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Author Topic: Obesity is not a Moral Judgement!
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 22, 2010 03:47      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Not all Heart problems are caused by the Knife and Fork.

____ patent+ductus Usually newborns but some escape detection until later in life.

____ aortic arch defects, may not show up in life until a child reaches High School sports ie BasketBall

____ aneurysm, again may appear in totally healthy individuals, whom just passed their Flight Physical, good friend just had his Physical got home sat down never got up Bmi 23

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Tom- geeking around

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Icon 1 posted October 22, 2010 06:12      Profile for Tom- geeking around   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oooohhh dear...

I'd be pleased if I could add some of my input on this matter.
To give you an insight on my history and views, let me start off by saying I'm 6-foot something tall and weigh 150 pounds. Not obese by any stretch of the imagination. I also support the idea of Fat-Acceptance.

But my lifestyle sucks. I don't do any sports. I watch tv or sit in front of the computer a lot. My diet mostly sucks (unless my gf cooks) - it consists of processed foods and fastfood mostly. None of those are particularly rich in vitamins. All of them are rich in fat.

But my 260 pound 5-foot 2-inch girlfriend used to be fitter than me. She simply does more sports than I do. I'd realize when we take the stairs or go hiking. Oh, I forgot to mention: my gf is 17 years older than I am too.

What I am trying to say is:

Don't judge people just because they're fat. They've gone through hell in school because they were bullied - just because they were fat.

Being obese certainly DOES increase your chances of heart attacks, higher chance of having problems with your hip/knee joints - no point in denying that.
BUT bing fit and fat isn't a contradiction per se. It's about the lifestyle that makes the difference - not just your body weight.. Let alone your BMI.

But the most important part is: Big people can be great people too. Give them a chance. My best best relationship ever has been with a big woman.

People come in all colors and sizes - big and small.

So long!
Tom

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zesovietrussian
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Icon 1 posted October 22, 2010 07:46      Profile for zesovietrussian     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tom- geeking around:

Being obese certainly DOES increase your chances of heart attacks, higher chance of having problems with your hip/knee joints - no point in denying that.
BUT bing fit and fat isn't a contradiction per se. It's about the lifestyle that makes the difference - not just your body weight.. Let alone your BMI.

Tom

Thank you. That's what I (and the OP) were trying to say all along, yet we keep getting flamed by a certain Kate Harding admirer who's probably going to flame you as well now [Wink]
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yorik
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Icon 1 posted October 25, 2010 15:01      Profile for yorik     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tom- geeking around:

Being obese certainly DOES increase your chances of heart attacks, higher chance of having problems with your hip/knee joints - no point in denying that.
BUT bing fit and fat isn't a contradiction per se. It's about the lifestyle that makes the difference - not just your body weight.. Let alone your BMI.

I would argue for a subtle change to your post: being obese is ASSOCIATED with heart attacks, etc. I believe that obesity is part of a cluster of symptoms of a bigger problem, generally called Metabolic Syndrome. Address that and you address the heart attacks and obesity at the same time. And other diseases too.

BTW, did you ever see those Erectile Dysfunction ads on TV? "My doctor told me my blood pressure / cholesterol / diabetes could be causing my ED" Those issues are also part of the same cluster of symptoms associated with Metabolic Syndrome.

Just changing your diet will improve your overall health, but the problem of mobilizing the fat for reduction is a surprisingly non-intuitive process. Eat less-exercise more is an incredibly simplistic interpretation for a complex hormonally controlled, homeostatic system.

As an aside, I did the Atkins Diet under supervision of my physician. Triglycerides, cholesterol and blood pressure all dropped significantly while on the diet. Low-carb diets are pretty much the new standard of health nowadays for fighting Metabolic Syndrome. Some people just aren't up to speed on that fact yet. Atkins itself is somewhat passe, having been supplanted by what some call "Paleo"-style diets, but still low-carb.

And yes, I am morbidly obese (I need to lose a whole person to get back to college weight) and I've done a lot of research and self-experimentation. Obviously I'm still not an expert through experience yet. [Smile]

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted October 26, 2010 01:37      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
metabolic syndrome doesn't seem to be anything more than the observation that overweight people have alot of health problems. In other words, it is not the cause, (the unhealthy lifestyle is), it is the sum of observations and not a specific desease.

Also, it is great that Adkin's diet is working for you, but many studies have shown the effect is simply due to the calorie restricting nature of cutting carbs out of your diet. But I would only go on a diet that is well balanced (but still calorie restricting).

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted October 26, 2010 05:16      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Beside, Atkins's own diet didn't kept him thin. The Atkins diets messes up your metabolism, so the moment you get off of it, you're done.

Extra info: it's the organ-fat that it the most damning for the heart. The fat that attaches to the internal organs. The peripheral fat is not as bad. So one may seem thin but be at risk for heart attacks (because organ fat doesn't show on the outside), while another has a few too many curves, but not be at such risk. Everyone is different. And I have read a study (which is worth what a study can be worth) that for obese people to lose 10% of their weight, even if it doesn't take them out of obesity range, seriously prevents their risks of cardiac, diabetes and other obesity-associated diseases.

So, the only constant is: exercise. Well, a balanced diet doesn't hurt either. Keep your organs in good woking order, and suddenly your weight is not as much a problem. (I want to start playing DDR again!)

For your info; I am obese. BMI around 34. My breakfast is a slice of bread with peanut butter, and juice (real juice, no sugar added). Dinner is (on week days) low salt frozen meal, veggie juice and unsweetened apple+fruit sauce. Supper is whatever I have on hand, not always best, but with veggie juice, and that's where dessert kills me. Well, and when having snacks around the computer, it's hard not to eat them; but I usually have non-buttery pop-corn. I run up stairs almost everyday going at work, and I have ballroom dance classes once a week. I don't smoke, I very rarely drink, and never get drunk. So I may not be the best, but I am not a scare either. (And the moment I have a home, I will start the Wii Fit and DDR again, believe me! It's my downstairs neighbor who's preventing me from losing weight! [crazy] )

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Icon 1 posted October 26, 2010 11:32      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There have been some good points made all around, so rather than try to address everyone I'm just going to say what I have to say, all right?

Number one, dieting with weight-loss as your only goal isn't helpful, but changing your life to be more active and improve the foods you eat is--even if you don't lose weight. This shouldn't be earth-shattering news, but there are studies to back it up.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar06/health0306.htm

And whatever weight is lost during a diet tends to be temporary:

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0804748

Probably because your metabolism compensates:

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199503093321001

AND dieting itself it turns out might be harmful:

http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v34/n6/full/ijo201041a.html
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/54635.php

It turns out that weight might not even be the most useful tool for measuring health anyway:

http://www.physorg.com/news168538390.html

Not to mention that there are many other factors contributing to population obesity statistics. For one, there is a stigma associated with being fat that means your life is more stressed in general, and even medical professionals treat you differently:

http://xnet.kp.org/permanentejournal/sum03/stigma.html

Obesity also correlates pretty well with poverty, which means you have to take into account how much good food and activity is even available to people. You have urban food deserts, lots of single-parent households where time available is much more of a factor than for two-parent, middle class households. You have underfunded schools where PE classes get cut and neighborhoods that may not have parks or other green spaces or safe areas to move around in (and I don't even necessarily mean crime--it could just be an area with lots of busy streets). You have people with retail jobs or other unskilled jobs where they don't have a refrigerator available to them at work even if they wanted to bring a bag lunch and only half an hour off to eat something in the middle of the shift.

And then there's our entire food system which is set up to subsidize empty calories with high-fructose corn syrup instead of fresh, unprocessed foods.

This is so much more complicated than just "put down the Twinkies" people.

Edit: Also, What does underweight/normal/overweight/obese actually look like?

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted October 26, 2010 16:33      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
that last picture link is pretty interesting.

I had alot of trouble gessing if they were normal , overweight or obese. ( I easily guesed the underweights)

What surprised me is the Obese pictures. some , in my my, perfectly normal looking girls were obese (ca 30) and others that looked fat, had the same BMI.

I really wonder if they have they have the real BMI's from the times thi photos were taken.

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Icon 1 posted October 26, 2010 17:10      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm not surprised at the variation. Steen showed a good example earlier of how BMI by itself tells you very little. Yet that is how whether someone is overweight or not is determined.
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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted October 26, 2010 17:16      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ashitaka wrote:
What surprised me is the Obese pictures. some , in my my, perfectly normal looking girls were obese (ca 30) and others that looked fat, had the same BMI.

If you go back and look at the ones that looked perfectly normal but were classed as obese, I would bet that you'll find every one of them has big boobs. BMI doesn't take cup size into account, so well-endowed women are generally classified as overweight. If BMI was accurate, giving a skinny woman breast implants would increase her chances of developing heart disease and high blood pressure [crazy]

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Icon 1 posted October 26, 2010 17:27      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I do have to take some issue with that. For someone my height (5'4") the difference between a BMI of 25 (borderline "overweight") and 30 (borderline "obese") is about 30 pounds. For some people with G cups and large band sizes they might have 30 pounds in their breasts alone, but probably not any of the women in those photos who are borderline. In other words, even if you don't think they look obese, they would still be overweight, not "normal".

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Mr. Geek 2U
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Icon 1 posted October 26, 2010 17:46      Profile for Mr. Geek 2U     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Eh, not trying to be mean (it just comes naturally?), so I'm sorry if I hurt you. I get defensive when people "concern troll" fat people since I am one and I know that there's a whole lot more that goes into it than what the media would have you believe.

I really like Kate Harding's breakdown of things here.

Well, well, well Mrs. Rhonwyyn. Well, well, indeedy! and in needy!

Can we say co-depends-dant? Sure we can! Wet your pannies and blame others for your acts I and II and III!

You did not hurt me! No sireee Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice. No!

An you know why? You know, you know you know?

It is because I own my feelings and you don't! Tra-la! I have the yes and deedy right here in my heart. That is a fact Jack and Jill!

I suh-speck and ex-peck you do not own your fweewings. No offence! You may be thik of flesh, but you are thin of skin!

Your widdle fweelings are owned by mean people. And by Kate of Hate! Tonya's sister! Hit my knee with a stik! Ha! Ha!

You mite as well sold your fweewings for a pocket full of mumbles, such are promises. You here only what you want to here!

And you are MEAN! Just like you say. It comes Mr. Naturally!

Now I tell you what. I have a scale. It does not measure fat, no-siree! No-mammary! It measures peoples hearts. Fat is so low it does not matter. But MEAN? Boy Howdy! Mean is diff- R- Rent. MEAN IS #1 BAD! But smells like #2! Ha! Ha! Ha! Funny joke.

I saw wisdom on a old Toy-iota car. Save the Wails! Can't hug a chile with New-Kew-Lur arms! Co-X-ist! and one about mean people!

Do you know that? Do you? Do you know what MEAN peoples do?

It does not say fat peoples, or skin peoples, or all sorta colors peoples or diff-R-Rent God peoples or No Gods peoples. No-per!

It says MEAN PEOPLE SUCK! That might be OK if you have a snake bite and for poison. But udder-wise SUCK is bad!

Soorrrr-eeeeeee! No offence!

Now I see your pic-shure and you are pretty! Yes! And you are young! Yes! And you have a fine husband who loves you! Yes!

That is a lot! That is lots and lots more than many people! Yes!

But with all that grace about you? You choose to be MEAN.

Very Sad!

I mite say Lite-N Up! But you mite say that is about Fat People.

So I won't. You know what I say? You know, you know?

Have a great day!

Mr. Geek 2U!

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted October 26, 2010 18:33      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mr. Geek 2U:
Stop trolling before you get your dumb ass banned again.

Yeah... I know exactly who you are.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted October 26, 2010 18:34      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Whups. Double post.

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Mr. Geek 2U
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Icon 1 posted October 26, 2010 18:42      Profile for Mr. Geek 2U     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mr. Steen!

Hello!

I do not know why you say that! No!

I have not been mean to you! Do not flame me please!

And please do not use potty words!

I think your mind is playing tricks on you!

Have a great day!

Mr. Geek 2U!

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 27, 2010 05:04      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ There are several people he could be, but I think that unless said person got a new comp. and new ISP. Snaggy would know if it was some one he had banned, so whom are you thinking.

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted October 27, 2010 07:41      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GrumpySteen:
Ashitaka wrote:
What surprised me is the Obese pictures. some , in my my, perfectly normal looking girls were obese (ca 30) and others that looked fat, had the same BMI.

If you go back and look at the ones that looked perfectly normal but were classed as obese, I would bet that you'll find every one of them has big boobs. BMI doesn't take cup size into account, so well-endowed women are generally classified as overweight. If BMI was accurate, giving a skinny woman breast implants would increase her chances of developing heart disease and high blood pressure [crazy]

I'll add another possibility for the difference: BMI doesn't make a difference between fat-weight and muscle-weight. Some of the "normal-looking but overweight/obese BMI" gals (and guys, too!) might be active, and have some lean muscles hidden under a layer of fat. Or even just lean muscles, for the very muscle-heavy. (I would guess many body-builders rank as obese.)

So that girl who is obese but just climbed a mountain? She probably has some solid legs!

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 27, 2010 08:46      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Stereo, you bring up a very valid point. I ran track in high school & college, I also rode sprint bikes. From the hips down those obese testing machines (really just an ohmmeter) show little or no fat. Get above the Iliac crests and now we are talking serious (Dunlops), does any one need a set of duals.

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted October 27, 2010 09:27      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yeah -- and BMI doesn't take into account other parts of my body that might be very large... like me ears!

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yorik
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Icon 1 posted October 27, 2010 11:20      Profile for yorik     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
[QB] Beside, Atkins's own diet didn't kept him thin.

What are you trying to point out by that link? It says nothing about him being overweight. There was a brief consternation about him being overweight at death, but he died of complications from a head injury, with the supposed weight being a result of organ failure and fluid retention.

quote:
The Atkins diets messes up your metabolism, so the moment you get off of it, you're done.
There is no evidence of that at all. It's a common myth. BTW, which version of the Atkins diet are you referring to? It has three phases, and the one that is most criticized is the most temporary of the phases, lasting no more than 2 weeks. The third phase is a lifestyle phase that you never need to stop. Most people who criticize the diet, including dieticians, have never even read the book.

I suggest checking out www.bodyrecomposition.com for lots of science based articles on the subject of training or diet. Especially look for the series on "Training the Obese." Make no mistake though; this site is for people who are serious about changing their body, include professional figure athletes. (Which are different from weightlifters.) Who knows more about nutrition and exercise: a pudgey dietician or somebody who gets on stage to compete professionally for their good looks? I'll go with the competitor.

Another site worth looking at is called www.precisionnutrition.com, which is more for the every man.

quote:
My breakfast is a slice of bread with peanut butter, and juice (real juice, no sugar added).Dinner is (on week days) low salt frozen meal, veggie juice and unsweetened apple+fruit sauce.
Try ditching the bread altogether. And don't eat carbs with fats like peanut butter. When provided with both carbs and fats at the same time, you can expect the carbs to be processed first, the fats (with higher calories) tend to go directly to storage.

As for juice, you might think you're drinking good stuff, but all that fruit juice is separated from the fiber, which would normally help to moderate absorbtion. It's still mostly sugar, even if it comes from a fruit. Think about this: how many fruits would you need to eat to get that much juice? If I squeeze an orange, I'll get an ounce or two or juice, but no flesh. That glass of juice is the sugar equivalent of 4-8 oranges without the fiber based flesh.

And where's your protein? It's not evil. Eat more of it, even if you get it from beans like a vegan.

Of course, I don't expect you to listen to anybody but whom you want to, least of all me, since I'm still working on my own weight.

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yorik
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Icon 1 posted October 27, 2010 11:29      Profile for yorik     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
metabolic syndrome doesn't seem to be anything more than the observation that overweight people have alot of health problems.

Actually metabolic syndrome is shorthand for "insulin resistance with hyperinsulinemia;" an adaptation of the body to long term higher than normal blood sugar. (Yes, a lifestyle / diet issue, perhaps hereditary also.) Since the cells resist absorbing glucose after being inundated with it for so long, the result is an excessive expression of insulin by the pancreas to bring blood sugar down. Insulin triggers fat storage also, resulting in obesity. High blood sugar also forms too many Advanced Glycation End-products (like malformed proteins) which wreak havoc in the body, hence all the other ills.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted October 27, 2010 11:45      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by yorik:
It has three phases, and the one that is most criticized is the most temporary of the phases, lasting no more than 2 weeks.

Interestingly enough, 2 weeks in was usually when I saw people who were calling 911 because they were on the Atkins diet and their hearts were doing weird things to them. All of these people had health issues that have since been tagged as metabolic syndrome (you didn't hear that term much in the early 2000's), all of them were making drastic dietary changes, none of them had bothered to consult a doctor.

You yourself have stated you're dieting with a doctor watching, so, while I reserve judgment on the Atkins diet, I applaud your being sensible about it.
[thumbsup]

As for me, I hang out near the overweight cut-off for the BMI. Some of it's flab, some of it's muscle. My body seems to have a set weight point it likes to be and if I go under or over I'm cold all the time so mostly I just try to stay warm. Which reminds me. I've been cold all the time lately. I should probably get on a scale and figure out which direction I need to go.

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted October 27, 2010 13:43      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by yorik:
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
Beside, Atkins's own diet didn't kept him thin.

What are you trying to point out by that link?
I exactly selected this link because the article seemed objective by presenting both points of view. And it ends saying that even if the "obese" ranking was from water retention while in hospital, he still had to be overweight before his fall. And that was my point: his diet didn't kept him thin.

I'll be skipping a lot of things that are not really worth discussing because I am not a dietetician nor a doctor, and neither are you (I believe), and one can have a study prove just about any point if the subjects are carefully selected. No need to start a link war.

quote:
Originally posted by yorik:
And where's your protein? It's not evil. Eat more of it, even if you get it from beans like a vegan.

Err... that's what the peanut butter is. (I used to take dark chocolate spread before, but stopped because I had the bad habit of dipping back into the pot. I lost about 200 grams a week for 4 or 5 weeks, then my metabolism adjusted.) Other than that I like my proteins from fish/seafood, cheese, the poultry in my frozen meals, and the occasional red meat.

Overall, my uneducated opinion sides with an Occam's Razor explanation: (calories in) - (calories burned) = (calories stored/unstored). If anything makes that equation wrong, then something is messing up the metabolism. (For example, diabetes makes sugars unable to be metabolized; so "calories in" becomes "calories [not from sugar] in" in the equation.)

Now, perhaps Atkin's diet doesn't mess up the metabolism in a bad way, but still, it must. Anyone has an independant long-term study of Atkins-dieters? (And I mean over decades.)

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Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

Posts: 2289 | From: Gatineau, Quebec, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted October 27, 2010 14:23      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
all of them were making drastic dietary changes

Not just dangerous, but the most common cause of failure when people try to lose weight. If you go from a 3-burgers-a-day habit to lettuce and celery sticks, you're likely to fall off the wagon pretty soon, it's just too big a change for most people.

I think my current approach is more likely to succeed. Identify the 'worst' thing you're doing, and replace it with something 'better' **that you enjoy** (for me it was replacing a KFC lunch with fresh fruit). Try that for a couple of weeks, if you're not getting results, identify the worst thing you're doing...

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted October 27, 2010 16:41      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
yorik wrote:
Who knows more about nutrition and exercise: a pudgey dietician or somebody who gets on stage to compete professionally for their good looks?

The pudgy dietitian.

The bodybuilder will know little beyond how to eat and take care of a body that's being strenuously exercised for several hours every day. The diet they follow would quickly make anyone else incredibly fat (and that's assuming they aren't treating steroids like one of the primary food groups).

Self control != knowledge.

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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