolspress.com/ including links to photos and the like.

Oh, and about your comment re: "Don't say it's not a troll": I'm a veteran of alt.slack and so pretty good at trolling. But everything I wrote in my intro was true. It seemed so troll-like, though, that I couldn't resist adding "I am not trolling" to tweak people's trollometers. Pretty effective, eh? *laughs*

Again, thanks for the great welcome.

------------------
Her Ladyship The Prophet
Rev. Dkr. St. Popess
Lilith von Fraumench,
Esquire, H.o.t.S.F., Inc.
--"Lil" for short
http://lilith.foolspress.com/

NO, REDNIVEK, I AM NOT GAY

rexthy-poo ith!

hehehe

*cracks whip*

*chains himself to wall*

MMmmMmMmmm

quote:

---

Originally posted by macwoman:
Elaine says something like, "The female body is a work of art. The male body is strictly utilitarian - simian, almost."

---

I believe an analogy was also made with a jeep regarding the male body

------------------
--Angry Rooster
"Eagles may soar, but roosters don't get sucked into jet engines."

And thanks for the clarification on the gender pronouns. I work with a couple of people who are transexuals, but i've never been able to get up the nerve to ask what they preferred.

quote:

---

Originally posted by bull3t:
i'm sure i'm going to get alot of shit for this, but i have bisexual "tendencies", with a more of a preference for women..

[b]NO, REDNIVEK, I AM NOT GAY

rexthy-poo ith!

[/B]

---

If you want to know my opinion (and you know you do) I think that everyone is, at least to some degree, bisexual. To me it just seems natural. There are so many precedents throughout history as well.

Man... I used to have a whole research-paper-like spiel on this sitting around in my head.... where did it go? Oh well. Anyway, I'm attracted to mostly to guys - I'd say a good 90% of the time or more. Even though I'm not attracted to women very often and basically consider myself hetero, I'm in no way averse to a same-sex experience. if the time feels right, why not? I'll try (almost) anything once!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nitrozac:
Hi Lilith!

---

Hey Nitrozac! How are you liking Cascadia so far? Going to pay us a visit down here in Seattle any time soon?

quote:

---

So, you've lived as a man and now you're living as a woman.

---

Mostly. At work I am still regarded as male--the legal name change is pending--but I usually keep my hair up in a femmy hairstyle, wear androgynous clothes, etc. And many of them know who I really am and are cool with it.

quote:

---

Have you noticed anything like people's attitudes being different towards you as a female? I mean, people who know you only as a female, such as the stranger on the street, the store clerk, the employer, co-workers, people like that. Have you noticed anything like people taking you less seriously, a pay-cut, even sexual harassment? What's it like having that experience as a female, knowing what it's like to be a male in a male dominated society?

---

Well, my comments will be biased, because I never enjoyed myself as a man but am loving life much more as female. So all the minuses of living as female are fairly offset by the joy it brings.

Also, Seattle is a very liberal city, and one of the few in the US that offers equal protection to transsexuals and other transgendered. I'm sure things wouldn't be quite as good elsewhere, but it's hard to say.

The biggest problems I've had have come from guys who are a bit too much into being guys, if you know what I mean. They seem to be threatened by my gender expression more than others, and yet also less likely to take me seriously as a fellow geek. Conversely, women have often been quick to offer support, although they might suffer from misconceptions as much as men. Usually it's due to that one drag queen they hung out with when they were younger or something like that.

Also, while the management here supported my transition, HR was suggesting that I use a designated unisex bathroom with a deadbolt. I responded by discussing the issue with most of my female co-workers. All of them have been completely supportive of my transition and my need to use the appropriate bathroom for my gender.

Most of the harrassment I get is more due to being transsexual than due to being female. Some people, for instance, have a hard time believing I'm not a prostitute. Even in this day and age, the idea that a TS can get by on her brains is as freaky to many people as the nature of my gender.

Also, there's the whole subject of "passing", which is a very ugly concept but one that's well ingrained at this point. I pass well enough, I think, but there's the occasional person who sees me as a transvestite and tries to make a big deal out of it. Usually such a person embarrasses their friends sufficiently that I don't have to worry about them continuing on that thread.

And on that note, I'll wait until the next post...!

------------------
Her Ladyship The Prophet
Rev. Dkr. St. Popess
Lilith von Fraumench,
Esquire, H.o.t.S.F., Inc.
--"Lil" for short
http://lilith.foolspress.com/

quote:

---

Man... I used to have a whole research-paper-like spiel on this sitting around in my head.... where did it go? Oh well. Anyway, I'm attracted to mostly to guys - I'd say a good 90% of the time or more. Even though I'm not attracted to women very often and basically consider myself hetero, I'm in no way averse to a same-sex experience. if the time feels right, why not? I'll try (almost) anything once!

---

I guess you're exposed to a whole other type of discrimination, and that requires a very strong character to cope with.

Being female, I've had a difficult time in coping with certain attitudes. Nothing is worse than walking into a store with a guy and you're the one asking the questions and the male clerk only speaks to the guy (who's not buying). I mean, I've been in situations where what I say is simply ignored, just ignored. It's frustrating, and I've often wished I was a guy. Being harrassed at work or on the street just because you're female, that so sucks. That's different than looking particularly good that day and turning a few heads, that can be fun. It's when the pigs are out there and they're in groups and they just try to show off. I don't know if you've experienced that side of womanhood yet.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nitrozac:
Wow, you could've had your very own bathroom! I don't know what it is about men's bathrooms, they're just so disgusting. I mean, let's be honest, a woman uses the men's room only if she really, really, has to.

---

In all fairness, I have seen women trash bathrooms in ways that men could never do. After all, men may splatter their biological functions all over the place, but they are not in the habit of sticking used maxi pads on the back of stall doors. EUW.

Still, I agree that women seem to clean up after themselves a bit better.

Seattle, especially around Capital Hill, has an interesting tendency to make all bathrooms unisex. In many places there's just one bathroom; where there are two, they sometimes call them Bathroom A and Bathroom B. I think that tends to make everyone a bit more conscious about the mess they might make; most of those bathrooms are quite clean.

Now, enough of this topic...!

quote:

---

I guess you're exposed to a whole other type of discrimination, and that requires a very strong character to cope with.

---

Yes, but I don't see major differences between transiphobia, homophobia, and woman-hating. They often seem to stem from the same source.

quote:

---

Being female, I've had a difficult time in coping with certain attitudes. Nothing is worse than walking into a store with a guy and you're the one asking the questions and the male clerk only speaks to the guy (who's not buying). I mean, I've been in situations where what I say is simply ignored, just ignored. It's frustrating, and I've often wished I was a guy.

---

You mean at a computer store or any old store? I usually go shopping by myself and make absolutely clear I know what I want and will only pay for that, so I haven't had that particular problem. But I believe in thumping those who are so afflicted. In fact, if you would like to borrow my Tube Of Correction some time, you're more than welcome!

quote:

---

Being harrassed at work or on the street just because you're female, that so sucks. That's different than looking particularly good that day and turning a few heads, that can be fun. It's when the pigs are out there and they're in groups and they just try to show off. I don't know if you've experienced that side of womanhood yet.

---

Not much on the street, although there's a blues bar up the street from my apartment and I've had guys making a scene in front of the bar when I've walked by. Usually I keep walking by but make sure I have some means to defend myself, just in case.

Online is a different matter. Guys see a female username and start glomming on like suckerfish on a manta ray. Even if you express your own preferences they KEEP ON HITTING ON YOU. I've gotten to a point where I start looking for buttons of theirs to push, to ward them off; the truth isn't enough anymore.

"Excuse me, I'm a transsexual lesbian..."

"But I like she-males, and maybe I could wear a dress."

"...Who likes inflicting pain on others...."

"I'm curious about masochism."

"...With a rusty barb-wire flogger."

"Uh, sorry, not my thing, bye."

Yeesh.

quote:

---

Maybe I'm in a cynical mood, but what are the joys of being female?

---

These are very subjective, and as I said before, I'm biased because I didn't like being a man half as much as I'm enjoying being female.

That said, areas that used to be ticklish now produce a much more sensual feeling, and my sexual stimulation isn't limited to a few inches of flesh anymore. My skin is softer and my hair lighter and finer, I can handle stress better than I used to, and I imagine I've added five years to my life in the process.

Probably the thing I treasure most about being female, however, are my woman friends. Whether it's something trivial like shoe shopping or drinking margaritas, or something more profound like a bridal shower, my friends enrich me and make my new gender even more precious.

I'm going to get maudlin if I keep going.

I'm sorry that you're feeling cynical right now. Anything I could do to help?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nitrozac:
Maybe I'm in a cynical mood, but what are the joys of being female?

---

We-e-ll... (risks neck by volunteering opinions on this as a guy) I think you get more licence to do certain things - talk more openly about emotions and insecurities, enjoy more intimacy in your same-sex friendships, wear different clothes, not feel your success is defined by what job you do or how much money you make... Not that those things are forbidden to guys but I tend to feel they're not so easy. And harassment sucks and there's no place for it, but being the one who always has to take the initiative can suck too.

And then there's the whole baby thing, which you can get involved with in a way that really isn't available to us, dodgy Arnie pictures notwithstanding...

...Anyway, that's the kind of stuff that sometimes make me wish I was a girl.

OMG Lilith, what have you started??

quote:

---

I don't see major differences between transiphobia, homophobia, and woman-hating. They often seem to stem from the same source.

---

I think that's perceptive.

I'm curious to know if changing gender was a tough decision to make or (given how you felt about being male) an easy one?

quote:

---

... Bathroom A and Bathroom B

---

(pictures what would happen in the average bar towards closing time as the male denizens are seized by the need to return some of the large quantities of beer they have rented during the evening, stagger toiletwards to be confronted with... Bathroom A and Bathroom B... 'Umm... errr....' ...multiple pile-up ensues...)

oh Lil, if only you knew the feeling you get when you're "only the woman" in a situation. I mean, they cut you off mid-sentence and everything! Like you're nothing.

Ok, we can pop out babies, and technology is on the way to eliminate the need for men on this planet in that department. But, I don't know if I would think of that as being all that great. Childbirth looks excruciating. Plus there's stuff no one tells you about, apparently.

quote:

---

Originally posted by nekomatic:
OMG Lilith, what have you started??

---

What, another cult? AGAIN? Aw...!

quote:

---

I'm curious to know if changing gender was a tough decision to make or (given how you felt about being male) an easy one?

---

Well, at first I didn't know. I didn't dispute what I was told--I had a penis, so I was a boy. A boy who'd rather play with girls than other boys, but still a boy. I started crossdressing when I was 11 but my father found out and so I suppressed those feelings deeply and faked being masculine until I got to college.

At college I discovered UNIX, the Internet, IRC, and a channel full of crossdressers and transsexuals, one of whom lived close by. She took me to my first support group meeting. I also met a young TS there in whom I was smitten the moment we were IRL. It was passionate but fairly brief, but it taught me a lot about myself and let me more seriously scrutinize my feelings about being male.

And my conclusion was that, even if it meant the threats of unwanted pregnancy, disease, endometriosis, PMS, rape, second-class status, and the embarrassment of potential blood stains, I still would have preferred to have been born a girl.

Well, that didn't happen. But I realized this feeling was so strong that I was willing to try to rectify the situation. The extremes in which I was willing to go have increased from just taking hormone pills to having picked out a surgeon for SRS.

I recently showed my brother and his wife some recent pics of me, and they say I'm beautiful like my Mom. I'm melting.

quote:

---

(pictures what would happen in the average bar towards closing time as the male denizens are seized by the need to return some of the large quantities of beer they have rented during the evening, stagger toiletwards to be confronted with... Bathroom A and Bathroom B... 'Umm... errr....' ...multiple pile-up ensues...)

---

If the bathroom is small, it doesn't really matter which they use. But yeah, I can see that messing with men's heads. When I first moved to Seattle and was still living as male most of the time, I was timid about going into the bathroom at this local lesbian bar until I realized nobody gave a goddamn, bless their souls.

------------------
Her Ladyship The Prophet
Rev. Dkr. St. Popess
Lilith von Fraumench,
Esquire, H.o.t.S.F., Inc.
--"Lil" for short
http://lilith.foolspress.com/

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nitrozac:
Oh no, now you've got me started! What pisses me off to no end is the higher price tag of being female! Clothes, haircuts, drycleaning, and car repairs. There's been studies about it. On average we make less but have to shell out more.

---

Believe me, I do understand. The situation is complicated by the expenses of transition, many of which are not covered by health plans in most places.

So I cut back a lot. Many of my outfits were bought on clearance or at this great charity store with incredible prices and some cool finds two blocks from my apartment. I don't cut my hair except every few months, to even the length and remove split ends. I prefer washable natural fabrics anyhow, and I rely on Seattle's fairly decent if somewhat ludicrous transit system. (Good news--we might get a monorail after all!)

But I have a weakness for boots. That is my tragic flaw here. Pity me, or at least tell me where I can find discount women's boots in a 12W.

quote:

---

oh Lil, if only you knew the feeling you get when you're "only the woman" in a situation. I mean, they cut you off mid-sentence and everything! Like you're nothing.

---

I can imagine being in that situation easily. It has happened once or twice, but they rarely want to repeat it. }-)

That may well change as my transition progresses. But I have twice been a support god, and have been practising goddesshood on the side, and am ready to join the children of the graveyard shift on some low-end server farm and climb from there. I'm ready for a new challenge.

quote:

---

Ok, we can pop out babies, and technology is on the way to eliminate the need for men on this planet in that department. But, I don't know if I would think of that as being all that great. Childbirth looks excruciating. Plus there's stuff no one tells you about, apparently.

---

Well, this isn't a matter of convenience but of being congruent in body and mind.

While I don't have to worry about endometriosis, cramps, periods in general, I still pay a price. I will need to dilate on a regular basis to keep the neovagina from closing up. I may never orgasm again. Certainly there will be scarring for a few months at least, and extreme pain, and the risk of death from complications.

All the same, I'll take the risk. I've decided in the end that it was worth it.

quote:

---

Sounds like you have nice friends tho! The company of women is empowering. Until they get Catty on you! Then, run!

---

Somehow I've avoided that so far. But I have claws. Heh heh...

------------------
Her Ladyship The Prophet
Rev. Dkr. St. Popess
Lilith von Fraumench,
Esquire, H.o.t.S.F., Inc.
--"Lil" for short
http://lilith.foolspress.com/

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lilith von Fraumench:
Somehow I've avoided that so far. But I have claws. Heh heh...

---

Buy Docs (on clearance) they are pretty much unisex

I have my eye on the 20 eyelet style, but i'll probably go for the 14 when i get another pair - i dont know if i could lace that much in the morning.

-On the being a woman topic:

Lets see, men talk down to me... or around me. If they actually talk to me, its generally obnoxious. Prime example: today i was tying down a cable under a workstation. The guy sitting there started making smart remarks. And i'm tired of being called "cute"... i really *hate* that.

I have to work twice as hard and be twice as good to be treated as an equal. I still take calls from other departments that figure i am the secretary that works at 11PM, they ask for "one of the IT guys".

I can fix my own car (and you should see the look on a guy's face when you start talking about replacing your fuel pump last weekend) so i dont have to deal with mechanics, luckily. The few times i have, it wasn't pleasant. I did finally find a good one.

Mostly i'm used to it. But i shouldn't have to be.

Regarding the particular of salespeople talking only to the man, Caryl and I have walked out of stores when this happened. When Caryl needed a new computer now and I didn't have the time to build one for her, there was only one shop (both chain stores and mom'n'pops) we went to where the salesperson talked to her when she asked a question -- that store got the sale.

Admittedly, I'm not perfect. I've found I'm still prone to that sort of thing where age is involved (but I try not to!) The worst example was about a year ago when I was talking to two engineers from Mitre -- both women, one in her early thirties, and the other 22, a few months out of college. I realized (after the fact) that I pretty much ignored the younger engineer until she said something to the effect of "I'm here, too".

Nitrozac
Childbirth looks excruciating. Plus there's stuff no one tells you about, apparently.

Caryl managed to get around most of the "stuff no one tells you about" by finding a website with forums where they shared their experiences -- they even went so far as to set up an "Aug 99" forum. Granted someone had to rediscover the detail first, but she would soon share it so everyone else could anticipate it. Plus, by reading the forums for "Jul 99" and "Jun 99", she could get a heads-up even earlier. And, of course, there were the women in the forums who were going through their second (or third or...) pregancy.

Regarding pain, there's not much to help with the backpains before delivery (other than stretching out in a hot bath, or bending over and leaning on the father), but for the pains of childbirth itself, she says "an epidural is your friend". She had to fake feeling the contractions -- she couldn't feel them at all, but she quickly learned to watch the face of the nurse who was watching the "machine that goes bleep" -- when the monitor showed a contraction, the nurse's face changed, and Caryl would then pretend to feel the contraction so the medical team would allow her to push.

quote:

---

Originally posted by SupportGoddess:
Lets see, men talk down to me... or around me. If they actually talk to me, its generally obnoxious. Prime example: today i was tying down a cable under a workstation. The guy sitting there started making smart remarks. And i'm tired of being called "cute"... i really *hate* that.

---

Well you *are* cute, but that is out of context-- you were at work.

quote:

---

Originally posted by SupportGoddess:

I have to work twice as hard and be twice as good to be treated as an equal..

---

Yep, you work twice as hard and that's why we love you. *mumbles about credit for work being stolen by dilbert-like boss*

quote:

---

Originally posted by SupportGoddess:
I still take calls from other departments that figure i am the secretary that works at 11PM, they ask for "one of the IT guys".

---

This post suggests the "other departments" that figure you're a secretary, are all men. Women do this stereotyping too, am I not correct?

There's a lot of male-bashing, and false assumptions in between the lines here. I doubt anyone is intentionally doing so and *know* that, "all men aren't like this" but the thread is going toward anti-male sentiment / male-bashing (men are the evil nation) yadda yadda yadda.

I don't like it, I object to it, and I'm stating so right now.

We're used to the flak we get from stupidity, stereotypes, and obnoxiousness. We also already know how to deal with it.

What is the point of whining other than to be (basically) a bully and bash another in order to feel good about yourself (by making yourself the "victim" vs a "evil" foe -- the victim mentality I could rant days about which the US judicial system supports)?

What good does it do? All it does is stir up anger, releasing anger/frustration but also generating more (fact: anger begets more anger). Are solutions posed? No, We already know them and know that we don't *have* to deal with these people all the time. We have our sanctuaries.

Give me one solid reason this reputation-bashing should continue and I'll shut-up about it.

quote:

---

Nothing is worse than walking into a store with a guy and you're the one asking the questions and the male clerk only speaks to the guy (who's not buying). I mean, I've been in situations where what I say is simply ignored, just ignored. It's frustrating, and I've often wished I was a guy.

---

I had a reverse happen to me the other day, ...the local post offices are manned (heh) entirely by women. I was with Nitrozac shipping some orders, the staff was talking to Nitro but I was completely ignored, like I wasn't there. It's a very suffocating feeling, especially when you have something to say.

quote:

---

Originally posted by SupportGoddess:
Buy Docs (on clearance) they are pretty much unisex

I have my eye on the 20 eyelet style, but i'll probably go for the 14 when i get another pair - i dont know if i could lace that much in the morning.

---

I have a pair of military-issue paratrooper boots with a side zip. Admittedly, I haven't worn them in a while, but they're fun.

One day I'll take pics of my boot collection so you can see what I tend to favor.

quote:

---

Mostly i'm used to it. But i shouldn't have to be.

---

Of course not. Next time someone pulls something like that, tell 'em you know this six foot tall lesbian terrorist with a most impressive collection of big sticks and a yen for brutality, and that you'd really rather NOT see them wrapped around the end of a telephone pole, but....

(Normally I'm peaceful, but this has been a week wherein I've been verbally attacked by men and it's got me seeing red. Peace to all who mean peace, however!)

------------------
Her Ladyship The Prophet
Rev. Dkr. St. Popess
Lilith von Fraumench,
Esquire, H.o.t.S.F., Inc.
--"Lil" for short
http://lilith.foolspress.com/

quote:

---

Originally posted by EngrBohn:
Regarding the particular of salespeople talking only to the man, Caryl and I have walked out of stores when this happened. When Caryl needed a new computer now and I didn't have the time to build one for her, there was only one shop (both chain stores and mom'n'pops) we went to where the salesperson talked to her when she asked a question -- that store got the sale.

---

WHOOT! That's great, guys. Show those stoopid sales jerks what's what!

quote:

---

Admittedly, I'm not perfect.

---

Nobody is. I certainly have my biases. I jump quickly on behalf of women without thinking, sometimes. Oops.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snaggy:
I had a reverse happen to me the other day, ...the local post offices are manned (heh) entirely by women. I was with Nitrozac shipping some orders, the staff was talking to Nitro but I was completely ignored, like I wasn't there. It's a very suffocating feeling, especially when you have something to say.

---

Allophobia, the fear of the different. It SUXORS.

On the plus side, I'm taking my hormone shot in a moment, and things shall suxor less. Right now I definitely feel PMS-like symptoms and it will be nice to correct that. Oddly, my girlfriend and I found that we in sync this way--her menstrual cycle overlaps with my hormone regimen so we're both weepy aevil messes at the same time.

------------------
Her Ladyship The Prophet
Rev. Dkr. St. Popess
Lilith von Fraumench,
Esquire, H.o.t.S.F., Inc.
--"Lil" for short
http://lilith.foolspress.com/

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Originally posted by Drasca:
Give me one solid reason this reputation-bashing should continue and I'll shut-up about it.

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How about because this thread is focused more on how bad discrimination is, and not how bad males are, I've noticed quite a few men post in this thread about their experiences with discrimination(first and second hand), the women aren't the only ones who have a problem with it.

Solid enough? If not you could always just avoid this thread.

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Originally posted by Drasca:
This post suggests the "other departments" that figure you're a secretary, are all men. Women do this stereotyping too, am I not correct?

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Primarily, given the field i work in, other departments that i deal with consist mostly of men. To their credit, they rarely make the same mistake again.

It can happen with women, but i find that women are less likely to immediately jump to the conclusion that i am extraneous based on my gender.

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Originally posted by Drasca:
There's a lot of male-bashing, and false assumptions in between the lines here. I doubt anyone is intentionally doing so and *know* that, "all men aren't like this" but the thread is going toward anti-male sentiment / male-bashing (men are the evil nation) yadda yadda yadda.

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No Drasca, all men are not like that. But too many of them are. It's not an anti-*male* sentiment, at least on my part. It's an anti-inequality sentiment.

And sometimes people need a chance to vent. Having a chance to say "hey, i'm angry about this" is much healthier than bottling it up.

Women live daily in a very different social environment than men (though Snaggy got a taste of it ). And most men can't truly *understand* some of the experiences we have on a regular basis.

Some things are just irritating, like being talked down to or around. Other things are far more damaging, and still far too common. Things like rape, abuse, and harrasment. If you can find a women that has never experienced *any* of those, she is in the minority.

I'm sure there are solutions, but any real solution would require a radical change in the thinking of a large number of people. Like *that* is going to happen in my lifetime. :P

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"Be uncomfortable; be sand, not oil, in the machinery of the world" -German poet Gunter Eich (1907-72)

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Originally posted by SupportGoddess:
No Drasca, all men are not like that. But too many of them are. It's not an anti-*male* sentiment, at least on my part. It's an anti-inequality sentiment.

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Intentional or not, your post reeks of the gender-inequality sentiment of the male-bashing side. Take a reread of your posts with your blinders off. Impossible for a woman (the biased against) to be biased herself? I think not.

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Originally posted by SupportGoddess:
And sometimes people need a chance to vent. Having a chance to say "hey, i'm angry about this" is much healthier than bottling it up.

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Do I suggest bottling up? No. However, "venting" with anger only begets more anger. There are other ways to vent for catharsis and release emotion, but everyone here already knows them.

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Originally posted by SupportGoddess:
Women live daily in a very different social environment than men (though Snaggy got a taste of it ). And most men can't truly *understand* some of the experiences we have on a regular basis.

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That's basically saying, we (as men) can't understand on your say so. I'll admit many people live under a rock (just generally waste of time to spend with) but I've heard this arguement before: "You can't possibly understand (because you're not one of us)." Not good enough. That isn't the end of arguement.

For being specifically *ignored*, EngrBohn brought up being ignored for Age (being young). There's also race, height, attractiveness, and any number of physical, and social status qualities everyone is put through. ''I know everyone has been through this because everyone has been through Highschool'' -Bill Maher.

For the record, "Women live daily in a very different social environment than men" does not necessarily mean a social environment any worse than the following sentence of "Snaggy getting a taste of it (being ignored)" suggests.

I could whine and vent about boys being second class citizens in the US courts and school system (being male is politically incorrect now...), but I won't do it here. Everyone here has their choice of venting, I'll choose to take it out in Push-Ups.

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Originally posted by SupportGoddess:
Some things are just irritating, like being talked down to or around. Other things are far more damaging, and still far too common. Things like rape, abuse, and harrassment. If you can find a women that has never experienced *any* of those, she is in the minority.

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On the flip side, false-rape accusation and reputation destruction (zero-tolerance laws here mark people as rapists regardless of proof), mind-games (such as threatening suicide if leaving--works both ways btw), and women inciting several other men to jump a falsely accused rapist . . . wait this last one isn't as common but still happens to much for me to accept as normal. Ah, any man publicly voicing an opinion contrary to the leading feminist propoganda on college campuses these days is instantly silenced.

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Originally posted by SupportGoddess:
I'm sure there are solutions, but any real solution would require a radical change in the thinking of a large number of people. Like *that* is going to happen in my lifetime. :P

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Oh with the right evil genius innovation... uh I really shouldn't reveal such secrets here

But really, your venting is extremely one-sided and doesn't seem to make you or anyone else feel any better (please prove me wrong on this).

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-Drasca
"To dream is the most wonderful and foolish thing there is"

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Originally posted by Drasca:
But really, your venting is extremely one-sided and doesn't seem to make you or anyone else feel any better (please prove me wrong on this).

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And your venting seems to be so impartial...

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Originally posted by Drasca:
There's a lot of male-bashing, and false assumptions in between the lines here. I doubt anyone is intentionally doing so and *know* that, "all men aren't like this" but the thread is going toward anti-male sentiment / male-bashing (men are the evil nation) yadda yadda yadda.

I don't like it, I object to it, and I'm stating so right now.

We're used to the flak we get from stupidity, stereotypes, and obnoxiousness. We also already know how to deal with it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Drasca:
On the flip side, false-rape accusation and reputation destruction (zero-tolerance laws here mark people as rapists regardless of proof), mind-games (such as threatening suicide if leaving--works both ways btw), and women inciting several other men to jump a falsely accused rapist . . . wait this last one isn't as common but still happens to much for me to accept as normal. Ah, any man publicly voicing an opinion contrary to the leading feminist propoganda on college campuses these days is instantly silenced.

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Doesn't filling two posts about how you're tired of women stereotyping men, rather stereotype women? Your posts alone make this an equal opportunity discrimination rant thread.

quote:

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Originally posted by Drasca:
I could whine and vent about boys being second class citizens in the US courts and school system (being male is politically incorrect now...), but I won't do it here. Everyone here has their choice of venting, I'll choose to take it out in Push-Ups.

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And if other people want to take it out here, amongst other people who have had similar experiences, in rational discussion about events that have ACTUALLY happened to them, shouldn't they be allowed to?

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--Angry Rooster
"Eagles may soar, but roosters don't get sucked into jet engines."

quote:

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Originally posted by Drasca:
On the flip side, false-rape accusation and reputation destruction (zero-tolerance laws here mark people as rapists regardless of proof), mind-games (such as threatening suicide if leaving--works both ways btw), and women inciting several other men to jump a falsely accused rapist . . . wait this last one isn't as common but still happens to much for me to accept as normal.

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I agree there is abuse of laws and social conventions which are meant to protect women; what I don't understand is the emphasis on rape above. False allegations of rape are vile, I think most will agree. All the same, these incidents are... incidents. Discrimination against women, however, is a very common experience.

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Ah, any man publicly voicing an opinion contrary to the leading feminist propoganda on college campuses these days is instantly silenced.

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Funny, I don't read any feminist propaganda on college campuses. Never have. And when I went to school, the women seemed to favor Camille Pagilia, who is resoundingly and intentionally pro-male as a feminist.

I'm more into doing my part to encourage women to reach their potential rather than discouraging men from reaching theirs. Any anger comes from men who--knowingly or not--discourage women for their advantage. And this occurs even now.

"I'll be Post-Feminist in the Post-Patriarchy" -- some t-shirt

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Her Ladyship The Prophet
Rev. Dkr. St. Popess
Lilith von Fraumench,
Esquire, H.o.t.S.F., Inc.
--"Lil" for short
http://lilith.foolspress.com/

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Originally posted by Lilith von Fraumench:
*sigh* A thread that was originally about queer geeks is now about sexism. Gotta love it.

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Welcome to Geekculture

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Originally posted by Lilith von Fraumench:
Funny, I don't read any feminist propaganda on college campuses. Never have. And when I went to school, the women seemed to favor Camille Pagilia, who is resoundingly and intentionally pro-male as a feminist. .

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There's a sign in the dorm lobby right now that says, "Think of 6 women closest to you. Now guess which one will be raped. One out of 6 college women will be raped this year"

Now I've looked at the study, and the fact is that the statistic of 1 out of 7 is for chance of being raped in the Lifetime. This is direct manipulation of statistics to attempt to wreak hyperbolic panic. (Luckily most people here are smart enough to know its a fake figure) The propaganda exists.

quote:

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Originally posted by Lilith von Fraumench:
I'm more into doing my part to encourage women to reach their potential rather than discouraging men from reaching theirs. Any anger comes from men who--knowingly or not--discourage women for their advantage. And this occurs even now..

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The problem isn't in the actions of the individual. It is in the policy. Current (grade / elementary) school policy encourages feminine behavior patterns (in general) and discourages male ones.

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Originally posted by Lilith von Fraumench:
"I'll be Post-Feminist in the Post-Patriarchy" -- some t-shirt

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Hehe, the third-wave Feminism isn't what I have a problem with. Its N.O.W. feminism I do have serious problems with. Gloria Steinem and her crowd are whacked....

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On the flip side, false-rape accusation and reputation destruction (zero-tolerance laws here mark people as rapists regardless of proof), mind-games (such as threatening suicide if leaving--works both ways btw), and women inciting several other men to jump a falsely accused rapist . . . wait this last one isn't as common but still happens to much for me to accept as normal. Ah, any man publicly voicing an opinion contrary to the leading feminist propoganda on college campuses these days is instantly silenced.

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Oh my god, SHUT UP Drasca! What is it with you?? I bet you think it's not fair to white people how black people talk a lot about the difficulties of being black. Guess what! That's because it's TRUE! Racism still exists - granted, not nearly to the extent of a century or even 50 years ago. But it's STILL AROUND! The emotional effects aren't something you just brush off! I'm not black, so I feel I have no right to make a statement about what it's like to be black, how black people should act or think, etc. Because as much as I may be able to sympathize, I will NEVER be able to empathize - because it's impossible! Same goes for men and women - you will NEVER know what it feels like to be a woman (unless you undergo a radical lifestyle change, a la Lilith, which I seriously doubt) and therefore you have NO right to yell and dictate about what women's lives are like and why men are soooo persecuted, wah wah wah. You know, I could say things like, "Oh, nowadays the white people are the ones discriminated against." But I WON'T. Because I know, I'm white, and that fact has meant that I have not had to endure some experiences and situations that I would have had to endure had I been born black. So I keep my mouth shut! (And for the record, I DON'T think white people are discriminated against, but...) Same goes for men and women!!!

You're going to hate this and have a field day picking it apart, but one falsely accused rapist is A LOT better than dozens of unreported sexual assaults.

(Edit: as for being talked down to or ignored in stores, etc.... I experience this a lot and have come to just laugh at it. Chris and I will go into a computer store seeking a particular part. The salesguy immediately starts talking to Chris. He asks Chris what he's looking for. Chris says, "I don't know, talk to her." The salesguy looks quite surprised. Even moreso when I start talking about something like RISC architecture or IP masquerading. )

This sometimes happens with potential customers, too... sucks...

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Originally posted by macwoman:
Oh my god, SHUT UP Drasca!

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Hurrah.

Still sees hypocrisy at work,
                               Angry Rooster

quote:

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Originally posted by Drasca:
Current (grade / elementary) school policy encourages feminine behavior patterns (in general) and discourages male ones.

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In a probably vain attempt to drag this thread slightly closer to the original topic... what do you have in mind by 'feminine/male' behaviour patterns?

If you think violence is a 'masculine' behaviour pattern and understanding others' feelings is a 'feminine' one, for example, I have no problem with discouraging the one and encouraging the other. However, I'd rather not associate violence with being male in the first place.

For what it's worth, you can go around spotting casual anti-male sentiments in certain, what you might call 'liberal', circles if you want - what Doris Lessing got into the papers for saying recently - but the big picture is that discrimination against women is still for the most part far too acceptable in much of society, far too entrenched in institutions, and far too tangible - wages, rights, employment decisions. Doris Lessing obviously doesn't read the tabloid press for a start. The reason women are quite right to mention this just occasionally is that if we don't work on it, it won't change. Unless I hadn't noticed and the US is some kind of misandrist paradise compared to the UK (nb sarcasm), the statement 'it's politically incorrect to be male' just makes me laugh.

Then again, whenever I hear someone ranting against 'political correctness' I know I'm usually in for a good chuckle.