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Author Topic: Hot Topic!!
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted June 18, 2010 08:53      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ So the State of Utah carried out their killing of a dispicable person.

____ So how long after his heart stopped beating was he in pain?? Was he able to cry out??

____ We know when the heart stopped how long before real death, flat line brain scans?

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stereo

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Icon 1 posted June 18, 2010 09:42      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Indeed. They should at least have shot him in the head... [devil wand]

(Just to make sure: I am fervently against death penalty. Even if only to have the culprit realize how much out of life he is missing as a consequence of his past actions.)

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Eppur, si muove!

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted June 18, 2010 11:30      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Alive or dead, I don't think people feel pain when they're unconscious. Otherwise we need to start thinking about CPR and defibrillation a bit differently 'cuz that's really rough stuff. Broken bones, electric shocks, tubes shoved down throats...it looks like murder except they're already (clinically) dead.

I think the rule for brain death is 6+ minutes without oxygen. Though people have been without heartbeats for much longer and recovered completely. Thing is though, you put a bullet through a heart and the muscle will stop working and that's it. The heart stops, consciousness is lost, and there's no coming back. You can't shock a heart with holes all the way through it.

The real question is does dying, by any means, hurt? It can be very peaceful-looking, but what really happens when soul and body part ways? There's no way to know, of course - in fact, there isn't even empirical evidence for the existence of a soul - but I think that, if we think there's a humane way to kill someone we're kidding ourselves.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted June 18, 2010 14:33      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Xanthine wrote:
I think that, if we think there's a humane way to kill someone we're kidding ourselves.

Not true. It is entirely possible to kill someone in a fashion which ensures that they have no chance of feeling any pain whatsoever... but we'll never do it because it traumatizes the living instead of the condemned.

In a word, explosives.

A powerful enough blast will destroy the body so quickly that the nerves can't fire, making it physically impossible the condemned to perceive any pain*.

The results would be horrific for everyone but the condemed, of course... particularly those who have to clean up afterwards. Maybe more people might stop and think about just what the death penalty means, though, and that would be a good hting. Logically, a nearly instantaneous death with no chance of suffering is less horrific than what is done now, but we'll never do it because it makes the living uncomfortable.

Aside from all that, I'd like to mention that Utah's Attorney General is a douchbag.


*I started to go off on a tangent about why souls wouldn't be able to feel pain, but by the time I'd gotten to whole souls vs amputations and suggested that there were little soul-foreskins littering heaven, I thought better of it.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted June 18, 2010 15:51      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The guy spent 25 years on death row, in most other places, he'd be getting ready for release after that time.

As for method of execution, I think I'd prefer firing squad to being strapped to a hospital bed and injected with lethal chemicals, that's just plain creepy.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted June 18, 2010 18:45      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Well I ask these questions based on my own life experiences. I flipped a tractor while pulling an impliment, during the time it took for the steering wheel to collapase, that really hurt, then the tractor tipped over sideways.

____ While I served on the Navy version of "Self Righting, Self Bailing Rescue Boats". Depending on what side of the boat you were on and what way it rolled over determended how long you were under water, that really burned your lungs also,

____ So how much pain did the condemned feel??

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted June 18, 2010 19:24      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
According to news reports, he rolled one of his hands into a fist and brought it up and down two or three times. I do stuff like that when I'm hurting and don't want to scream. But people can spasm when dying also - the one code I participated in, the call came in as seizures. Arrive on scene and it's actually a dead guy on a locker room floor. But when he went down he was twitching, or so we were told (he was still when we arrived and he was also gone - it was really weird; the minute I saw him I knew he was gone and not coming back and even though we worked really hard, that first impression was the right one). Fortunately, seizures is a high priority call so everyone and everything we needed to work a code was on hand when we arrived.

Respiratory distress and arrest isn't the same deal as cardiac arrest. When you're suffocating, you feel it. You've got some time before the oxygen supply in your blood drops below life support levels, and in that time alarms are going off in your mind and in your flesh. And once your blood O2 gets below that critical level the heart just quits - heart muscle is purely aerobic. No oxygen = no metabolism in the heart muscle cells = no function = death. But a cardiac arrest that wasn't proceeded by respiratory issues is fast and sudden. Maybe the victim complains of chest pain first, but maybe s/he doesn't. And then they just drop. Boom. Done. Not coming back. A bullet to the heart would be like that - a sudden and massive heart attack. A dead guy on a locker room floor. No time to even get the shock response properly going.

But, all that aside, there probably was pain in the tiny time interval between bullet entering flesh and bullet ripping heart. Yes, a bullet travels faster than sound when it leaves the gun, but it starts decelerating on it's way into a body, but your nerves fire pain signals even faster than that.

Steen's most likely right. Short of blowing someone to bits, any method of execution is going to hurt. If we, as a society, can't come to terms with that choice to either cause pain or make a tremendous mess and continue pretending that there is a not-cruel way (other than vaporization) to kill someone then we really shouldn't be in the execution business at all. It's like the people who eat meat but can't bring themselves to slaughter or even witness the slaughter of the animal they'd eat. If you can't square yourself with the methods then don't partake of the results.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted June 19, 2010 03:12      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ First off I do not believe in Capital Punishment. One mistake and the whole system is forever wrong. Maybe Dr. Jack, Dr. K. or what ever had it right when he was using CO. I have been in on confined spaces rescues, those people appear to have fallen asleep, however to a person they all complained about the headache as we flooded their bodies with O2. I have been in conversations with pilots after a cabin heater malfunction, while flying, all stated euphoria or giddiness.

____ So most people would want vengence or see the accused suffer. So some one in a gas chamber listening to their favorite music while CO accumulated in the room, would not fill the bill.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Grummash

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Icon 1 posted June 19, 2010 07:57      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm also against capital punishment in any circumstances. On the practical side I am sure it is cheaper for the state than life imprisonment, and most people accept the potential for a miscarriage of justice even if they do not believe it has ever happened.

However, my reason for opposing capital punishment is simply that if we want a better society we have to be a better society - and accepting that state-sanctioned killing is morally no different than unlawful killing is an important step on the path to that better society.

I do think though, that the Utah guy was right to choose firing squad over lethal injection. There is growing evidence that the cocktail of drugs used in lethal injections can lead to the victim dying a slow suffocating death whilst completely paralysed. A bullet (or several) to the heart will cause a massive drop in blood pressure with loss of consciousness following within a second or two. And, as Xanthine said, once you are fully unconscious you don't feel pain.

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...and yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this earth with envious eyes...

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted June 19, 2010 12:30      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Grummy, with all due respect. I agree, with most of your points, and Xans. Back in the sixtys it was the rule of the four minute mark, each minute after four and the odds kept getting worse. I also remember the gas passer at my surgery saying you're going to sleep now, then the recovery room and a nurse screaming in my ear, wake up.

____ From talking to recovered Carbon Monoxide CO victums non of them experienced any pain or discomfort, until Oxygen was administered. So there are two ways Grumpies and Dr. Jacks.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Snaggy

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Icon 3 posted June 19, 2010 13:04      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Grum, I've read it's more expensive to kill someone...

from http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=42

"The death penalty is much more expensive than life without parole because the Constitution requires a long and complex judicial process for capital cases. This process is needed in order to ensure that innocent men and woman are not executed for crimes they did not commit, and even with these protections the risk of executing an innocent person can not be completely eliminated."

But who cares about money, the death penalty is abhorrent, because innocent people can die and have. That is barbaric, (as is the killing of the guilty.)

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted June 19, 2010 14:22      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If it isn't obvious by now, I'm not in favor of the death penalty either. That's not to say I've never read of a crime and had the immediate, knee-jerk desire to see the fucker fry - in fact, it's that desire that makes me oppose the death penalty. That's not justice. That's revenge. The two are not the same. And we can try to dress it up by picking methods that are supposedly painless, but death is a state function. It doesn't matter how you got there. One corpse is as lifeless as the other and that doesn't make it right. In fact, once I get part my initial reaction I am much more satisfied to read of the guilty party getting sentenced to some ungodly prison term, like 100 years/count of murder and so on and so forth.

But, more than that, our justice system is not perfect. A huge amount of effort is put into miminizing those mistakes - we already tip the balance in the favor of the accused by putting the burden of proof on the accusers - but that doesn't mean mistakes don't happen. Prosecutors get vindictive. Defense attorneys aren't always competent. Evidence gets mishandled. And so on. When faced with a choice and a degree of uncertainty in the outcome, I believe it is best to take a course that can be reversed. And the thing about the death penalty is it's irrevocable. Dead is dead. There's no coming back from that.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted June 19, 2010 16:16      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Curious question: What's the news treatment been like about this in the States?
(I'm not sure where the MoMan picked up the story, as no link was provided.

I ask because I'm not quite there at the moment, and where I am, there's a two page spread including a piece titled "World opinion condemns the US for a 'savage' execution.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted June 19, 2010 18:10      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Dragonman97, I get my news from many sources However Friday Morning it was from here.

http://news.google.com/nwshp?hl=en&tab=gn

____ Because the cat got me up at 4:30 AM and the time zone difference it was on The Google page right away. I believe the first story was from the LATimes.

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Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted June 19, 2010 20:29      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This is what I read. Well, the initial version on Friday morning was a little more stripped down, but it was basically the same shit.

Honestly, it's pretty fscking twisted:
quote:

The five executioners were police officers who volunteered for the task. They stood about 25 feet away, behind a wall cut with a gunport.

One of their .30-caliber Winchester rifles was loaded with a blank so no one would know who fired the fatal shots. Gardner was in a straight-backed metal chair, with sandbags stacked around it to keep the bullets from ricocheting around the cinderblock room at the Utah State Prison.

Nine journalists were permitted to observe the execution, including one from The Associated Press.

When the prison warden pulled back the beige curtain covering the witness room, Gardner was strapped into the chair, his head secured by a strap across his forehead.

Harness-like straps also constrained his chest. His arms were at his sides, handcuffed and strapped to the chair. Affixed to his chest was a white cloth square about 3 inches wide bearing a black target.

The AP reporter never saw the rifles and did not hear the countdown to the trigger-pull. Utah Department of Corrections Director Thomas Patterson said the countdown went "5-4-3..." with the shooters starting to fire at the count of 2.

Seconds before the bullets hit him, Gardner's left thumb twitched against his forefinger. When his chest was pierced, he clenched his fist. His arm pulled up slowly as if he were lifting something and then released. The motion repeated.

There was no blood splattered across the white cinderblock wall and no audible sounds from the condemned. Although the dark blue prison jumpsuit made it difficult to see, blood seemed to be pooling around Gardner's waist.

As the medical examiner checked for vital signs, the hood was pulled back, revealing Gardner's ashen face. His head was tilted back and to the right and his mouth slightly open. He was pronounced dead at 12:17 a.m.

About an hour later, reporters were allowed to inspect the chamber. There was a strong smell of bleach but no sign of blood. The only evidence that a man had been shot were four small holes where the bullets struck the black wood panels behind the chair.



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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted June 20, 2010 03:30      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Curious just curious. I have tracked deer a long way through the woods after a single shot through the heart. I have watched Hogs while being bleed out for the meat. I have watched Road kill thrash about after a fatal hit. I have read that the guillotine is not so good either. As the directer of the event pulls the head from the basket, witnesses have reported facial movements eyes blinking, lips opening and closing.

____ Capital punishment sucks. Some here in Michigan want to pass a law that makes killing a LEO (Law Enforcment Officer) a Capital Offense. I know of too many bad cops.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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maximile

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Icon 1 posted June 20, 2010 04:02      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Why the heart rather than the head? Does it make it less painful for the victim, or less gruesome for the observers?
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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted June 20, 2010 06:27      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Ages old superstition, non-beating heart=death.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged


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