homeGeek CultureWebstoreeCards!Forums!Joy of Tech!AY2K!webcam

The Geek Culture Forums


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Geek Culture Forums   » News, Reviews, Views!   » Politics/Religion/Current Affairs   » At what price energy? (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!  
This topic comprises 7 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7 
 
Author Topic: At what price energy?
TheMoMan
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1659

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted April 28, 2010 06:01      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Twenty Four years ago the Russian reactor at Chernobyl came undone, Last month Twenty Nine Miners were killed, and just a few days ago Eleven Oil Rig workers died in a fire and Explosion.

____ Any comments?

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ashitaka

SuperFan!
Member # 4924

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted April 28, 2010 06:18      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
about a month ago, Obama signed an order allowing new off coast drilling in previously forbidden areas. I wonder what affect this disaster will have on that order. I supported that drilling at teh time thinking technology had progressed and the old oil spills of the past were new less technologically feasable. I think for the enviorment, it is better to have oil drilling done in "first" world countries where modern safety features are more likely to have been implemented because of law ratehr than in third world countries where there are not so many laws to protect the enviorment ond workers.

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

Posts: 3089 | From: Switzerland | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1659

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted April 28, 2010 13:21      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Ash, I am worried that the worlds appetite for all forms of energy will become a problem, when will the quest abate.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ashitaka

SuperFan!
Member # 4924

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted April 28, 2010 23:53      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
uhhh.... Whenthe EMP blst takes out all consumer electronics and automobiles.

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

Posts: 3089 | From: Switzerland | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Stibbons
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 2515

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted April 29, 2010 07:52      Profile for Stibbons   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oil is an inevitability in today's society (not just fuel, but plastics/pharma/etc), and such accidents an inevitability in gathering said oil. It's sadly ironic given BPs massive drive to be the "safest" oil company that it was one of the their rigs [ohwell]
Posts: 1143 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Xanthine

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 736

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted April 29, 2010 23:52      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I doubt we'll ever free ourselves entirely of petrochemicals, but if we could stop burning them, disasters like exploding oil rigs and collapsing coal mines would happen less frequently.

As far as plans for new drilling goes, I'd be shocked if this latest incident causes a true rethink. There's too much at stake, both politically and financially, for too many people in suits, for a little think like a massive oil spill and dead people to change anything.

--------------------
And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

Posts: 7670 | From: the lab | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
MTB Babe
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 2297

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted April 30, 2010 14:37      Profile for MTB Babe   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I wonder if this awful spill will lead to more definite action concerning ANWR (which, of course, will inevitably be opened up for drilling). I know the Exxon spill helped delay action there a long time ago, but I hear tell of this recent spill as actually promoting drilling in Alaska... [Confused]
I just heard that on a call-in radio show, so it's probably very bogus.

--------------------
Samir: No one in this country can ever pronounce my name right. It's not that hard: Na-ee-ana-jaad. Nayanajaad.
Michael Bolton: Yeah, well at least your name isn't Michael Bolton.

Posts: 1003 | From: State College, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1659

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 01, 2010 03:51      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ "Drill BABY Drill" "TFD" I read that there was a failure quite like the one in the Gulf of Mexico, off the coast of OZ.

____ The name that keeps coming up is Haliburton, don't they have any competion?

____ Being an INFO Hound I have been searching for how these platforms work. POOP this is an accident waiting to happen. A friggen mile of pipes,(Concentric like Coax) a floating drilling rig, explosive gasses. What else could be be stupid in this picture.

____ Now the plan is to build a huge inverted funnel and sink it over the leak and catch the oil at the surface. HOW ARE YOU GOING TO ANCHOR the boat? Yes this would work and it has been done before, but not at this depth or rate of flow.

____ NO BODY PLANED FOR, WHAT IF.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 01, 2010 04:52      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
____ "Drill BABY Drill" "TFD" I read that there was a failure quite like the one in the Gulf of Mexico, off the coast of OZ.

Yes, we had a bad one recently, but a long way from where most aussies live, so it didn't get the attention it deserved.

The NIMBY reflex is as strong in aussies as it is in merkins.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1659

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 01, 2010 09:06      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Now I find out that these off shore rigs leak some faster than others but that all the wells leak down at the bottom. The oil is carried away by the underwater currents.

____ Now when does the Earth look like a raisin (grape left out in the sun). This so blows open the adds by the oil and gas producers about how good they are.

____ Drill, BABY, Drill.

T.B. Pickens is starting to look good again.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan
Member # 170

Icon 1 posted May 01, 2010 10:26      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'll just leave this here

--------------------
Worst. Celibate. Ever.

Posts: 6364 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1659

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 01, 2010 15:43      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ "You Betcha, hows that working for ya." [devil wand]

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Xanthine

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 736

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted May 06, 2010 00:41      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Bushies just couldn't resist another chance at screwing the Gulf (just in case they recovered from Katrina, you know):
quote:
A rule change two years ago by the federal agency that regulates offshore oil rigs allowed BP to avoid filing a plan specifically for handling a major spill from an uncontrolled blowout at its Deepwater Horizon project exactly the kind of disaster now unfolding in the Gulf of Mexico.

Oil rig operators generally are required to submit a detailed "blowout scenario." But the federal Minerals Management Service issued a notice in 2008 that exempted some drilling projects in the Gulf under certain conditions.

Remind me again why deregulation is a good idea...

--------------------
And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

Posts: 7670 | From: the lab | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan
Member # 170

Icon 1 posted May 06, 2010 05:33      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Xanthine wrote:
Remind me again why deregulation is a good idea...

Because the constitution doesn't say anything about regulating oil wells or protecting the environment and government needs to be smaller and stay out of our lives.

</tea party>

Besides, the free market is self-adjusting and will produce better results than a market saddled with regulations.

</libertarian>

Not to mention all the campaign donations that BP makes.

</republican and democrat>

Anyway, "The ocean will take care of this on its own if it was left alone and left out there. It's natural. It's as natural as the ocean water is."

</limbaugh>

--------------------
Worst. Celibate. Ever.

Posts: 6364 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 06, 2010 07:11      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 -

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1659

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 06, 2010 08:17      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Not a total thread jack, but I started this thread. We have and are looking for the best price on home heating Propane.

Company A: we have been with them for five years. $2.08/Gallon of liquid under pressure. No extra fees.

Company B: $1.499/Gallon but we must buy our own container at $900.

Company C: $1.89/Gallon Plus Hazmat fee of $12.5 and $25.00 charge for delivery so thirty seven dollars each delivery plus the amount of gas delivered.

Companys A/C will not deliver into customer owned tanks.

____ So it appears we will stay with our Currant provider. We usually buy #300/400 gallons per fill.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1659

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 07, 2010 05:06      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Hi every one, I found this link, and they at least are telling the truth, some news agencies are claiming that the dome will stop the leak, (NOT) it only will redirect the escaping oil.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100507-706977.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines

____ Okay, how high will the oil rise above the water level in that stand pipe? I know that eventually the oil water mix will seperate, divorce so to speak.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1659

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 08, 2010 09:52      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ It appears that there was a special dispensation for this well and others recently. These BOPs do not seem to do the job they were intended to do.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-05-08-oil-rig-blast_N.htm

____ So why even go through the motions if they don't work?

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Erbo
Discontinued


Icon 1 posted May 11, 2010 00:46            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Have a look at this plan put forth by Karl Denninger:

http://musings.denninger.net/archives/54-Iran-Bringing-the-US-Energy-Situation-To-A-Head.html

You'll notice that the plan does include "drill baby drill." But only as a first step.

Long term (and when he says "long term," he means "within 20 years"), we want to transition the U.S. off petroleum and coal as primary fuel sources. Petroleum has other uses for which it's far too valuable: for making plastics, for instance. Denninger's solution is to mandate the use of compression-ignition (Diesel) engines, and then make fuel for those engines from raw biomass using the German process. Such fuel is not only renewable, it is 100% carbon neutral, as the CO2 given off by burning it will be reabsorbed by plants to make more biomass. And the greater thermodynamic efficiency of Diesel engines is like boosting fuel economy by 30% at a stroke, without forcing Americans into tiny, unsafe cars.

In addition, he proposes to transition the entire U.S. power grid off petroleum and coal. The main thing we will need to do that is nukes. Lots and lots of nukes. (Wind and solar plants may be built, too, but they will never contribute as much in net power output as the nukes will.) You can make synthetic petroleum from coal, but it's expensive to do, so we won't do that right now, but we'll save the coal reserves for if we need that someday.

The practical upshot of this is: 100% energy independence from foreign powers, a stable system of producing energy and using it with greater efficiency, vast reduction or elimination of carbon dioxide output from transportation and electrical power generation, the two biggest contributors to net CO2 output (and thus stuffing a sock in the arguments of the Kyoto supporters), and a BIG contribution to domestic prosperity.

The technology required for all this was all proven as of 2006, and may have been refined since then. The major obstacle to doing all of this is the liberal envirofreaks, whose ability to stop all this from happening would have to be vastly curtailed. (Energy is inherently traded in interstate commerce, and the elimination of possible foreign interference in our economy is a national security issue. Those facts should help.)

By the way, if you're not reading Karl Denninger on a regular basis, you SHOULD be. His main site, at http://market-ticker.denninger.net, discusses the economy and finance, and he's not afraid to tell it like it is...or to excoriate politicians of all parties and stripes, where necessary. He blames Bush and Paulson as much as Obama and Geithner for the current financial mess we're in, for instance. Recommended to anyone.

IP: Logged
Ashitaka

SuperFan!
Member # 4924

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 11, 2010 00:56      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ERBO---


This actually sounds "do-able". but it won't happen. 300 million people who brought up to think they have the right to do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else aren't going to all agree to switch off of petroleum.

Though, I think a the first major step to ending foriegn oil dependance is to tax it at the rate most all first world countires do ( 100% + rates). to drive up the cost and make the alternatives much more appealing.

When buying my latest car I really thought about getting the diesel version ( which btw gets like 85 american MPG) I settled on a really efficient gasoline motor ( ca 50-55 mpg) becuase teh really effcient desiels are really expensive ( 5 grand more for the same car) and we have no tax break or financial help($$$) for buying efficient cars here.)

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

Posts: 3089 | From: Switzerland | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
fs

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 1181

Icon 1 posted May 11, 2010 05:20      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
This actually sounds "do-able". but it won't happen. 300 million people who brought up to think they have the right to do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else aren't going to all agree to switch off of petroleum.

Of course what we've discovered (sans those that think climate change is a liberal conspiracy, anyway) is that the way we're using that petroleum is hurting others.

--------------------
I'm in ur database, makin' moar recordz.

Posts: 1973 | From: The Cat Ship | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 11, 2010 16:00      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
boosting fuel economy by 30% at a stroke, without forcing Americans into tiny, unsafe cars.

Ah, the myth of the unsafe small car.

The truth is, the typical 'small' (by American standards) European car is safer than the 'big means safe' SUV's a lot of Americans drive

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Xanthine

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 736

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted May 11, 2010 16:34      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That and a lot of Americans are complete idiots with their SUVs because they think that they're now magically safer. The manufacturers know that too - that's why they're able to sell SUVs that not only lack four-wheel drive, they're actually rear-wheel. But people buy 'em anyway because they're big and that somehow makes them safe. And anyone who's spent one winter in a place like Colorado can tell you all about the results. [Roll Eyes] Honestly, I'd say about 10% of the people who have a SUV in this state actually need it for the purposes those cars were originally built for. Everyone else just bought one because they're either compensating for something or don't know how to drive and don't have the guts or wits to learn.

Nuclear power is an excellent idea that's unlikely to gain traction without a massive public education campaign. There's the Chernobyl way, and then there's the way the French are doing it. Unfortunately, when you say "nuclear power" in the US, everyone immediately thinks of Chernobyl or Three Mile Island and they just shut down. And uranium mining would start again, which is, to my mind at least, a much bigger environmental hazard than the plants themsevles, albeit much more localized than the dust and crap from a Chernobyl-like accident.

--------------------
And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

Posts: 7670 | From: the lab | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Callipygous
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 2071

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 11, 2010 17:43      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Erbo, I'm delighted that you have decided to contribute to political debate again. You were always one of the most coherent right wingers here. However just so we try to get off to a good post partisan start, if you refrain from describing those who disagree with you as "envirofreaks", I'll try to limit my use of "wingnut", and so on. [Wink]

On the substantive points of your argument, there are problems associated with growing fuel crops. Some ascribe the rise in the price of staple crops, (wheat, rice etc.) to the amount of fuel crops already being grown in the US, and while this does not have a big effect here in the developed world, in the third world it has been dramatic & catastrophic. You could argue that this is not America's problem, and the prime duty of the US is to look after its own citizens, nevertheless it does conjure up the unpleasant image of carefree Americans driving their SUVs over the starving bodies of the poor of other countries.

I happen to agree with you that nuclear has to play a bigger role in future energy policy, but I don't think we need to repeat the well rehearsed counter arguments to realise that this too is not a magic bullet for US energy problems

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

Posts: 2922 | From: Brighton - UK | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted May 11, 2010 19:59      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Quoth Erbo

the use of compression-ignition (Diesel) engines, and then make fuel for those engines from raw biomass...

the greater thermodynamic efficiency of Diesel engines is like boosting fuel economy by 30% at a stroke...

The major obstacle to doing all of this is the liberal envirofreaks

So, it's them damn commie tree-huggers who are stopping us from getting fuel-efficient cars?

I must have missed that in the tree-huggers collective newsletter. Curse that recycled paper and soy-based ink!

I s'pose I'd better go sell my 60 MPG diesel car then, before the comrades find out.

quote:
Quoth Callipygous:

there are problems associated with growing fuel crops...
...it does conjure up the unpleasant image of carefree Americans driving their SUVs over the starving bodies of the poor of other countries

BioDiesel production doesn't have to take food from the mouths of the poor.

For example, one of the most efficient feedstocks for BioDiesel is algae. Algae can be grown in vats fed with organic waste (sewage, household garbage, farm waste, even CO2 from coal-burning power stations) thus solving an energy problem and a waste disposal problem at the same time. The vats can be on land unsuitable for normal agriculture, so you're not displacing food crops.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged


All times are Eastern Time
This topic comprises 7 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7 
 
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Geek Culture Home Page

2015 Geek Culture

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.4.0


homeGeek CultureWebstoreeCards!Forums!Joy of Tech!AY2K!webcam