This of course made me reaize that I am a insomniac (look at time on post), dyslexic (though I am typically able to over come it, thanks to spell check-- but it probably shows through here), agnostic. Which means I stay up all night contemplating the exsistance of Dog.

All joking aside, I feel that there is a higher power, and that it can be seen in the majesty of the universe. I think that the convient symetry that exsists between the movement of sub-atomic particals and the movement of the celestrial bodies seems to infer that there was some order to the maadness that created the universe. Take into account also the thery of multipule causeality: All effects have a cause wich are effects of other causes, thus even the initaial cause must have a cause external to this universe.

Your thoughts?

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quote:

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Originally posted by macadddikt18:
the simple answer is yes there is a God out there. You can find him in orginized religion, but only in christianity. The best part is that God, who created the whole Universe, adn everything we know, wants to have a relationship with you. That just blows my midn some days. Don't sit there and try to understand God though, that is impossible. But if you seek him, he will reveal himself to you.
Nayt

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quote:

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Originally posted by quantumfluff:
No

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Good answer, Fluff Daddy! I like your reasoning!

(Ok - shoot me now.)

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"Gentlemen - you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!"

Nayt, I am not suprised (disappointed but not supprised) to hear you say that. Do you believe then believe that only those who believe in your god have salvation? Does this then damn all Aleins (pointing out that it is quite likly that they exsist) to a "hell," simply because they have not hear of your Christ? I don't mean to be mean, I am just looking for reasons beyond "the bible says so."

I am a pagan for a number of philisopical reasons including the belief in a catagorical moral imparitive that is consistent with the laws of physics "for each and every action there is an equal and oppiste reaction." Reincarnation also makes scence (and yes christians actually have a history of belief in reincarnation) based on the laws of conservation. After all isn't a soul just a form of energy?

Again, I digress.

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Originally posted by spungo:
I went to a disco once and saw Him doing the macarena - I asked someone who he was - they told me it was God moving in mysterious ways.

(Ok - shoot me now.)

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Originally posted by spungo:
Good answer, Fluff Daddy! I like your reasoning!

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Works for me.

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I think that the convient symetry that exsists between the movement of sub-atomic particals and the movement of the celestrial bodies seems to infer that there was some order to the maadness that created the universe.

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If you still think that there's any symmetry between the elliptical orbits of planets and the motions of electrons around the nucleus of an atom, you haven't studied enough physics yet.

At the subatomic level, it's not even really accurate to say that electrons have a position at all. They have a probability distribution which covers the entire universe; and that distribution "breaks down" into a single point if you observe the electon (particle). But if you do that, then you cannot know its velocity. Contrariwise, you could measure its velocity, but then you cannot be certain of its position. This is the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

Here's another one: the famous two-slit diffraction experiment. Take an opaque barrier with two slits in it and fire a beam of photons (light) at it. The light will pass through the slits and form a diffraction pattern on the wall behind your barrier. Now fire a single photon at the barrier -- it should pass through one slit or the other, right? Wrong. It passes through both slits. The single photon travels both paths and forms a diffraction pattern. Now put a sensor on one of the slits so that you can tell whether the photon passes through that slit, or not. The photon will no longer form a diffraction pattern; it will pass through one slit or the other.

The problem with the way the question is phrased is incendiary; rather I'd ask "What does the term God mean to you?" My definition is vastly different than Nayt's, or Fluff's, or anyone else because it is my definition--tainted, coloured, flavored and filtered thru my perceptions and experiences.

The inherent danger in this line of thought is that most of humanity is not mature enough to look at belief systems objectively. This leads to the projection of one's beliefs onto someone else, with unreasoning frustration that another can't see the obvious "Truth" which is generally ill-defined and badly communicated. Which leads to the same problems we're treated to from the Middle East.

By the way, on the "Organized Religion" subject, think of that as a scaffolding surrounding God...Intricately designed to keep you in the process instead of actually getting to Him/Her. After all, if you could actually get to Him/Her through relgion, why would religion exist in the first place?

Lest anyone think I'm talking out of my ass, I've been a born-again Christian and a Pagan. I abhor the hubris (look it up) of "we're better than you are because we're Christians!" attitude to the point that anyone wanting to give me the Lord's Word of the Day makes me say No. I've found too many times that the more Christian a person proclaims him/herself, the less Christ-like they are; judgemental and close-minded. When it comes to the Pagans, and a more friendly, open-minded and accepting group of peoples I've never met.

I have heard of the diffraction expeirement, but I don't believe that transendental exsistentialism and the exsistancce of a higher power are not nessaecarily mutal exclusive. I realize that it may seem contradictory to say that there is an omnipotentant being and we shap our own realities, but I don't see anyreason why this couldn't be the case.

LifeTracker, I understand that I was vauge about the definition of the word god, and that I have continuously used the male form of the word even though my beliefs point to a sexless deity. I wanted t obe general so that I'd get some people from other (more)orginized religons. I was also intrested to see the philosophies that lead people to beliefs in deities. I also realize that as tolerant and open-minded as I try to be I find that I get upset when I run into people whose only argument for their beliefs comes from some "athority" and not from logical argument or observation.

I realize that this probaly isn't the best time to post this question, in light of what has been going on in the middle east, but the fact that we are able to discuss peacfully such a "delicate" topic even in heated times says somthing about the maturity of the geeks on this board.

What I DO have a problem with, is people believing that you can only find him/her through organised religion. What a hunk of crap that is. I see organised religions as one of two things:

1. Cults that prey on weak minded people unable (or unwilling) to think for themselves.

That is truly what religions are. CULTS. The only difference is that organised religion has been approved by the ones in power (ie. the governments, the kings, ect.).

2. Gathering places for anal retentive jerk-offs to try and palm their views/morals on the rest of the world.

For example, there is a radio station in my hometown, 97.3 K-ROCK. It is a station that has done a lot of good in and around our community. Anyway they had billboards put up around town for their morning show that MOST people thought were funny.

Unfortunatly, some church groups got together and convinced whoever is in charge of censoring things that this was unappropriate, and they were taken down.

I think that if people wern't so conserned with saving their own asses(read: souls), they would realise just what these organisations are, and what they do. As a result many people would leave, and most of them would probably find it easier to connect with god.

Anyway, back to the original question. As I stated earlier, yes I believe there may be a god. Though I can't say if she/he created the universe(I wasn't there).

I see god as an artist. He/she uses the universe as a medium in which to portray her/his vision. If god did create us it was just because we fit in with that vision at the time.

If people really want to connect with god all they have to do is go out and experience nature. Watch a sunset or sunrise, sit down and listen to the wind in the trees, climb a mountain and feel the rock beneath your hands, take a deep breath of fresh mountain air, or take a long drink from a cold stream. Thats where god is. That's where you will find your connection, and that's where you communicate with her/him. At least IMNSHO.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

if you don't believe in Him, then you ain't going to the father. Sure, you will get condemned to hell. i find that most people have something against God, jesus or christianity, but never say what it is.
nayt

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Art: making weird people seem interesting since 1503

I don't believe in the omnipotent, omnisicent god found in Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. I do however, believe that there is a power within and around us - the Japanese call it ki. I believe it is in all living things and within the earth itself. You can feel it if you sit still, you can feel it in nature. You can call upon it. I know this sounds like the Force from Star Wars, but it's not. For one thing, I do not believe that ki can make objects fly through the air nor can it control minds. It can, however, strengthen your own will to the point where giving up isn't even an option.

I discussed this with my boss once. She said I'd make a very good shinto.

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Originally posted by pawn:
or take a long drink from a cold stream. Thats where god is.

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Originally posted by macadddikt18:
if the aliens do exist, all they have to do is believe. I think i will clarify my organized religion up a bit. You don't have to have it. You can find God anywhere. The only way you will get to God is through his son Jesus Christ. Organized religion provides you with more of a family of support. there is no other way to God.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

if you don't believe in Him, then you ain't going to the father. Sure, you will get condemned to hell. i find that most people have something against God, jesus or christianity, but never say what it is.
nayt

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I'd like to thank you for confirming points 1 and 2 in my post above.

Religions were created by man for man, and god most likely has little to do with them. The first religion was probably thought up by some lazy cave man that was tired of hunting and gathering. So he came up with a way to get people to give him all he wanted to eat for free.

Probably went something like this:

Dork the lazy caveman: "Damn i'm tired of hunting and gathering. What can I do to make it easier for me? Wait I know just the thing!!"

Dork runs up to the other cavepeople with a frightened look on his face and says:

Dork: "The gods of thunder and lightning have said to me that we should leave food out for them on this big flat rock. They will come and take it in the night and will bless us with good hunting and much gathering."

Gronk the other caveman: "How come we didn't hear them say this?"

Dork: "The gods have told me they will only speak through me. Anyone who doesn't listen will be struck down by the god of lightning."

Gronk: "Oh, well we better listen to them then. Gather the best fruit and grains, and place it on the rock."

Dork: "Don't forget to give them some mastadon meat. They told me they love it, and would give extra good hunting and gathering if we add it in."

Gronk: "ok, add in some mastadon meat. You know Dork, you should be in a special position in our tribe since you talk with the gods."

Dork: "Thats just what the gods told me to get you to do next. You are so smart Gronk. The gods say that I, Dork, shall from now on be known as a....uh.....errr.....uhhh....ahhh...a priest. Yeah thats it, a priest"

All other cavemen: "yea, hail Dork!! Priest of the gods of thunder and lightning."

Dork: "And the gods have told me that Gronk shall be made Chief of the tribe, and shall remain chief as long as the offerings are left for them once a week."

Gronk: "Did the gods say I would get my pick of the ladies?"

Dork: "Uhh, yeah sure. As do I. But if you ever fail to leave an offering then the gods will strike you down."

Gronk: "Why do they not threaten to strike you down?"

Dork: "Who will talk with the gods then."

Gronk: "Good point. Well I don't want to be struck down so i'll make sure they have all the food they can ever want.

Dork: "Good job gronk. You know, I think this is the begining of a beautiful friendship"

The End.

Oh and Xanthine, no one said that god was nice all the time.

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Originally posted by pawn:

Oh and Xanthine, no one said that god was nice all the time.

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He's going to lose believers if He keeps playing tricks like that. I for one have turned my allegiance to Potable Aqua and Cipro.

Assuming god exists: Does he have a Mac or a PC?

~Thom

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Originally posted by MightyJoeSakic:
I think more important than which religious track is right or wrong is the question.........

Assuming god exists: Does he have a Mac or a PC?

~Thom

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Maybe He uses a cross-compiler ... sorry, that was unforgivable...

But we know He likes all of us here - "blessed are the geeks for they shall inherit the Earth."

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On a more serious note, my views on religion.... The more I see, the more I dislike organized religion. The only thing it's ever done for me, personally, is give me hell on earth (I suffer/ed from scrupulosity for half my life). I would like to believe in a god/dess (and a part of me does, I think, either that or it's the OCD--would a chemical imbalance count as faith?), and I think it's possible there is one. But for the most part, I don't see any evidence that it's so. Still, I entertain the possibility.

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macaddikt18 said:
But if you seek him, he will reveal himself to you.

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Originally posted by Janeway:
I haven't seen any missionary envoys to the stars yet.

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Hm. One wonders what their position is on that.

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I haven't seen any missionary envoys to the stars yet.

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Hm. One wonders what their position is on that.

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Originally posted by greycat:
http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,39977,00.html

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Ah, man. Imagine the mess - there'd be stuff everywhere!

While I agree that science has proven that nature's law's of physics is responsible for a lot things we once believed a god was responsible for, it hasn't managed to touch the philisophical questions that allow science to be proven. Remeber that without Philosophy proving that we can learn about the external world, we wouldn't have been able to go anywhere from there. The points at which philosophy, science and religon all come together is where the real wars will happen as they all advance...

I might also point out that science will be limited by the fact that so much of it is based on two assumtions, and until proven (one way or the other) scientific advancement won't be able to tackle the major philisophical questions:
1.) Ocum's Razor
2.) Princible of Normality

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www.game-master.org
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Originally posted by greycat:
If you still think that there's any symmetry between the elliptical orbits of planets and the motions of electrons around the nucleus of an atom, you haven't studied enough physics yet. Now fire a single photon at the barrier

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I don't think Christianity is the One way. I don't think there is any "one" way to get to Heaven. Maybe Christianity's just the easiest.

There. Tell your friends. You met a Christian who doesn't claim to have all the answers, or the only way to salvation. I'm open minded.

So like I said, I belive in God. I say He exists. He certainly saved my ass today. You may not think of God in the same way that I do. I don't expect everybody to share my particular view of God.

One more thing, and I promise that I'm done writing this post. Many people say that the whole "believe or you're going to hell" thing turns 'em off. So here's my solution. I'm a Christian. God'll listen to me, I think. (Hold on, you may or may not get offended or say "wow, this is cheezy") So what I'll do is I'll ask him one thing. I'll ask him to save all of those who don't believe. Because I don't like the thought of eternal torment. And I don't want anybody else to go through it.

I'm in yo' corner.

So, please share with me what lead you to the christian faith, what about it called to you?

Bregalad, the expeirement he is citing is actually quite a hot topic in the scientific comunity. I personally think that to solve this one we must go smaller... I think that behavior of particles smaller than sub-atomic particals are some how responsibl for this odd occurance. But, I'm damit Jim I a programer not a quantum physisit.

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Originally posted by GameMaster:
Mr. Roach, what I was asking is WHY do you believe in a god. I am looking for philisophical/scientific/logical arguments that lead people to what they believe, one way or the other.

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Ah, now THERE'S a good way to approach this--it wasn't made clear in the original post. Introspection of "why do I believe or not believe in God?" is something I wish everyone would explore.

People believe in God because they need to. Some people comfort themselves with drugs, alcohol, food..whatever, but others need to comfort themselves with religion. I wish I could find the comfort in it that some of my friends/family do, but it's just not there for me. 12 years of Catholic school will do that to you.

Now, before every rolls their eyes at this "youngin' who foolishly believes in magic" I'd like to say what exsactly magick is ad isn't. It isn't the hocus pocus that you see portrayed in the movies. It cannot force you to act against your will. It isn't the work of false idols or a/the devil. It is witchcraft, derived from putting the words "witch" and "craft" together. That is exsactly what it is, it is a craft (or collection of them) that are preformed by "witches." The simplest mmost consise and true meaning I've seen was "The creative programing of energies for a purpose," which is a broad definition that makes any creative act into Magick. Doesn't this fit well with the musician who entrances his audience, the movie that holds you spellbound or the painting that inspires your next project. Anyone who believes in karma is only a baby step away from understanding Magick.

Now, to twist the topic to make this a bit more intresting: who here believes in ghosts, an after life, a soul, reincarnation and/or karma/chi/ki/aura/force; and, what lead you to believe in it?

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Originally posted by macadddikt18:
the simple answer is yes there is a God out there. You can find him in orginized religion, [u]but only in christianity[/u]. [...]
Nayt

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Hmm... we as humans shape our worldviews through our perceptions. If one was to look at the world without a belief system (I'm counting science in this statement), then the world would seem like a meaningless sequence of random acts. Our lives would have no real purpose; staying alive would be a worthless effort. So we create these belief systems. We make reasons for things to happen, earnestly trying to conform this chaotic world to rigid rules that we can rely upon to give us guidance, stability.

Why do I believe in God? For one thing, I was born into it. I won't pretend that my upbringing didn't affect my choice. I do it for the comfort of knowing that somebody "up there" has a personal interest in me. I do it because I truly feel at peace when I'm praying, meditating, or just contemplating. It gave me answers, stability, and guidance. Just as some find their answers in Science, or in Buddhism, or Shinto, or Zen.