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Author Topic: How must we look ex-US?
The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted October 09, 2013 19:10      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorWho:
Yes, but here is the rub. He is friends with park rangers who told him that it is costing way more to keep visitors out than it would be to let them in and operate as normal. If the purpose of a government shutdown is to stop spending money then they are doing a piss poor job of it aren't they?

It's not about saving money, it's about not spending money they're legally not allowed to spend.
They're not allowed to spend money keeping the park open.
They are allowed to spend money securing closed facilities.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted October 09, 2013 21:46      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorWho:
Yes, but here is the rub. He is friends with park rangers who told him that it is costing way more to keep visitors out than it would be to let them in and operate as normal. If the purpose of a government shutdown is to stop spending money then they are doing a piss poor job of it aren't they?

It's not about saving money, it's about not spending money they're legally not allowed to spend.
They're not allowed to spend money keeping the park open.
They are allowed to spend money securing closed facilities.

...And no one else here thinks that is idiotic? Seriously, it's no wonder we are $17 trillion in debt! We need to put some common sense back into government!

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 09, 2013 22:09      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Politicians can we hunt them, and what is the bag limit?

Then how to dress them out and cooking instructions?

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted October 10, 2013 00:27      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
DoctorWho - of course it's idiotic, but so is shutting down the gov't over a law that legally passed in both chambers of Congress and was signed into law by the executive and reaffirmed by the judicial. Also, so is curtailing food stamps during an economic downturn!

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted October 10, 2013 15:39      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What is more idiotic is that this is the first time a government shutdown is being purposely targeted to annoy and economically hurt the American citizens. They have never done this through any of the other shutdowns that have happened. It is as if our government is a two year old having a tantrum and it's disgraceful.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 10, 2013 17:40      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
SHUTDOWN IS SHUTDOWN

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted October 10, 2013 21:54      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yeah,

Just imagine how great it will be once we are all on government healthcare and then the government shuts down again. "What you want to visit your doctor? Sorry the government is shutdown for non-essentials."

Remember "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have."

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted October 10, 2013 22:40      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Um...not even close to true. Medicare is up and running right now, and so are the exchanges. Furthermore, once the plans set up through the latter are in place, they will be /privately/ administered. If you go to your doctor, Aetna is processing the bill, not Uncle Sam. The trick is that the exchanges exist as a bridge to an affordable marketplace for insurance that was previously out of reach to many.

The only reason I'm in the awful job I'm in is for health insurance - I could have walked if I thought I wouldn't go without it (and I don't have any medical conditions, but I'm aware of the fact that 'stuff happens' and insurance is important). (And some of my colleagues would have been tempted to do the same, but for some of them, it wasn't just themselves, but their families.)

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted October 10, 2013 22:47      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Um it's not even close to affordable for many people. My insurance would go up more than 4 times what I pay if I were to be on it and I would not even get the coverage I have now and it's not even a premium plan.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted October 11, 2013 04:18      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorWho:
quote:
It's not about saving money, it's about not spending money they're legally not allowed to spend.
They're not allowed to spend money keeping the park open.
They are allowed to spend money securing closed facilities.

...And no one else here thinks that is idiotic? Seriously, it's no wonder we are $17 trillion in debt! We need to put some common sense back into government!
What's idiotic is the politicians who forced the government shutdown thinking "shutdown" means "don't shutdown anything I like".


They're sending teachers home, they're sending helpers for the blind home, they're sending chemical plant safety inspectors home, they're letting food-stamp families go hungry, and then they whine like little bitches when the president doesn't break the law to keep a war memorial open?
Puh-lease!

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted October 11, 2013 11:39      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorWho:
quote:
It's not about saving money, it's about not spending money they're legally not allowed to spend.
They're not allowed to spend money keeping the park open.
They are allowed to spend money securing closed facilities.

...And no one else here thinks that is idiotic? Seriously, it's no wonder we are $17 trillion in debt! We need to put some common sense back into government!
What's idiotic is the politicians who forced the government shutdown thinking "shutdown" means "don't shutdown anything I like".


They're sending teachers home, they're sending helpers for the blind home, they're sending chemical plant safety inspectors home, they're letting food-stamp families go hungry, and then they whine like little bitches when the president doesn't break the law to keep a war memorial open?
Puh-lease!

I agree that these are concerns, however the same principle applies with the war memorial as it does with Florida Bay and Mount Rushmore. If it costs the government more to close it than to leave it open, then it's idiotic to close it. Furthermore it's a slap in the face to all Americans when a bunch of people who are in this country illegally can have a rally within spitting distance of the memorial but Americans are barred from visiting an outdoor open air memorial that costs the government nothing to keep up.

Anyhow my uncle in Florida was going to move his boats because he has a friend who has a charter fishing business in Alabama. He was going to go there and get his overflow so he could keep afloat financially. But because the bay is closed he is not even allowed to have his boats leave the dock. He would have to pay for them to be put on trucks and be escorted over land to their destination which is extremely expensive comparatively speaking.

The whole thing is a mess. The affordable healthcare act is nothing but a cluster****. For the supreme court to say it was constitutional, they had to say that the fines associated with it were really taxes and now that it has passed they are calling them fines again. The president on his own has amended the law to exempt groups which is not only patently unfair but also unconstitutional for the president to do. The website which cost the government $634 million is not even good enough to be called a beta site. It's obvious that the whole debacle is disorganized and unprofessional.

And don't get me wrong. I do not just blame the democrats for this mess. Blame lies at the feet of 546 people.
435 house members
100 senators
9 supreme court justices
1 president
1 vice president

And blame lies at the feet of every one of them who preceded them that started us on this slippery slope.

Finally blame lies at the feet of the average American citizen who voted for these people. They are too busy looking at their smart phones and are more worried about what's happening with Hollywood than they are with the personal freedoms of the average citizen.

One more thing. For everyone who says "the affordable healthcare act is now the law of the land, stop trying to change it" I say, the rights guaranteed to American citizens by the Bill of Rights have been the law of the land for over 200 years. Stop trying to change them.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 11, 2013 11:52      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dr. Who, When you get angry enough, start changing things. Then you will find out how entrenched big business is in running this government. They have bought CONGRESS AND THE SUPREME COURT. On the state level gerrymandering has just about taken out the voting rights act.

Big Money Talks and the rest do not have enough to speak up. Try getting an appointment with your rep. but mister money bags can walk in unannounced.

Your and my wallets are not heavy enough.

If you try to use your 2nd Amendment rights and form your own militia watch how fast you show up on the NSA radar.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted October 11, 2013 21:09      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
Dr. Who, When you get angry enough, start changing things. Then you will find out how entrenched big business is in running this government. They have bought CONGRESS AND THE SUPREME COURT. On the state level gerrymandering has just about taken out the voting rights act.

Big Money Talks and the rest do not have enough to speak up. Try getting an appointment with your rep. but mister money bags can walk in unannounced.


Your and my wallets are not heavy enough.

If you try to use your 2nd Amendment rights and form your own militia watch how fast you show up on the NSA radar.

I must say that I agree with everything you just said.

Here is a bit of Jay Leno for your amusement. Too bad NBC doesn't have the guts to keep him on the air. Maybe another network that has a backbone will pick him up.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 11, 2013 21:39      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have watched this Country being sold to the highest bidder.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted October 11, 2013 21:59      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorWho:
If it costs the government more to close it than to leave it open, then it's idiotic to close it.

Your basic mistake is thinking this is aimed at saving money. Nothing could be further from the truth.

This shutdown won't 'save' taxpayers money, it will cost taxpayers a fortune.

All of the currently furloughed workers will get back-paid once this mess is resolved, not one penny of salary is being 'saved' by the shutdown. But there are costs, security for shutdown facilities, loss of revenue from closed national parks, etc.

Idiotic or not, in the current situation, there are some things the government is allowed to spend money on, and others they're not.

Obama isn't allowed to take $1 of approved spending and shift it over to a 'better' unapproved use. That's the law.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted October 11, 2013 22:25      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorWho:
If it costs the government more to close it than to leave it open, then it's idiotic to close it.

Your basic mistake is thinking this is aimed at saving money. Nothing could be further from the truth.

This shutdown won't 'save' taxpayers money, it will cost taxpayers a fortune.

All of the currently furloughed workers will get back-paid once this mess is resolved, not one penny of salary is being 'saved' by the shutdown. But there are costs, security for shutdown facilities, loss of revenue from closed national parks, etc.

Idiotic or not, in the current situation, there are some things the government is allowed to spend money on, and others they're not.

Obama isn't allowed to take $1 of approved spending and shift it over to a 'better' unapproved use. That's the law.

Don't make me laugh that hard or I'll need an oxygen tank. Both sides of the isle do "unapproved" things in direct violation of law all the time. Obama included. I just gave an example in a previous post about how he violated the constitution by taking it upon himself to amend the affordable healthcare act. Amending any law is only supposed to be done by the Congress and then signed by the President. He is picking and choosing what he wants to enforce and what he wants to ignore. I lived with being bullied on an almost constant basis from age 5 till I was 16. I know vindictiveness when I see it!

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted October 14, 2013 16:21      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorWho:
If it costs the government more to close it than to leave it open, then it's idiotic to close it.

Your basic mistake is thinking this is aimed at saving money. Nothing could be further from the truth.


exactly, the point of the shutdown is to obey the law, and the law is goverment run facilities are closed unless it is nessasary.

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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted October 14, 2013 21:09      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Speaking of which, for all the bellyaching, it's now the case that NY state and a few other states will pay to run key parks such as the Statue of Liberty and Mount Rushmore.

And it's easy to carp about a park, but a /lot/ of useful and important services have been stopped and aren't as visible, causing a lot of folks to prattle on about 'the shutdown isn't so bad.' So can you imagine why there might be some appeal in letting parts of the shutdown be seen, to keep pressure on Congress-critters to frigging...do their job?

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 14, 2013 21:18      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You really want to mess with congress have them shut down EFTs and/or ATMs

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted October 15, 2013 00:28      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
You really want to mess with congress have them shut down EFTs and/or ATMs

Um...ATMs are operated by the private sector. I'm pretty sure the FDIC is self funded by member fees, and probably so is the ACH.

Shutting down Social Security, OTOH...that would get things on track so fast, the vote counting circuitry would catch fire...

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted October 15, 2013 00:41      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorWho:
If it costs the government more to close it than to leave it open, then it's idiotic to close it.

Your basic mistake is thinking this is aimed at saving money. Nothing could be further from the truth.


exactly, the point of the shutdown is to obey the law, and the law is goverment run facilities are closed unless it is nessasary.
And as I said, politicians pick and choose which laws they want to enforce.
Clinton kept them open. If we wanted to prevent government shutdowns, we would need a law that says the members of Congress and the President and Vice President do not get a paycheck or back pay during a government shutdown. Want to get them to promote a healthy economy, make their income inversely proportionate to the percentage of people on welfare. Also make all deals where they get money other than their salary while they hold public office illegal. No moonlighting while you work for the citizens, it's a conflict of interest. Penalties could include fines, imprisonment and loss of government pension depending upon the severity of the crime.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 17, 2013 08:05      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Two+ weeks of speachs and for what, All this BS small businesses bankrupt, for what. this was like an internal "civil war". Government against the people. We sure have the government we deserve.

WTF and show me in the codes of the USA this D#(& Hastert Rule.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted October 17, 2013 10:59      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Saw this last night. For those who might think I am biased one way or the other, I just want you to note that I see the BS on both sides of the fence and the odor is equally repugnant.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 17, 2013 11:09      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This is blatant "CYA"


Vote them all out.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted October 17, 2013 11:34      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I wish voting them all out would solve the problem. Unfortunately, it doesn't take very long for the newly elected ones to become just as corrupt as the ones who have been in there.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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