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Author Topic: At what price energy?
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted June 10, 2010 07:53      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Erbo wrote:

Passive cooling only (i.e. fans, etc.) No air conditioning.

I don't think you understand the concept of passive cooling. Fans are active cooling devices (i.e. they use power).

No dishwasher. You've got a dishwasher, bub...it's called "your hands."

That's a common misconception. Washing dishes by hand often uess a lot more water and electricity than using a dishwasher.

Like most others, I can check off most of the other items mentioned and several would be far more wasteful than the way I actually live. One, at least, is sadly impossible: There are no residential areas within five miles of where I work and the only access is via an exit off a 65 MPH freeway. Short of buying an all-electric car (which wastes energy in production and recycling and waste disposal than it saves), there is no way to avoid the use of a combustion engine. I would love to live within walking distance of work, though, if it were possible.

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted June 10, 2010 21:44      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You try living without air conditioning in Louisiana and I guarantee you will quickly come to find it to be a necessity. Getting back to the topic of the oil spill, here is the mayor of Grand Isle bearing his soul to the U.S. Senate.

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted June 11, 2010 00:04      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
BP will die a death in the market place, even if they manage to "fix" this mess. The caps for clean up cost should be removed. This was an engineering disaster, who designed that stupid rig? I think a controlled burn should be done, but the crap they've added to the water will likely prevent them from following that avenue.

Erbo's list was aimed at the Hollywood and political elite that talk about conservation and shun waste, but live hyper-consumption lives that the average person could not afford and produces waste that some small countries have trouble meeting. I find it funny that no one points out that "raising awareness of an issue" doesn't do much when your trying to get people to live a life you're unwilling to live. That said, I know people who live message they are selling, and I respect them a whole lot more than I will ever respect Al Gore.

<rant type="coworker environmentalists">That said, how many "environmentalists" do you know who have Android devices, Web OS phones, iPads or iPhones in addition to a music player and computer? What did they do with their old phone? What car do they drive? Economic down turn, and every new cutting edge, over priced, smart phone that hits the market still sells out the first day. We are a consumer nation, including those who pretend to be "green." I have had very simple bar phone up until last year; I was lured into buying a Centro (the sales person asked why we aren't just waiting a month and buying a Pre). Since, I've rarely used any of the "smart" features beyond the calendar. We didn't get a data plan, didn't want the extra expense; but, it was my first new phone in quite a few years. The old looked beat up, but still runs to this day. The touch screen on mine cracked, and some of the "environmentalists" I work with (who happen upgrade phones at huge expense every 6 months or so) urge me to buy a new phone or at the very least replace the screen. The stuff I use my phone for, I've found, doesn't really require the use of touch, and while the crack is a little "ugly", it doesn't prevent me from reading the display. If it bothered me too much, I'd just switch back to my old Nokia bar phone. The phone is just one example. Another is the amount of stuff I see them received shipped which can be found locally; but they wanted the deal. You can't yell at someone for driving a SUV then have a bunch of stuff shipped from China without being a hypocrite. I know being environmentally aware doesn't mean living in a hut, but if you claim to care, and rant about the "evil SUVs" or hyper-consumption in America, then don't foolishly replace perfectly good hardware just because something shiny comes out.</rant>

Ironic part about the SUV debate is what originally made them popular with "soccer moms" was environmental regulations on cars, that meant the death of the station wagon. Now, they've decided to keep them for other reasons:
1. They are easier to get into and out of
2. They are higher off the ground and have better visibility
3. They feel safer, regardless of if they are or not

Make a vehicle that is safer on the road, uses less gas and meets the three above and you've solved all our problems. Until then, we're still planing on replacing our '93 Honda Accord wagon with either a minivan (Honda Odyssey 17/25 MPG) or SUV (CR-V 19/26 MPG) -- likely the minivan as car seats take up a lot of room.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted June 11, 2010 02:36      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
Howard Kunstler preaches about living in "walkable towns and neighborhoods served by the kind of public transit that people are not ashamed to ride in"...but he lives on a nice chunk of land out in the middle of the woods near Saratoga Springs, Florida. And I bet he's not using either "public transit" or a horse for travel...

Mr Kunstler lives in Saratoga Springs, New York not Florida.

I haven't read any of his work, but from his Wikipedia page the town sounds like just the kind of place he'd approve of, and it has an Amtrak station, so he may well have chosen it because it has public transport.

But that's just what's going on in 'reality' - and nice Mr Colbert warned us about 'reality'

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted June 11, 2010 03:40      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ BP, Halliburton, and TransOcean. What can we say about them. While I was in the USN, every sailor had to learn Damage Control, not the PR kind, but keep the ship afloat and put out fires. Every one had to know, even the Medic.

____ Where I worked I had to build and then maintain high speed production machines.

____ It appears that the people running the show at the oil spill don't know the way back from the break room.

____ The real reason the vents are open and still spewing oil is then the oil that comes to the top of the pipe is not contaminated, just put it in barges and send it to shore.

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Benjamin Franklin,

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted June 14, 2010 05:09      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Why the ____ is Halliburton, Transocean, and BP letting this go on???

____ Don't brag about the cleanup efforts stop the leak. Clean up will take thirty years, stop the leak now.

____ You have killed Eleven people, now stop the leak.

____ If Nasa can dock the space Schuttle with the ISS. If the Russians can dock with the ISS. Why can't you stick a pipe down that hole and start sucking???

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Benjamin Franklin,

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted June 14, 2010 06:08      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:


____ If Nasa can dock the space Shuttle with the ISS. If the Russians can dock with the ISS. Why can't you stick a pipe down that hole and start sucking???

This reminds me of one of my favorite Futurama quotes.


The space ship somehow winds up underwater on some ocean planet. Leela asks the Professor how much Pressure the ship can take as they go deeper and deeper. The Professor responds " Since we are in a spaceship I would guess between zero and one atmospheres."


Docking with something unde4r very high pressure is a completely different beast than docking in almost zero atmospheres. They had years to develop the tech to dock the shuttle. They have had weeks to develop the tech to dock with this leaaking well.

but perhaps they should have years ago already developed this technology. it is all risk analsyis . What was the likelyhood that they would need technology to cap an oil well at -5000'.

The risk analysis people were probably tols the blow out protector should be 99.99% effective, I may have also not thought this technology was needed.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted June 14, 2010 08:26      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ The ISS has a docking ring that must be hit correctly for it to rotate and secure the SS.

____ The Blow out Preventer has an ID of 23 inches, some one can not stick an internal expanding seal into that big of a target. Or the same crew can not fit a collar over the top flange and attach a pipe to the surface for that gas/oil mix to get to the surface. BS Ballard found the Titanic and at a deeper depth.

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/06/10/why-haven-t-we-heard-from-dick-cheney-on-the-oil-spill-.html

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Benjamin Franklin,

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted June 16, 2010 02:38      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I may have to cancel that surfing holiday in Alabama [Frown]

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted June 16, 2010 02:56      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
I may have to cancel that surfing holiday in Alabama [Frown]


Just think of all the money you will save on surf board wax.

Plus, it'll be more fun, you'll go faster on the slick waves.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted June 16, 2010 04:18      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Lessen time. those that work or live in buildings with sprinkler fire systems. Follow the pipe to where it gets its largest. near there will be the stand pipe. Look closely that is built up with flange fittings, the same as on the BOP.

____ BP assembled the riser pipe to the BOP, why can't they take out the bolts and attach a new pipe??? They have cut off the restrictive bends. Their ROV (Mini Subs) have actuators, just change out the pipe. The Bas.....s have the equipment to put it together, they can't change a pipe, poop its like changing a tire damn it. They put this string of pipe together from the top do it again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted June 16, 2010 05:31      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
____ Lessen time. those that work or live in buildings with sprinkler fire systems. Follow the pipe to where it gets its largest. near there will be the stand pipe. Look closely that is built up with flange fittings, the same as on the BOP.

____ BP assembled the riser pipe to the BOP, why can't they take out the bolts and attach a new pipe??? They have cut off the restrictive bends. Their ROV (Mini Subs) have actuators, just change out the pipe. The Bas.....s have the equipment to put it together, they can't change a pipe, poop its like changing a tire damn it. They put this string of pipe together from the top do it again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have heard on the news, for what it is worth, that it is too diffucult to use the required torque wrench at such depths with a ROV in order to do the required unscrewing and screwing.

This explanation makes sense to me.

though, if that had yeas of preperation like th space program had to do screwing and unscrewing in outer space, i am sure solutions could be developed.

But like with all times the Shit hits the fan, you just never have teh time required to solve teh problem the way you want.

It is a life lesson.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted June 16, 2010 12:21      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
They probably wanted to cut costs, and what better place than developing means to control a spill that's deemed unlikely to ever occur? Except unlikely is not the same as impossible, and when things break under high pressure holy shit do they break. Even so, seeing as something like this DID happen before, albeit in shallower water, you'd think they'd've decided to invest some time and effort in the "what do we do when it all fails" department.

It's also coming to light that lives and safety are cheap at BP facilities.

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted June 16, 2010 15:27      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This BP bashing has gone on long enough. At least 3m$ is being lost every day (by oil spilt - does not include cleanup costs). Does anyone actually think that BP are happy about this?

Also, they changed their name to BP from British Petroleum since they were an international company. 36% of shares are held by Americans.

I'm sure they are doing their best to stop the leak. It does them no good at all to lose their revenue stream.

Bolting two flanges together is easy. Doing it at 50 atmospheres using robot submarines, while the pipe is spewing out oil at 40000 barrels a day in limited visibility is less easy, especially when only one pipe is actually round, since the other was sheared away.

Nobody is happy about this, but everyone likes energy. Life is rubbish. Deal with it.

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snupy
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Icon 1 posted June 16, 2010 15:57      Profile for snupy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
All I can say is the whole thing just makes me want to cry.. [weep]

EVERY single time I see the news stories...

littlefish: Any news on the job?

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted June 16, 2010 16:46      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
littlefish wrote:
Does anyone actually think that BP are happy about this?

So, we shouldn't say anything about the fact that BP lied about the severity of the spill, photocopied a spill response plan rather than developing one, had experts lie under oath about the safety of the oil rig, cut corners and created dangerous conditions in order to save a few bucks, left out safety devices and killed 11 people because BP feels bad and has lost miniscule fraction of their yearly profit?

I don't think so.

The decision makers in BP's management deserve every bit of criticism that they get. In fact, I would go so far as to say they deserve to be arrested and tried for negligent homocide.

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Grummash

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Icon 1 posted June 16, 2010 16:56      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
A UK opinion which differs a little from littlefish's...

BP screwed up through negligence, and very probably wilful negligence at that.

Therefore Mr Obama is perfectly justified in kicking BP's ass... This does not constitute an "anti-British" attack, as has been suggested in the UK press.

BP were happy to take the billions in profit when everything was fine, so now they should take responsibility for their actions.

On a related note...can someone bring me up to speed on what the US government is doing about Union Carbide and the Bhopal disaster? [ohwell]

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted June 16, 2010 17:39      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If BP had done everything right and this disaster happened, I would have some sympathy for them. Sometimes shit just happens. But they cut corners. They've been documented cutting corners. So has Transocean. In fact, the rig was basically built to fail and proceeded to do exactly what it was designed to do. All so a multi-billion dollar multi-national company could pay out even bigger bonuses some quarter in the distant future. And now those would-be profits are spilling into the Gulf and someone might end up not being able to buy a new yacht this year. And meanwhile, 11 families are mourning their dead, people's entire livelihoods on the Gulf Shore are drowning in oil and ecosystems are being thrown into disarray...all because someone in a suit decided that it would be better to maximize profit at the expense of some good engineering and a fail-safe or two.

I feel no pity for BP. None at all. Maybe they didn't want this to happen, but they made a bloody choice and their choice was to play Russian roulette with the Gulf of Mexico. The thin sliver of silver lining to this is that BP has provided a stunning example of why deregulation (either through legislation or corruption) is a Bad Idea. The free market will not look after itself. Companies will not just do the right thing by their workers and the environment and everything else because they're all warm and fluffy and good-hearted like that. Companies just want to make as much money as possible and fsck anyone who isn't a shareholder. We saw that in the financial meltdown and now we're seeing it in the Gulf of Mexico.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted June 16, 2010 17:52      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Grummy, From what I have heard, that the State of India, and its courts basically less than slapped the collective wrists of Union Carbide. Because the accident happened in India it was tried in their courts.

____ If the present Brass at the three resopsible companies can not figure out how to handle this problem maybe they should get a hold of some of their retirees, some one that was forced out would know how to fix this mess, and when trying to stop a leak correct torques really don't matter

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Benjamin Franklin,

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted June 16, 2010 18:01      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I find myself midway between littlefish and his Grumpiness. First and most importantly BP had plenty of notice that there were things wrong with that rig before it blew, and failed to act. They also have a consistent record of sailing very close to the wind with the regulators, subcontract more of their operation than other oil companies, and generally behave as you would expect of a company that is run by accountants rather than engineers, with the sole aim of squeezing every last cent of profit out of each barrel of oil. The trouble is that that our glorious capitalist system encourages companies to be run this way, and IMO the difference between BP and the other oil companies is only one of degree, not of nature. This also seems to be bringing out America's incipient xenophobia. Not as bad as the anti French nonsense before the Iraq adventure, but there nonetheless. This is among the other irrational nonsense being spoken mainly, I believe, out of frustration. Perhaps the admirable American can do mentality finds it hard to accept that there could be a problem that stubbornly refuses be fixed immediately, even with enormous amounts of will money and manpower?

Roger Ebert has a typically thoughtful and eloquent piece on this. Read it here

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted June 16, 2010 18:30      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Look at the pictures, the old flange is intact. Take the bolts out and knock it aside, lower a new riser pipe with a new flange on the end. When it gets down to depth it will be full of water, the oil being lighter will rise up the pipe, put in the bolts and start tightening. Have a pilot flare at the upper end so when the gas bubbles hit the surface they will burn off. Once the oil starts up the pipe visibility will improve.

____ Please remember that in the US Navy everyone must know damage control, and fire fighting, if the ship sinks every one dies. There are specialized leaking pipe repair kits that could have been used before they cut the pipe.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted June 17, 2010 09:03      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ SMALL PEOPLE, LITTLE PEOPLE, CLOCK PEOPLE, YOUR ENGINEERS.

____ The people that have to do the work, for the Captains of Industry!

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0617/Studies-suggest-MMS-knew-blowout-preventers-had-critical-flaws

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted June 19, 2010 16:07      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Irony overdose

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted June 20, 2010 07:41      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Well it seems that Tony has gone from fossil fuels to solar, I know, but winds are created by solar heating. Some companies sure know how to pick their CEOs.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/20/bp-chief-yachts-gulf-oil-spill-burns/

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Benjamin Franklin,

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted June 20, 2010 13:08      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
We can all relax now, Sarah has a solution

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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