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Author Topic: Opinions, if you please...
Colonel Panic
BlabberMouth, the Next Generation
Member # 1200

Icon 1 posted January 15, 2008 21:44      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by spungo:
Simply put -- there is a difference between you. No surprise, as you're two different people. However annoyed you may feel, you have to accept that no one is categorically correct in these matters -- there is the little matter of one's right of opinion. You can't make people think the way you do (and why anyone would wish this, I don't know). It's also somewhat unfair on your bloke to canvas views from others without allowing him to present his side of things. It's like you've decided that you're right, and you want others to validate your perspective.

What he wrote. In spades.

Plus a couple of other things ...

You have no self-respect which is why you work your butt off around the house to serve him. You confuse housework with love. Your Mama taught you that, and she was a nut job.

On the other hand, he has no self-respect because he allows you to bully him.

The real sad news is no matter how much he pitched in around the house you'd still be unhappy. Because it's not the house that needs cleaning -- it's your attic and his, too.

It's called co-dependency, sweetie. And without some very serious counseling, the both of you would fall into the same pattern with somebody else.

CP

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Free! Free at last!

Posts: 1809 | From: Glacier Melt, USA | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
geekgoddess
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Icon 1 posted January 16, 2008 12:35      Profile for geekgoddess     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
You have no self-respect which is why you work your butt off around the house to serve him. You confuse housework with love. Your Mama taught you that, and she was a nut job
That's an interesting thing for you to say, especially since you've never met me. You actually couldn't be any further off base.

quote:
It's called co-dependency, sweetie. And without some very serious counseling, the both of you would fall into the same pattern with somebody else.
Well, he added a little slack to the chain around my ankle. Now it reaches the bed, stove AND my computer. I feel like we're making progress. [devil wand]

quote:
The real sad news is no matter how much he pitched in around the house you'd still be unhappy. Because it's not the house that needs cleaning -- it's your attic and his, too.
No. It's my house. Some people aren't happy living in filth. They especially are not happy when they work full time, are putting themselves through school, and are trying to maintain a certain lifestyle and they don't feel like they are getting enough help from their significant other. My attic is cobweb free, but thank you for the amateur psychoanalysis.

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Posts: 79 | From: The Abyss | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged
geekgoddess
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Icon 1 posted January 16, 2008 12:47      Profile for geekgoddess     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
If I were a woman, I wouldn't want to spend my life with a guy who expects me to look after him like I'm his mother. Especially if you're not yet married, he has no right to expect you to wait on him hand and foot. There is accountability in any relationship, but obviously he doesn't think he has to be accountable to you for his actions. It's high time he was taught otherwise. I get irritated with this kind of guy- he's the kind that perpetuates womenkind's negative stereotype of men that I try so hard to disprove.

Just my two cents' worth...

Wow! A man who doesn't think I'm totally screwed in the head or that I deserve to live a life of servitude just because I'm a female. Kudos to your wife for finding a good guy. [Applause]

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Posts: 79 | From: The Abyss | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged
dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted January 16, 2008 16:15      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What can you do? Try giving him chores to do that don't require such intricate detail. Like Ashitaka said: cooking, and laundry, instead of detailed cleaning. And if he doesn't fold the laundry *JUST RIGHT*, don't make a federal case out of it! Accept it as a character flaw and deal with it. Moreover, when he does chores, be appreciative of his effort, even if they're all messed up and he did them all wrong; at least say "thanks for trying."

Ugh...on this general note:

So...I've been training an absolute n00b of late; someone who apparently has /no/ office background whatsoever. This is an extremely frustrating experience, and I tend to think it has similar parallels. However, for me, I'm not willing to lower my standards, as I don't believe in slipshod jobs, and won't have things reflect poorly of me.

I've done the 'thank you very much' thing...but I have curbed that if I don't get what I want. Instead, I make sure it's done correctly, even if I have to repeat myself a few times and go over the finer details. The bothersome part of this is that I could get the job done many times faster myself...but...along the lines of the 'fishing' parable: If I can finally train him on a task, I should hopefully never have to do that task myself again. I have recently done this on something that was wasting a lot of my time, and it's working out. I think I've even got him in a decent frame of mind about simple memos and the like. (Early on, I asked "Please take this list, pick x, y, and z out, and e-mail John Doe about these problems." That took two days and 3 follow-ups. I /expected/ it would be done in under a 1/2 hr. Ack!)

What's the moral of the story? Start with the easy stuff...figure out what can be done reliably, and build on that. Oh, and cut your losses with things that just don't get done after thorough review - pick a different task.

Of course, there's a little catch in the comparison... this fellow effectively reports to me, and if he doesn't get the work done, well, I'll see to it that the work gets done! (More officially, he reports to my boss, but I'm a senior /foo bar baz/.)

(Oh, and if someone would be willing to help me out with TPS reports in return for coffee or _____, [but not likely $$$], let me know. [Wink] )

P.S. I'm no neat freak...but boy...my ex could put me to shame on lack of tidiness. So oddly enough, things can go both ways in that equation. Of course, it's pretty rude to try and organize someone else's stuff, so you just have to grin and bear it (since I wasn't living there...just spent a bit of time) ... without a chair to sit on, and a sofa that was covered with clutter. Yes ma'am...love is standing around while weary. [Resolution? (Besides splitting) Finding a chair from elsewhere, rather than actually clearing the clutter. Oh, and then clearing the clutter to make room for the new kitten.]

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

Posts: 9331 | From: Westchester County, New York | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Colonel Panic
BlabberMouth, the Next Generation
Member # 1200

Icon 1 posted January 16, 2008 18:33      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by geekgoddess:

Some people aren't happy living in filth. They especially are not happy when they work full time, are putting themselves through school, and are trying to maintain a certain lifestyle and they don't feel like they are getting enough help from their significant other. My attic is cobweb free, but thank you for the amateur psychoanalysis.

I'm happy living in a clean home.

You are unhappy living in a dirty home.

If you need professional psychoanalysis to understand the difference, so be it.

Take responsibility for the choices you make in life.

Here is some interesting reading:

http://www.allaboutlifechallenges.org/enabling-and-codependency-faq.htm

CP

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Free! Free at last!

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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted January 16, 2008 19:48      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Just skimmin' through and thought I would add my very pushy 2 cents in.

Sounds like you have several ways to handle this. I can think of two i would recommend.

1st way:

Disengage. Just disengage from it all. Let him know you love him and all that hello-kitty crap but then lay down the new law. From now on you do nothing for him, and he uses nothing of yours. Cooking dinner? just enough for you, one plate, silverware setting etc. clean up your mess and roll on. etc. he's a biggun, let him do his own meal and clean his own. laundry? he does his own, at the laundromat, you do yours in your washer/dryer in the house etc. If he doesnt like it, change or move on buddy. This way you avoid the expectations and dissapointments and anger and can focus on the good things he brings to the relationship

Which leads me to way #2

If the negatives for you outweigh the positives, ask him to move out. Keep dating but have your own places. Why is it automatically meet date move in marry. why not just keep seperate places since living together is driving you batshit?

and if this is one of those cant/wont leave each other cuz no matter what we looooove each other hello-kitty forehead stamps, then go with the direction Col panic is indicating and get counseling, couples and/or individual.

Good luck

oh, ps maybe a 3rd way, both pitch in for housekeeping service once or twice a week

Posts: 765 | From: virginia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted January 16, 2008 22:45      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The tomcat thing should be telling you something, geekgoddess. You can try going all Lysistrata on his ass, but if he's making you that unhappy maybe it's best to just send him on his merry way and take a nice long break from relationships.

Living with someone who's more than just another *(^[email protected]#(*&($^#!!! roommate can be tough. My bf moved in with me back in July. It took some adjusting. However, even before he moved in we'd already discussed how to split the housework and the bills and what rights and responsibilities we have to each others pets. Six months on, the initial agreements have held, in no small part because we hold each other to them. I'd be lying if I said there's never any friction, but we both have the same basic idea of what clean is and what acceptably vs. unacceptably messy is and honestly, we both drive each other nuts sometimes. But the good outweighs the bad.

A general note regarding supervising n00bs, in any situation. This is something I've learned from being on both ends of the seniority ladder in a lab. There is a difference between giving a correction and making a n00b feel like a complete fsck-up. If you're standing by to catch them if they stumble, they know it. If you're standing by just waiting for them to screw up, they know it too. And, when, not if, they screw up, it's one thing to explain what was wrong and guide them through the trouble-shooting. It is another to rub the poor kid's nose in it and make them feel like a wretched fsck-up. It's one thing to give helpful hints, another to ride on someone and jump down their throat every time they move (that said, let the punishment fit the crime - if they're doing something that could land someone in the hospital, jump away). One prevents mistakes. The other causes them. You get on a n00b too much and they will shut down and freeze up. They will retreat into themselves and become afraid to ask for help because they will pick up that "S/he fscked up again. Why do I always get stuck with the retards?" vibe you're spitting out. This happened to me during one of my rotations my first year. One night, a staff scientist in the lab got on my case left right and center about everything, including drinking soda at my desk. The next morning, I went to pick up a pipet and I fscking froze. I had to walk away and come back. Twice.

The last thing I've learned is this: loosen up. There are usually lots of right ways to do something. Yours is but one of them. I show my trainees how I do things, tell them why I do it this way, and then let them figure out what works for them. And your trainee is going to be slow at first. So were you when you started. Speed comes with practice. So does getting things right.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted January 17, 2008 05:36      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Isn't it amazing that so much relationship friction gets aired in arguments about housework. It is one of those areas where the male and female brains can often seem to be on different planets.

Now I do think gg, that your bf does need to shape up, but but but.....have you tried thinking about how he must see things too?

You describe how after a hard days work you cook clean iron etc etc, run a fair amount of his social life even buying gifts on his behalf, and how nothing he does to help is done well enough. If I were him I'd feel trapped and rather infantilised if treated like that, as that's almost exactly how my mother looked after me as a child. It may well be that you are an easy going, tolerant person, but your post does give the impression to me of someone rather controlling and ever so slightly anal. Please forgive me if I'm completely off beam, but if that rings true, remember that if you are going to share your life and home with someone, you have try to make some space in both for that other person with all their quirks, and inexplicable character traits.

As I said at the start I do believe he must change, but that change must come from inside him, not in response to an order from you, and maybe that change might be more likely to happen if you consciously avoid trying to mould him, and be encouraging by trying as much as possible to see the best side of his character. Love does change us and lets us grow, but seldom in ways that are predictable or controllable by the other party. That's what makes it interesting too.

On a practical note, one of the few things I learned during my twenties was that there are very few people I can live with. It's best not to live together, until you have a pretty clear idea that it might work out. If this relationship sputters out as seems likely, and you fall in love with another boy who lives in a pile of pizza boxes and old socks, don't imagine he will become Charlie Clean if he moves in. It's much less messy ending relationships if you are not living together too, most of us need to go through quite a few before we find one that really works out.

And don't become Anal Cleaning Woman. She is the most boring superhero of the lot. Even Superman won't talk to her and he is as dull as they come. [Smile]

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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geekgoddess
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Icon 1 posted January 17, 2008 15:03      Profile for geekgoddess     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
It's much less messy ending relationships if you are not living together too, most of us need to go through quite a few before we find one that really works out.
I'm finding that out the hard way. Live and learn. And then pack your stuff and find a new place.

quote:
And don't become Anal Cleaning Woman. She is the most boring superhero of the lot. Even Superman won't talk to her and he is as dull as they come. [Smile]

I'm ALSO finding this out. I would much rather be Super Fun Sexy Girlfriend. I started out that way, but somewhere along the way I became Mrs. Feels Taken Advantage of And is Starting to Hate Her Boyfriend. Its high time to turn back the clock.
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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted January 17, 2008 17:42      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well...if you ever feel the need to practice one of those roles...I'm sure you could find a volunteer or two. [Wink]

(And oh dear...the b3tan in me just took a horrible meaning to one of those roles. *sigh*)

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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ora
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2008 04:46      Profile for ora     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi GG,

First this all sucks, though it was a while ago now. I hope you ain't still in this situation. You do deserve better, and that is a very lame way to be treated, i hope you resolve it or convert the bf to the ex-bf shortly. Do not stay on hoping it will change, change it or leave.

While I hope you get that I am on your side, i have to say to:

quote:
Originally posted by geekgoddess:
I just probably follow up by saying that I have NEVER told him that he did a substandard job, EVER. I just quietly follow after him and take care of it myself, wondering what kind of person has to have it explained to them how to scrub a kitchen sink. Household chores are not rocket science. I guess my point is that I should never have to ask.

Martyr!!! I say this as I have done the same. If you do that you just build up resentment in yourself without giving him a chance to do anything about it. He will then act all surprised when you eventually blow up about it. Learned this the hard way, had to realize even in a situation with a pretty bad gf the way I handled it contributed strongly to why it got so bad. Even when the other person is being a total ass you always need to consider what you did to allow that, blame is almost never 100% on one side, even if its only 99%/1% i generally find the injured party contributed somehow.

Good luck! And given the cute photo and nice sounding person if you ditch the bf and end up in London..... [Razz]

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geekgoddess
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2008 09:23      Profile for geekgoddess     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Even when the other person is being a total ass you always need to consider what you did to allow that, blame is almost never 100% on one side, even if its only 99%/1% i generally find the injured party contributed somehow.
I totally agree. I definitely shouldn't have bitten my tongue for so long.

quote:
Good luck! And given the cute photo and nice sounding person if you ditch the bf and end up in London..... [Razz]
I guess I should follow up by saying that I did in fact 'ditch' the bf, a little over two weeks ago. Even though we have nearly 3 years of history and I love him as a person, it just wasn't working. Towards the end I ended up tolerating so many things (WELL beyond laziness and housework) that I was losing self-respect.

Thanks to all of you who offered your wise words, I do appreciate it. [Smile]

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ora
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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2008 00:51      Profile for ora     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wahay for geekgoddess! Sad when it comes to that but you'll end up happier.
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pixel_pusher01

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Icon 14 posted February 04, 2008 20:08      Profile for pixel_pusher01     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GeekGoddess, I salute you for your decision! I learned the hard way, a solid relationship starts with self respect. If you don't have self-respect before you enter into a relationship, then you are not equipped with boundaries that say, "I will tolerate this standard of treatment, cleanliness, communication, etc. and NOTHING LESS." Without those boundaries, any significant other will take advantage of you because they think there's no limit to what they can get away with. This is what appeared to happen with your ex- the numerous extended disappearances, the lack of concern for your mutual living comforts and standards, etc. I'm sure that this was no easy decision for you- not easy to arrive at and certainly not easy to follow through on. But believe me when I say, you (and he, to be honest) will be the better for it.

--------------------
Mike: "You know, a lot of people have compared this scene to the climactic chariot scene in "Ben Hur."
Tom Servo: "Uh-huh?"
Mike: "Yeah, you know, they usually say, "Ben Hur was really good. This movie totally sucks."

óMystery Science Theater 3000, episode #820- Space Mutiny

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