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Author Topic: Is love obsolete?
CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted November 14, 2005 13:34      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
The bottom line: There's no justification for love. Love just is.

[Applause] [Applause] [Applause]

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Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

Posts: 2463 | From: Utarrrrggggghhh!!!!!!!! | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted November 14, 2005 14:11      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CommanderShroom:
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
The bottom line: There's no justification for love. Love just is.

[Applause] [Applause] [Applause]
I'll second that, Shroom.
Well put Xanthine [thumbsup]

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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skylar
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Icon 1 posted November 14, 2005 16:28      Profile for skylar     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quoting GM
*shakes head*
I blame you for making me so bitter. Lol, j/k, GM. I blame the government. If in doubt, always blame the government [Wink] .

If not for the suffering that it causes, it not for the pain... It wouldn't be so pleasurable.
But what if the pain outweighs any pleasure that you may have felt? In that case, isn't the whole thing just an exercise in pointlessness?

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fs

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Icon 1 posted November 14, 2005 17:13      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
serish == U? U hasn't posted for a dogs age, but he posted a lot of the same kind of thing.

I don't think it's U. He's not the type to come around under a new name. I also see that he's been here in the recent visitors list sometimes.

Plus, I thought serishema was a girl.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted November 14, 2005 17:15      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sky you are much too bright, and much to sweet to believe what you have posted here. At bottom you have to have faith in love, because the alternative is just so sterile. You have to leave yourself open to life love and adventure, or you will just die of boredom, and then suffer regret.

Perhaps you might try to not give quite so much of yourself, when you fall next time. Try to keep things light hearted and fun. It'll make you seem more mysterious too! While it is always a roller coaster ride, you might then feel less broken up if things go wrong. Most people only have their heart thoroughly broken once, as the process is not only wretched, but also wastes so much darn time! I am sure you will have the much happier experience you deserve next time.

And remember, if anyone does treat you badly, just tell and I'll see what I can arrange! [evil]

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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted November 14, 2005 18:49      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hey girl. The bitterness I can understand but that road leads only to an empty dead end. Please trust me on that.

I have been physically hurt by "love". Bitter and cynical do not begin to describe it. But those emotions poison your soul, and twist who you really are inside.

It is hard,but try to let go of your bitterness and fear and let other people get to know and enjoy you.

Better to let go and enjoy the rush and the joy of infatuation and love. Just don't take the infatuation so seriously. Sometimes they fade, but sometimes they deepen and become something truly amazing. How will you ever know if you don't let yourself find out?

Why not just try? Why not laugh while you risk it?

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supergoo

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Icon 1 posted November 14, 2005 20:10      Profile for supergoo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Neither be cynical about love;
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment
it is as perennial as the grass.


[Smile]

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Y los sueos, sueos son.

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Black_Pearls_and_Lace
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Icon 1 posted November 14, 2005 22:00      Profile for Black_Pearls_and_Lace     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What I was going to say, that love and infatuation are very different things, has already been wonderfully said.

My impression from reading the initial post is that you have constructed an image of yourself as an utilitarian machine, geared towards production and trying to cut maintenance costs short. A robot cannot sweep a floor properly if there are toys all over the floor. Therefore, toys are an incovenience since they decrease productivity. A computer will process an important application more slowly if there are unimportant ones running at the same time. Et caetera.

Repeat after me: I am not a robot. I am not a computer.

You are human and humans need overall happiness in order to function. The tricky thing about happiness is that it is not monolithic, but multi-faceted. We need security, success in our undertakings (whether it's building a perfect body or writing the great novel or designing the meanest computer ever), affection, belonging, love, and many other things. Our brains have instinctive, emotional, and cognitive components. Unless you extirpated parts of your brain, you could not be strictly rational. Therefore, you need to understand that all components play a part in your life and need at to be at least in fair (if not perfect) balance in order for the whole to function well. For example, you cannot function well if you lack affection and love. Your work may be good, but you'll feel sad, empty, and bitter. And since work is only part of what you are as a human being, you are not functioning very well on the whole right now. Most of us aren't, but it's always possible to improve your general state.

So the first step is to accept your non-rational parts and devise strategies for how to better deal with them. Don't see them as incoveniences for your work, but opportunities to expand your human potential and experience.

Also, love is not exactly irrational. We may be attracted to random people, but we only get to love those with whom we feel a deeper emotional and intellectual connection, those who, in the long-term, will allow us to function better, as a more complex human being. So we have control over whom we fall in love with to a certain extent. That's why most of us take a certain amount of time choosing a life partner and why we don't just get married at 15 (even if it were legal, we wouldn't be doing it).

The fact that you mention mostly infatuations proves that, although you are probably very intelligent and accomplished, you are not sufficiently emotionally developed. I'm not insulting you - a lot of very intelligent people are because it's harder for us to find compatible partners. I am almost 25 and I think it's only during the past year that I have reached a normal emotional development (while many average people were at this stage when I was 20). The good thing is that you will learn faster than someone with an average intelligence because you are more analytical and can make better sense of what is going on and better choices in the future.

Another thing I noticed with intelligent people is that we are more prone to a courtly-love, Petrarchan type of attitude towards love, which limits the experience of real emotional connections. We turn inwards and long and obsess and never do anything about it. This is when it becomes disruptive. Once you start acting on it, it becomes less alien, less scary, you start seeing the benefits, you grow, you become more ready to move on to the real love stage.

All this makes us more complex than robots, although maybe less efficient at tasks-at-hand. Even so, we experience more facets of the world than a robot could. So why limit yourself?

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serishema
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Icon 1 posted November 15, 2005 01:50      Profile for serishema     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wow. A lot of discussion this has turned into just from some bitter ramblings when i was in a bad mood.

quote:
Originally posted by Black_Pearls_and_Lace:

My impression from reading the initial post is that you have constructed an image of yourself as an utilitarian machine, geared towards production and trying to cut maintenance costs short.

That'd be right, at least some of the time. It's really a question of which came first. I wasn't always like this.

Me two years ago; I saw infatution as harmless fun, i'd chat up whoever it was who caught my eye, make jokes with them, if they weren't interested in me i'd turn it around some how to say well you're not my type anyway. When i was first year uni I got the nick name "every girl" because i'd ask girls out without stressing over whether they were that way or not.

Then everything changed. The usual pattern happened once more but this time I was left completely dead inside. That was the "Evil girl in my CS class" I speak of. That was a year and a half ago, but nothings changed. She's not really evil, just straight and for some reason that time I lost the plot. I'd probably had 100s of harmless crushes on straight girls. What made this any different? But it was and i still don't understand what happened to me.

That machine image is the autopilot that took over after "I" couldn't go to class anymore because I couldn't stand the sight of her and didn't do anything except cry and listen to trashy music which is probably actually normal, just i'd never done that before.

Then i got diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome.
Supposedly i'm stuck with the emotional maturity of like a 14 year old and will be stuck that way forever.
Then i'm like this is why whatever I do sooner or later everyone hates me and i gotta start again. It's hard to stay optimistic about something when you know you're bound to failure by your own brain chemestry, so I attempted suicide. I didn't need to bother cos really, i'm already dead.

quote:
Originally posted by YaYawoman:
Hey girl. The bitterness I can understand but that road leads only to an empty dead end. Please trust me on that.

It is hard,but try to let go of your bitterness and fear and let other people get to know and enjoy you.


Is there even a way back? The fear is right i've been avoiding people for so long because somehow i just know the same thing will happen again and again. But really if i keep going this way i'm already dead so it's not like i've got anything to lose, maybe i'll find out they were wrong and i'm not bound to failure after all.

quote:
Originally posted by FireSnake:
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
serish == U? U hasn't posted for a dogs age, but he posted a lot of the same kind of thing.

I don't think it's U. He's not the type to come around under a new name. I also see that he's been here in the recent visitors list sometimes.

Plus, I thought serishema was a girl.

Nope, who is this U you speak of?
and yes i'm a girl.

I don't know sometimes I think i'm crazy and need help or something, but what can they do?

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ubergeekprincess
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Icon 1 posted November 15, 2005 02:23      Profile for ubergeekprincess     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have to say, I agree. I don't believe the feeling that people refer to as romantic love exists. I believe you can love your family and friends, and I believe thats the same feeling people have for their significant others...just with a dose of lust added to it. Maybe a cynical way of looking at it...but I've yet to have someone prove otherwise to me.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted November 15, 2005 02:38      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Emotional maturity does not mean to me that you are in control of your emotions. I am 55 years old and quite humiliatingly, I find that I am still absurdly susceptible to wonderful women, and my libido still tries to lead me into trouble, even though I have been faithful to my wife these last 23 years. Harmless flirting is a good safety valve for me. However what it does mean is that you understand more what is happening to you, and perhaps do not invest it with quite as much importance or urgency, and you seem to be doing just fine there Sereshima, so I really do not think that you are quite as stuck as you fear.

I remember asking my grandmother how old she felt inside, and immediately she said 17 or perhaps 18 at top. She was then actually 83 years old.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Icon 1 posted November 15, 2005 03:37      Profile for Platinum     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I wonder if infatuation is just an indication of suitable raw material that you could forge into a a lasting relationship (with a bit of patience, time, etc).

I mean, when we're attracted to someone there's usually something there indicating some sort of compatability - better to try to build a relationship on that that nothing at all. And for those who can well do without relationships, or 'love' - "No man is an island". Close social and emotional ties to other members of the human race is 'love' - you don't have to sleep with 'em...

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Blondes have more fun - and it's not just to make up for the lack of intelk... intlle...intellet..um.. that brain thingy you do??!!

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted November 15, 2005 10:09      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by serishema:

Then i got diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome.
Supposedly i'm stuck with the emotional maturity of like a 14 year old and will be stuck that way forever.
Then i'm like this is why whatever I do sooner or later everyone hates me and i gotta start again. It's hard to stay optimistic about something when you know you're bound to failure by your own brain chemestry, so I attempted suicide. I didn't need to bother cos really, i'm already dead.

From what I understand regarding Asperger's, it's very difficult to deal with, but you aren't necessarily "bound to failure."

Take this article, for example:
quote:
Many of the weaknesses can be remediated with specific types of therapy aimed at teaching social and pragmatic skills. Anxiety leading to significant rigidity can be also treated medically. Although it is harder, adults with Asperger's can have relationships, families, happy and productive lives.
It sounds like depression has left you pretty pessimistic. If you aren't already getting treatment for that, you might need to look into it.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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skylar
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Icon 1 posted November 15, 2005 13:27      Profile for skylar     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quoting Calli:
Sky you are much too bright, and much to sweet to believe what you have posted here. At bottom you have to have faith in love, because the alternative is just so sterile. You have to leave yourself open to life love and adventure, or you will just die of boredom, and then suffer regret.
You make a very good point. My logical mind tells me that the pursuit of love, and all forms of infatuation are problematic and ultimately pointless. But, yes, sterility is even worse. Perhaps I just keep punishing myself to keep it interesting [Wink] . It might make life a little 'safer' to convince myself that love is pointless, but I guess I can't crush the idealist in myself who secretly thinks that the impossible might happen someday.

Perhaps you might try to not give quite so much of yourself, when you fall next time.
Unfortunately, I'm all all-or-nothing type of gal. I think this is a problem a lot of geekily minded people have. They are so worried about the potential relationships that when they are actually with someone, they invest far too much into it, and the world ends if something goes wrong.

And remember, if anyone does treat you badly, just tell and I'll see what I can arrange! [evil]
[Big Grin] ... you shouldn't have said that. Expect a van to drop off a bunch of grumpy looking ex-bfs and crushes on your doorstep tomorrow morning [Wink]

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Black_Pearls_and_Lace
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Icon 1 posted November 15, 2005 18:50      Profile for Black_Pearls_and_Lace     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hmmm, Asperger's might actually justify why you see yourself as a machine. You're also more susceptible to failure since you have fewer people to choose from, which doesn't help the morale either.

I too would advise you to seek some form of treatment. You are young and intelligent, and I think these two work in your favor: you are not yet solidified in your ways as a 50-year old may be and you can learn how to rationalize feelings as beneficial. Perhaps some kind of therapy aimed at social development would be a good start. I'm far too ignorant to give any specific advice, but you could do some research and see what would work for you.

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musicbunnydancing
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Icon 1 posted November 15, 2005 23:38      Profile for musicbunnydancing     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by serishema:
You might call me bitter for saying this, but I think romantic infatuation or whatever you want to call it (some people call it love, but I reserve that word for other usage), is a pretty pointless thing.

It doesn't really make much sense to be a victim of some unknown algorithm that selects a particular person for you to focus inordinate amounts of your attention on, even when this is clearly counterproductive.

I'm happy on my own doing my own thing until I enivitably get infatuated with someone which disrupts my nice little routine. I have yet to see an instance where this doesn't end up having negative utility value.

I've thought romantic infatuation should simply be genetically engineered out of the human species. I'd be up for that.

It's not a game I can play, even when someone returns my supposed feelings (which i really view as an error in my program it's not in my power to correct) I just leave a trail of destruction because envitably I realise i'm all happy for no reason and it all wears off. Completely irational behaviour on their part usually follows. I think crazy bastard/bitch (as the case may be) and get out of there.

Does anyone else feel this way?
Does anyone else wish this thing people call love would just go away?

What strategies of avoidance do you use?
Over time i've managed to learn to predict the type of people i'm likely to be attracted to and take pre-emptive action (eg changing lab streams so as not to be around said person before infatuation can develop).

How can you be bitter about amour at 21 years of age? Speaking for myself at 20 I'm very much enjoying the life of amour.
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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted November 16, 2005 02:31      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Therapy, medication, treatment options, check, check, and check. I know you are doing everything you can to follow up on all those good suggestions. At least I hope you are.

Obviously, I am not qualified to offer any clinical advice. I do have some suggestions for average everyday stuff, however. ( I apologize for not posting back sooner).

There is always a way back. Maybe you need to work on re-defining for yourself what is success,what is meaningful, what it is you need to function.

Start small. Make small overtures to people. I'm talking field trips to the mall to engage sales people in eyecontact and conversation, practicing small talk w/your teachers, just nodding as you walk past people on the way to your class. Slowly re-connect with people in a superficial controlled way and try from there.

Always try. Not trying is one of the few things I classify as a sin. I hope this was even atiny bit helpful. Sometimes just knowing someone is listening is helpful, no matter what they say.

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fs

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Icon 1 posted November 16, 2005 19:08      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by serishema:
Nope, who is this U you speak of?
and yes i'm a girl.

U is short for Uilleann. He used to post here, some of which were on similar topics to your initial one, and where he expressed a similar viewpoint. IIRC, he was also diagnosed with Asperger's. He stopped posting a while back, I think mostly because he was looking for more directed conversations about technology than we tend to engage in around here.

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted November 21, 2005 08:49      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Originally posted by skylar:
I blame you for making me so bitter.

I do have that effect on women.

Lol, j/k, GM. I blame the government. If in doubt, always blame the government [Wink] .

Of course, because it's typically Government's fault. In this case I blame someone else...

But what if the pain outweighs any pleasure that you may have felt?

Is this REALLY ever the case. Where even in the darkest moments, we can still grasp on to the pale light of happy memories... I mean, there has to be a moment that you were happy enough to make all the crap worth it...

In that case, isn't the whole thing just an exercise in pointlessness?

Depends on what the point is... If it is your sole point in life to make millions of dollars, or make/fix/invent as much technology as you can... Yes, love would seem pointless. If your point in life was to live; then, love is not pointless, in fact it'd be paramount.

Quoting Support... Err Fire ... what ever she goes by today...
I don't think it's U.
I didn't either. It just sounded a lot like U's point of veiw in regards to love.

He's not the type to come around under a new name.

No, he isn't, except that half the people on this page are same person, remember. [Wink]

Plus, I thought serishema was a girl.
It's the internet, can you really be sure? [Razz]

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted November 21, 2005 08:56      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Quoting Skylar
It might make life a little 'safer' to convince myself that love is pointless, but I guess I can't crush the idealist in myself who secretly thinks that the impossible might happen someday.

Who says it's impossible... But if you think it is, then you are making it impossible.

Unfortunately, I'm all all-or-nothing type of gal. I think this is a problem a lot of geekily minded people have. They are so worried about the potential relationships that when they are actually with someone, they invest far too much into it, and the world ends if something goes wrong.

The first few times, it is the end of the world. As time goes on, you realize you aren't as fragile as you thoughtm and you begin to build a thicker skin.

... you shouldn't have said that. Expect a van to drop off a bunch of grumpy looking ex-bfs and crushes on your doorstep tomorrow morning [Wink]

To all -
If I suddenly dissapear, you know what happened. Please inform my next of kin.

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serishema
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Icon 1 posted November 30, 2005 04:43      Profile for serishema     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanks GM you made me laugh :-)

oh dear, I can't believe I posted this. This is just sad I shouldn't be allowed an internet connection when my favorite geek boi at the time gets a girlfriend.

If I wasn't already getting it, i'd say i needed help.

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted November 30, 2005 09:17      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I made a small mistake, because I had too many tabs open. Ignore the previous version of this post.

Thanks GM you made me laugh :-)
Welcome. But seriously, if I disappear...

oh dear, I can't believe I posted this.
This post or the thread starter? I imagine you mean the thread starter.

This is just sad I shouldn't be allowed an internet connection when my favorite geek boi at the time gets a girlfriend.
Well, that would explian the bitterness in the thread starter. How much time do you spend with this boi geek and his gf? If it's a lot, then just get in the habit of imagining the gf being destroyed in the most vicsious ways possible... It helps, really. [evil]

If I wasn't already getting it, i'd say i needed help.

*sings* "Can I get a little help with my key...."

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skylar
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Icon 1 posted November 30, 2005 14:35      Profile for skylar     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
But seriously, if I disappear...

...then everyone will pretend they never saw or heard a thing (because I will bribe them with cake! Yes, cake!). [evil]

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted November 30, 2005 16:05      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by skylar:
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
But seriously, if I disappear...

...then everyone will pretend they never saw or heard a thing (because I will bribe them with cake! Yes, cake!). [evil]
Cake you baked? Without burning down the kitchen? Now, I know this isn't reality we're talking about... [Wink]

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skylar
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Icon 1 posted November 30, 2005 16:21      Profile for skylar     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
Cake you baked? Without burning down the kitchen? Now, I know this isn't reality we're talking about... [Wink]

Hey... I cook now! And no, the sky hasn't fallen, nor has hell frozen over. Welcome to the new reality, and expect to mysteriously disappear any day now [Big Grin]

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"arm, aber geeky"

Posts: 1994 | From: Deutschland | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged


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