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Author Topic: Stand your ground law
Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted April 13, 2012 15:54      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There is something that really bothers me about this law taht surprisingly the over-active 24h news media freak show hasn't dug into yet. Or at least I haven't heard them bring this particular point up.

Specifically, Not how the stand your ground law relates to Zimmerman's actions, but how it realtes to Martin's actions.

Zimmerman says he had the right to stand his ground. He was trying to protect his community after a string of break-ins. So, for the sake of argument about this law. Lets say Zimmerman has represented the accoutn of that night very accuratly. And that he was justified in the killing.

But, as a thought expirement, let's reverse thing. If Trayvon Martin had killed Zimmerman tht night in thier struggle. Would not the "stand your ground" law protect him as well? He had the right to be there. He had some guy stalking him, with a gun no less. He had a legitimate right to fear for his life. Those are the grounds to use deadly force in Florida. SO I come to the conclusion that Trayvon Martin would have had the right to kill George Zimmermann.


My point?

How can anyone write a law that makes it perfectly legal to kill someone over a misunderstanding. George Zimmerman didn't know Trayvon Martin had a right to be there and only had skittles with him. Trayvon Martin didn't know that George Zimmerman was just trying to stalk him he was just trying to stop a rash of burgleries.

This is why sane places have the law that you have to retreat if you can. So just in case it was a misunderstanding, You don't have a circumstance where both parties have teh right to kill each other.

Thanks for reading my rant.

disclaimer:

I do not know what happened that night, this was a theoretical exercise.

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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

Posts: 3079 | From: Switzerland | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted April 13, 2012 16:26      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ash, I too have many misgivings about this tragedy, however in many states a woman/vs man all she has to say is I had great fear.

I am sure that the jury will hear a ton of testimony, you and I will not get to hear all of that and wonder how did they come to that decision.

The sad part is a young man is dead.

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Posts: 5421 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted April 13, 2012 17:35      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ashitaka wrote:
How can anyone write a law that makes it perfectly legal to kill someone over a misunderstanding.

It's the same mentality that results in bills submitted to grant people the right to carry handguns in bars.

The same mentality that results in this:
[TN Rep. Curry Todd, who sponsored the bill,] was arrested while allegedly driving under the influence. He had a loaded handgun "in a holster stuffed between the driver seat and center console."

There are people who are self-centered and care only about their own right to do what they want with no regard for the rights of others. Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons too idiotic to go into, we tend to elect a lot of that type of person in this country and they shove through legislation like the stand-your-ground law.

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Posts: 6361 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted April 13, 2012 18:37      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GrumpySteen:


It's the same mentality that results in bills submitted to grant people the right to carry handguns in bars.

s/bars/public/

I'm from New York, and we just don't see the point in people walking around with guns. Why?

An argument I've heard from someone Down South about guns at home has to do with slow response time from the "PO-lice." Well...we pay taxes, and have a good number of police departments, offering a pretty decent response time.

I can /maybe/ get the 'gun at home' mentality about self-defense...but not in public. I realize the argument seems to be one of deterrence, but it allows situations to escalate way too easily, and as you [Steen] call to mind...alcohol surely can't help things. FFS, England has required bars to use shatterproof glasses to keep people from stabbing/slashing people in bar fights -- this is /way/ more dangerous.

After Martin was killed, curiosity got the better of me, and I did read up on what NY's laws are - ours is the so-called "Castle doctrine." I'm not 100% clear on the details, but I'm pretty sure you're only really clear to use deadly force if you believe you can't safely flee. However, that permission is granted only to your place of residence. The notion of "standing your ground" out in public is utterly absurd. Zimmerman was clearly on the offensive - the only 'defensive stance' was in his mind, fearing a situation that never would have come to pass if he obeyed the 911 operator and simply went on his merry way. He sickens me, and assuming he's found guilty of the charges now brought against him, I hope they give him the maximum sentence possible.

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

Posts: 9195 | From: Westchester County, New York | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted April 14, 2012 06:13      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dman, Amen. We live rural so even fire department response is slow, plus twenty minutes. We use a dog and a cat for our alarm system. We do have smoke and gas detectors, at least we could get out of the house, in case of fire. All the Sheriff or State Police are good for is giving you a report for the insurance company.

This link may help or make things worse.

YaHoo News

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Posts: 5421 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
CitizenX
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Icon 1 posted May 04, 2012 10:25      Profile for CitizenX   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
@ashitaka,

Your points are absolutely valid.

The people defending zimmermans actions are excusing the original actions that set up the situation in question.

Imagine someone is following your daughter and her friends. She chooses to confront the follower and that person feels threatened and shoots them all. How does the defending yourself right be transferred to the original aggressive person.

Posts: 1 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2012  |  IP: Logged
spungo
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Icon 1 posted May 04, 2012 10:50      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
All the Sheriff or State Police are good for is giving you a report for the insurance company.

Precisely. A few years ago when I still lived on Merseyside (UK), some youffs set fire to my piece-of-shit Nova. When the nice PO-lice came 'round they basically told me that they DO NOT EVEN investigate crimes like this -- there were far to many in the area on any one night. All they did was issue me a 'crime number' with which to make my insurance claim. The cops don't even pretend to fight such crimes any more -- they've given up on that, it simply wasn't working for them.

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