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Author Topic: Brokeback Mountain
Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 20:42      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
First off, folks they really aren't cowboys, they are involved with sheep.

Spungo is madder than two whores at a chastity festival over that.

I never went and saw the flick, figuring it was one of those movies that guys star in so they can be a shoo-in at awards time, and give Rush Limbaugh ammunition to complain about "Liberal" Hollywood -- you know the place where John Wayne, Ronald Reagan, Clint Eastwood, and that feller who played Moses and talks for the NRA is from. You know, "Liberal Country."

Like I wrote earlier, I never actually saw the flick, a co-worker did.

I went cruising for hot geek chicks at the hot geek chick coffee bar. Met some, too. And when they asked, "Hey, there is only one of you to party with, Colonel Panic -- do you have any friends?" I had to reply. "Yeah, but it's Friday night and he's out watching 'Brokeback Mountain.'"

After that the hot geek chicks didn't seem to interested in me or my friend.

So mind me, don't go see that movie, or hang out with guys who think it's "artsy."

Colonel Panic

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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2006 15:49            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I haven't seen it and have no desire to, but one of our EMinds cohosts did. Here's what he had to say:
quote:
Brokeback Mountain reminded me of “Chocolat”, the film that won bunches of honors several years ago. Why it did was that I think it is the homosexual equivalent of that feminist treatise. Chocolat was a construct of feminist notions. It was women who bonded over chocolate in a patriarchal community run by bad religious people. Men and religion bad. Women and chocolate good. It was made to speak for feminists. That was my view.

Brokeback Mountain (let me say that I thought it was a good movie) struggled in unavoidable ways I think. Firstly, it attempted to demonstrate that a homosexual experience is possible for any of us in the right situation. It couched this idea in a cliché presentation of what liberalism believes the rest of the nation is about. It showed us cowboys. Grunting, dusty cowboys – in my opinion an approach skewed by the “they love cowboys” political hits that adorned the years of Reagan, and now Bush, with their cowboy hat and horse-riding imagery. It borrowed from the European slam at “American cowboys” to create characters that they believe we will approve of. (It did not present two suburban accountants because we would quickly dismiss their experience. We are in the range of such homosexuality all the time.) And these two cowboys, whom we are led to believe were otherwise not drawn to men in a sexual way, found themselves away from anyone else, talking about their childhoods and upbringing (really sharing as they say) and drinking. The next thing you know they’re screwing one another in a very cowboy way with grunting and punching and manhandling. The film de-fagged them completely. No lipstick, no femininity, no flaminess. (I won’t describe other scenes that left me with this impression because you should see the movie without knowing too much.)

But when I see a love story I am drawn into it by seeing the attractiveness of the woman and in vicariously experiencing the surge of feelings and desire. Brokeback suffers (for me as an audience anyway) from not being able to vicariously draw me into the experience. If I watch Pretty Woman, for instance, I can become drawn to Julia Roberts’ character and really see how the guy can fall for her; a crucial requirement of a love story. With Brokeback, I wasn’t drawn to either character that way. I just don’t respond to men that way emotionally or sensorially.

Where I think Brokeback was like Chocolat was that it had a politicized set of characters. There wasn’t a single heterosexual relationship in the movie that was functional nor were there any decent heterosexual men. That, to me, is an equivalent backdrop to the men=bad, women=good Chocolat canvas.

You should all see it. Besides being a good movie with lots of powerful scenes the scenery is stunningly beautiful and there will undoubtedly be lots of talk about the movie. I stick by my sense of the political in this flick – GWB has already had it put in his face. And that didn’t happen with any other movies. Why?

He brings up an excellent point about the vicarious-relationship thing, which seems to me as if it would render the film, to many men (including me, I think), as inaccessible as if the soundtrack were in Turkish and there were no subtitles.

Despite this, it looks like Brokeback will walk away from the Oscars with a bunch of hardware, including Best Picture...which, as John Scalzi points out, would likely make it the first Best Picture winner not to break $100 million at the box office since The English Patient.

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Snaggy

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Icon 3 posted January 31, 2006 17:41      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My brother saw it in Calgary, where he said the theatre was packed.

During the movie, everyone in the audience was saying stuff like "Oh that's Beggar's Gulch" and such, as it was filmed in Alberta and they were recognizing the local scerery. [Big Grin]

He thought it was a great movie, btw.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2006 04:15      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
I haven't seen it and have no desire to, but one of our EMinds cohosts did. Here's what he had to say:
quote:
...If I watch Pretty Woman, for instance, I can become drawn to Julia Roberts’ character and really see how the guy can fall for her; a crucial requirement of a love story. With Brokeback, I wasn’t drawn to either character that way. I just don’t respond to men that way emotionally or sensorially.

So, the Macho Conservative American Male queues up to go see Brokeback Mountain, is moved to write a review of it for his Macho Conservative American Male buddies, and then feels the need to point out that he wasn't attracted to either of the male leads.

I'll bet he tells them that The Closet is where he keeps his guns ...

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Serenak

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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2006 13:21      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Having said that TFD I have watched Longtime Companion, Priscilla Queen of the Desert, and a slew of other openly "gay" films and enjoyed them and in some cases (Longtime Companion in particular) been deeply moved by the story and or characters.

I haven't seen Brokeback Mountain so I can't comment on it in particular but the fact that someone said they watched it but found it lacking because the characters did not engage them in any meaningful way does not /have/ to imply anything other than the fact that the film did nothing for them personally.

I get your drift completely TFD but the reviewer said it was a good movie and merely said it was hobbled in the same way as Chocolat by forcing the characters into particular straits (no pun intended) that made the characters feel somewhat unreal to them.

I seen a whole raft of movies that probably looked good at script stage - but were so filmed as to make me not care 2 hoots for any character in them or what might or might not happen... Result in my eyes... rubbish film

I have also watched some real "boys' own" tosh movies with incredibly predictable plots and outcomes that for all that kept me gripped and "rooting" for the heroes...

Just my 2c...

[Smile]

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"So if you want my address - it's No. 1 at the end of the bar, where I sit with the broken angels, clutching at straws and nursing my scars..."

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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2006 14:33            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TFD: Scott (the guy who wrote the words I quoted above) actually went to see it with his girlfriend. And, to be absolutely fair, another of our EMinders, a woman with the handle "Vedrana," replied to him thus:
quote:
I just have to disagree with last part of: "That, to me, is an equivalent backdrop to the men=bad, women=good Chocolat canvas."

I don't quite remember that Chocolat had such a strict division. If we're talking about the same Chocolat? Juliette Binoche, Judi Dench, Johnny Depp...? Werent there quite a few women=bad characters as well as some men=good characters (Johnny for one). I saw Chocolat as a movie that spoke of personal freedom to live as best suits YOU, no matter what your gender. But, granted, for the most part it did concentrate on women's issues and struggles.

To which Scott answered:
quote:
You could be right about the characters in Chocolat, Vedrana. I admit that it's been years since I saw it, and that was only once. But I did have the clear impression that the movie was a cinematic statement of the prevailing conventional wisdom of the women's issues folks.
Among EMinders, conservatives are a minority...and none of the male conservatives are all that concerned with being "macho."

I just thought Scott's commentary was somewhat more insightful than Colonel Panic's, which is why I brought it here.

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2006 15:13      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
I haven't seen it and have no desire to, but one of our EMinds cohosts did. Here's what he had to say:
quote:
...If I watch Pretty Woman, for instance, I can become drawn to Julia Roberts’ character and really see how the guy can fall for her; a crucial requirement of a love story. With Brokeback, I wasn’t drawn to either character that way. I just don’t respond to men that way emotionally or sensorially.

So, the Macho Conservative American Male queues up to go see Brokeback Mountain, is moved to write a review of it for his Macho Conservative American Male buddies, and then feels the need to point out that he wasn't attracted to either of the male leads.

I'll bet he tells them that The Closet is where he keeps his guns ...

So he's wrong for not being attracted to the gay guy?

That almost sounds heterophobic.

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"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

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Geordie

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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2006 16:15      Profile for Geordie     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have to say I did not enjoy Brokeback Mountain all that much. It is a beautiful movie, with a story and a message that I like, but I don't think it had the power of the book, which I had read several years ago. Leaving the theater, I did not feel different than I did going in.

And despite the male homosexual story line, it is written by a woman. Why is most male/male slash fiction written by women? Is is it because women are still restricted from so many roles that the characters in fiction play?

Is the woman who writes a story where Spock and Kirk get it on doing so because she identifies with one of those characters, but cannot identify with the alien bimbos that Kirk usually beds, or T'Pring? These questions have always made me view story lines similar to Brokeback Mountain as being suspect, and in the end it detracts from my enjoyment of the story.

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Geordie

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2006 17:09      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nerdwithnofriends:
So he's wrong for not being attracted to the gay guy?

That almost sounds heterophobic.

No it's simply that in Erbo's first post he seemed a tad over anxious to establish his credentials as a rugged no nonsense regular guy, which made the Druid (and myself) snigger.

I found Monty Python's Lunberjack song running in my mind.... [Wink]

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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2006 17:44      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well i haven't seen Humpback Mountain or read the book or whatever. I did, however really enjoy Lonesome Dove, Which Larry McMurtry wrote (both the movie and book).

I felt like I had just spent some "quality time" with the scoutmaster when I saw McMurtry say that his regret about the film was that he hadn't lived it.

I had for years tried to ignore Terms of Endearment and Last Picture Show and just kind of hoped against hope that Gus and Woodrow really didn't rent pigs. But now I wonder, maybe they did "rent pigs".

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2006 22:40      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Note to self: remember to sprinkle these
[Wink] [Razz] [evil]
liberally about in future postings

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted February 02, 2006 07:05      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
just for this post  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted February 02, 2006 07:10      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ya get it? their all gay emoticons!
get it?

see the humor there?

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted February 02, 2006 07:57      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Saw it. Liked it. One of the beautiful things about being a woman is I don't have to woory about being macho, and I've so far managed to live untainted by freaky fan fiction. I've enjoyed most of Ang Lee's stuff, come to think of it. My big beef is how they couldn't quite make Jack look older. They put a mustache on him but that didn't quite cut it. I couldn't really identify with any of the chracters but that's not a requirement for liking a movie.

I teared up at the end. This almost never happens to me at the movies.

You can think of the movie as a morality play on what extramarital affairs do to relationships. [Razz]

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted February 02, 2006 09:23      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have no interest in seeing brokeback mountain. If for no other reason than I hate movies like that in general -- even if it's about a big tittied blonde and a guy*. The fact that it's two dudes doesn't change that.

I don't care so much about machoness. I don't have a hard time saying when a guy is good looking. I don't want to do him. It's not different from pointing out a girl who's good looking. I have my fiancee, and she's all I want or need. She points out guys and girls she thinks are good looking to me as well. Is that supposed to make me gay? I'm not even curious.

* Now, if it was two big tittied blondes, I might see it. [Wink] (I'm kidding.)

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HalfVast

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Icon 1 posted February 02, 2006 13:19      Profile for HalfVast     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Chesty wrote:
ya get it? their all gay emoticons!
get it?

see the humor there

So what you're trying to say is their all gay, your all gay, yada, yada...
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Nitrozac

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Icon 6 posted February 02, 2006 14:03      Profile for Nitrozac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have to admit, I don't want to see this movie, especially if it wins an academy award. [Razz] I dunno, I just don't want to spend two hours of my life watching a movie about a couple of gay cowboys. Just doesn't appeal to me. Plus, my eyes are still burning from that super gay movie, Alexander.... because of the Colin Farell's ever-growing mullet! What did you think I meant? [Big Grin]
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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted February 02, 2006 17:58            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Here's another take on Brokeback Mountain, from Janet, another EMinds conference host (and a liberal, so bite me very much, TFD [Wink] ).
quote:
I saw Brokeback Mountain about a month or so ago and my impressions of the film are quite different from Scott's. Having gone to see it alone, I had only my own thoughts afterward -- all the way home. I was deeply moved. But I have to say that I saw absolutely nothing “political” about the film. And although what everyone seems to talk about is “the gay” relationship, I don’t see it as a film about sexual orientation at all.

It’s more about being unable to follow through with your desires because fear. It’s about trying to live life with limited options, not only because of who you are but because of the time and place you were born into. (For those who don't know, the initial attraction between the 2 cowboys occurred in the mid 60s) It’s also about the pain of struggling to find your place in a society that condemns almost everything about you. Granted things have much improved these days, but it’s still a tragedy when people are denied the right to be who they are, no matter what that is.

As far as the comparison to “Chocolat” – it has been so long since I saw that film; I just can’t remember enough about it to say “yea” or “nay”.

That's a different take on it, certainly, and suggests that those critics who are focusing on "teh ghey" may be missing the point. (Me, I'm just not much for "relationship" movies, whether they involve gay cowboys or not. Give me a good SF movie any day...)
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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted February 02, 2006 18:08      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
(Me, I'm just not much for "relationship" movies, whether they involve gay cowboys or not. Give me a good SF movie any day...)

Good SF movies are about relationships. Look at ST:WoK. It is all about how Khan and Kirk relate to each other, their history, and Khan's desire for revenge. Star Wars is about Luke's relationship with Vader and Leia and Kenobi. The TV show Babylon 5 was all about relationships. G'Kar/Londo and Sheridan/Delenn primarily. Serenity was about River and how she related to the rest of the crew, especially Mal.

Almost every film with a good plot will be based on relationships, just not necessarily romantic ones.

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"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."
—Miss Piggy

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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted February 02, 2006 19:15      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The best films do involve relationships. Three great westerns that explore relationships Are all about how a complex man deals with complex situations.

In the first, A wanted man must break down his wall of separation to meld with a group of strangers in an attempt to survive.

Then a man loses his family and dedicates his life to finding his lost neice.

The third deals with the complex set of egos when men, even young men, come together for a common goal.

The thing that is wonderful about these three is that they deal with complex social situations without throwing their "craft" in your face. When films are done right you don't know you've expanded your world. you just think you had a good time.

And the most absolute wonderful thing is that men can express their love for each other in their own way, with their weaknesses exposed and their raw souls in the open without ever considering sticking their weenie up another guys dunghole.

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magefile
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Icon 1 posted February 02, 2006 20:35      Profile for magefile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TMBWITW,PB:
Serenity was about River and how she related to the rest of the crew, especially Mal.

And beyond that, there were also:
River-Simon (and the ensuing issues with Kaylee-Simon)
River-Kaylee
Mal-Jayne
Mal-Inara
Inara-Kaylee
Book-Kaylee
Book-Mal
Jayne-Simon-River
Zoe-Wash
Zoe-Mal

And heck, those are just the big ones. What happens when you put Jayne, Kaylee and Simon all in a room together? How about the way Mal's behavior changes when he's interacting with Jayne (nice guy) versus Simon or Inara (sarcastic, hidden in a shell, a bit more "I don't care for anyone but me")?

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Let them be stupid - the market will sort it out.

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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted February 02, 2006 21:04            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TMBWITW,PB:
Good SF movies are about relationships. Look at ST:WoK. It is all about how Khan and Kirk relate to each other, their history, and Khan's desire for revenge. Star Wars is about Luke's relationship with Vader and Leia and Kenobi. The TV show Babylon 5 was all about relationships. G'Kar/Londo and Sheridan/Delenn primarily. Serenity was about River and how she related to the rest of the crew, especially Mal.

Almost every film with a good plot will be based on relationships, just not necessarily romantic ones.

OK, so I phrased it incorrectly. I meant the "chick flick" kind of movies (and I don't know if Brokeback qualifies). I didn't see Serenity, but I'm familiar with the other works you cite--and I know that the way to get some really great acting is to put Andreas Katsulas and Peter Jurasik in a room together and then get the hell out of their way. [Smile] And Wrath of Khan not only had to do with the relationship between Kirk and Khan, but that between Spock and the rest of the crew, especially Kirk. The "mentor" relationship of Spock and Saavik is also important.

Guess the "relationship" pill needs to be sugar-coated before I'll swallow it. [Big Grin]

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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted February 03, 2006 08:06            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Keeping this on topic...some EMinders have highlighted the political angle of Brokeback Mountain. Scott asked, "Janet, if the film isn't at all about sexual orientation, why do you think the President was asked whether or not he'd seen the movie?" And another conference host, "Boldface," said:
quote:
Janet, although I hvaen't seen the movie, I know people who have who thought it was very good (like my daughter), and have kept up with it through the news. I'm sure it's a very good movie and that Ang Lee is a very good director, but it's crystal clear that this movie is getting the attention that it's getting for political reasons: Hollywood, and the Oscar votes, are touting the movie because it's about a gay relationship. Gay people are politically correct these days, and Hollywood has a lot of gay people. Now obviously it's a very good movie or else people wouldn't be going to see it, but there are plenty of good movies every year.

I'm not a big movie goer, and I really don't care that much about Oscars or anything else, but it's amazing to me that you don't see the politics behind the amount of attention the movie is getting compared to, say, King Kong.

(Well, Bold, Peter Jackson got his big Hollywood celebration last year, when LoTR:RoTK picked up so many trophies...)

He later points out that Hollywood sees attacking "middle class bourgeois values" as one of its missions; in that, Brokeback could be considered similar to American Beauty.

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supaboy
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Icon 1 posted February 03, 2006 08:19      Profile for supaboy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Chesty: LOFL! [Big Grin]
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magefile
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Icon 1 posted February 03, 2006 09:34      Profile for magefile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
Keeping this on topic...some EMinders have highlighted the political angle of Brokeback Mountain. Scott asked, "Janet, if the film isn't at all about sexual orientation, why do you think the President was asked whether or not he'd seen the movie?"

Look at the list of nominees for Best Picture: Brokeback Mountain, Good Night and Good Luck, Munich, and two that I'm not familiar with. All 3 of those (and I believe Crash, as well) are extremely political. What about past winners and nominees? A lot of those were very political, as well.
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