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Author Topic: Planet Earth to the Republicans!
Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted March 24, 2010 06:34      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This is in some respects a follow on to Sxepto's Nazi Communist thread, but I also want to ask a couple of questions.

Anyone who follows US politics can most days run across notions and assumptions endorsed by mainstream Republican figures that in the rest of the world you would not hear outside a psychiatric ward. For example before the healthcare vote, (and BTW [Applause] [Applause] Dems, Pelosi, and Obama [Applause] [Applause] ), congressman Devin Nunes defended those who had just previously taunted House members with some choice epithets featuring the words "nigger" and "faggot", as not being responsible for their actions because they had been driven "crazy" by the Democrats "totalitarian" tactics. I don't think I need to pick apart his reasoning.

Well I only wish this was unusual, but as the last thread showed, this kind of talk is almost becoming the norm, and just so we don't have to enumerate every half assed stunt they've pulled, here is a fairly comprehensive list. Quite shocking when you see it all gathered together in one place, isn't it?

The questions I want to ask are, how did they get into this quagmire, and is there any road out? Is there any intellectually respectable choice for a conservative voter in the US? Are there any ordinary middle of the road conservatives with enough fight to take back their party? Without change US democracy is broken, we either have the possibility of a future Republican administration of these drooling madmen that will make the last one look like Mary Poppins, or Democrats with so little real opposition that they become hopelessly corrupt, or perhaps even the admittedly very remote possibility of civil war. At the least, it isn't difficult to imagine the incendiary language on the Right leading to some serious violence.

If I may humbly offer my own outsider's view, I suspect it goes deeper than Rush/Beck and their ilk. They are only stirring a pot that was already bubbling. Could it be the toxic mixture of religion and politics that is ultimately responsible? When those two become mixed up, with God on your side, debate becomes unnecessary, and any accommodation or compromise with your opponents, who are of course on Satan's side, becomes a sign of moral weakness.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted March 24, 2010 08:12      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Callipygous, Please excuse my feeble attempts to explain American Politics.

____ People like Rush & Glenn are pot stirrers they are off the road on the conservative right

____ Liberals like Michael Moore are off the road on the left, so far he is past the ditch.

____ Now add in the right to life groups, and pro-choice and the rhetoric gets even worse.

____ I am going to name four presidents that I feel attempted to do what was right for the Country not the party. Teddy Roosevelt, Harry Truman, D.D.Eisenhower , Jimmy Carter.

____ Every body seems to act like every issue is Black and White with no Grey zone.

____ The average Citizens feels trapped by the government and it's helping banks and insurance companies extortion.

____ I myself feel that abortion is repugnant, however I also feel that a Dr. may need to perform one to save a woman's life, so I think that puts me right in the Grey zone and hated by both sides. What to do,what to do.

____ The great Statesmen have died.

____ Callipygous, TheMoMan has fear, for his country.

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Benjamin Franklin,

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted March 24, 2010 09:56      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I like your list , I would like it even more if someone tried to make a similar one for the democratic side, for comparison, and to be fair.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted March 24, 2010 12:50      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Callipygous wrote:
Quite shocking when you see it all gathered together in one place, isn't it?

It is, but you need to read the list with a grain of salt. Many of the entries are due to media figures such as Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck; people who are basically paid to be controversial and offensive. In many cases, they either don't believe what they're saying (which explains the frequency of contradictory stances) or don't believe it as strongly as they claim.

The questions I want to ask are, how did they get into this quagmire, and is there any road out?

I don't think the server has enough space to store a proper explanation. Much of it has to do with crowd psychology and the way people in the United States express their belief systems (religious and otherwise).

If an American believes someone is doing something seriously wrong (eating meat, having an abortion, having gay sex, giving money to the poor), they're quite likely to say something. A smaller, but still significant, percentage will go further and aggressively demonstrate their hatred with insults, screaming, shouting and badly spelled protest signs (shaving is a good thing, though *ahem*). A very small number will go further still and commit acts of violence.

The majority of people who wouldn't be aggressive on their own will tend to either tolerate or support those who are, however, so a politician that wants the most votes can pander to the aggressive group and safely assume that the majority of the non-aggressive will still give their votes. As a result, there is virtually no incentive for politicians to speak out against the aggressive minority and plenty of incentive to defend and/or support them.

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ewomack
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Icon 1 posted March 24, 2010 15:22      Profile for ewomack   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't think people in the US have the slightest clue what is going on politically. Most people get their political news from entertainment sources rather than news sources (news is nearly non-existent in the US). What's more, news is boring but pot stirrers are exciting and fun. Plus, they point fingers, which is also fun. So the majority of people (that I meet, at least) derive their views of the world from polarized party or ideological propaganda. So the population becomes more and more polarized. The left/Democrats aren't immune to this either , though their policies tend to include far more humanity than I hear from what's now called "the right" (but is actually a statist fundamentalist movement that goes so far to the right it's unfair to conservatives to label them conservatives). To make it worse, tolerance for alternate views is pretty much zero. Reps will hate health care because its a Demo bill, likewise, Demos hated the Iraq war because they associated it with Bush, but few of the same people are spewing over "Obama's war." In short, we have a horrible mess here that just gets scarier by the week. Most sad, people don't consider the possibility that both "sides" might be part of one single game.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted March 24, 2010 15:36      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think Colbert had a good point recently, when he compared politics to professional wrestling.

There's a willing suspension of disbelief. Deep down, the republicans and teabaggers know Obama isn't really an Al Qaeda sleeper-agent who's going to kill their granny, just as the wrestling fans know the 'bad guy' wrestler didn't really bring a crow-bar into the ring to beat the crap out of the 'good guy'. But they act like they believe.

Maybe they think they'll actually convince some gullible voters.

Maybe they don't want to be the only one at the party meeting to say the emperor has no clothes.

Or maybe they just enjoy living in a make-believe world of white-hatted heroes and black-hatted villains.

If those people actually believed half of the rhetoric they spout about the Obama administration, America would have dissolved into civil war by now.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted March 24, 2010 16:12      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ TFD, it hasn't happened yet. Here in Michigan the 1st Congressinal District Mr. Stupak has started getting Death Threats. Mr. Stupack a Liberal from an area of Michigan teeming with Conservatives walks a thin line down the Middle of the road. I agree with most of his positions, however I believe that the threats are not from his electorate. Again the silent majority is out shouted.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted March 25, 2010 03:20      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
I like your list , I would like it even more if someone tried to make a similar one for the democratic side, for comparison, and to be fair.

I've had it with that "plague on both your houses" sh*t, and the equally nonsensical "there are extremists on the left too" cr*p.

There is nothing from the Dems or the "liberal media conspiracy" that supports them, that remotely compares to the hate intolerance and bile that spews from the right.

If you can show otherwise Ash, I will be happy to be enlightened.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted March 25, 2010 14:34      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've also been reflecting on these things lately, after pointing out some historical inaccuracies on Facebook resulted in me being called a "libtard" who should "fall off a cliff." Funny at times how moderates get crap aimed their way from both sides.

Demagogues like Limbaugh and Beck definitely seem to be influencing things for the worse, often through misleading ignorant people. It's a little frustrating at times how pointing out that the facts are all wrong when they come up with some new argument will not have the slightest effect. They ignore facts, argue that somehow the facts are irrelevant to the argument, and/or launch into personal attacks. The utter irrationality has left me scratching my head quite a few times.

I'd actually like to say it's a new phenomenon, but it doesn't really seem to be when you look at history. After all, it was in the early years of this country that a couple of founding fathers made politics so personal one ended up killing the other in a duel.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted March 25, 2010 16:39      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Snaggy will you blow this out of here, I had not clicked the post button, however the browser thought I did.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted March 25, 2010 16:45      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Sometimes it appears lonely in the middle of the road, as the lunatics hurl insults at each other, from the ditches. Now I see that our President has offend the Jewish bloc. Well that should give the GOP more TALKING POINTS.

____ This summer and fall should be entertaining for the rest of the world, it may even be for the Merkins.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted March 25, 2010 17:17      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well Sxepto that you have something in common with some fairly distinguished names from the right, it seems the modern conservative movement does not encourage independent thought.

Steen and TFD, I agree that for many if not most of the people involved this is political theatre, but I do wonder if there is some Lee Harvey Oswald or Timothy McVeigh closeted in a room somewhere soaking up this stuff from his radio and TV. After all if I follow Sxepto's lead and look through history, there have also been quite a few Presidents that have been assassinated. It also bothers me that much of the language of Beck and Limbaugh is seeping into mainstream politics, either directly or indirectly through the use of "dog whistle" phrases like "the tyranny of the majority".

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted March 26, 2010 02:20      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Callipygous, That is the crux of the matter, There are areas of many states that are home to like minded people. Here in my home state are about three or four Militias, that have very large weapons stashes, large enough to make WACO look like a candle. Many believe that the Civil War should be re-fought or rematch. There are more and more displays of "The Stars and Bars" some nutter is going to go over the deep end.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted March 26, 2010 15:04      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The trouble is Moman, that it's a bit like someone who threatens (or makes unsuccessful) suicide attempts. There is a tendency not to take them seriously. "Oh well it's just a cry for help" and suchlike, until they succeed. So until someone does something, and perhaps even then, all we'd hear is even more angry talk about the 1st amendment. I obviously cannot match your scary stories, but I have noticed that if you go to those parts of the Internet where the exhibitionists and nutters congregate, such as YouTube comment threads and the links therefrom, the language has ramped up both in volume and intensity by several orders of magnitude in the last year.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted March 26, 2010 16:50      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Calli, I get scared when people that do not know the horror of war talk about how we should go get those B______ds. Then there are the out and out racists, too many people have died over how other people pray. I live right under the flight path of the Michigan AIR Gaurd they come through her twice a day with a pair of A-10s Low and Slow. I wonder if they are looking for a militia camp?

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted March 28, 2010 07:46      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ The GOP & The Tea Baggers have been having a field day with OBAMA CARE. Well this seems to be Private Insuro CARE.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/HeartFailureNews/newborns-family-learns-pre-existing-conditions-apply-birth/story?id=10218514

____ So what is different between them if coverage is denied?

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted March 28, 2010 11:38      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So why don't you write a new version of health care bill that overlooks nothing, has no loopholes and will get enough votes to be put into law?

It sucks that there are loopholes, but any complex piece of legislation will have them. Even if it didn't, the various parts of the law don't go into effect for anywhere from six months to four years (depending on the specific part), so it would still be too late for this child.

This child is a victim of the current medical system, not the health care law that hasn't gone into effect yet. Place the blame where it belongs; on the only real "death panels"... the for-profit insurance companies that decide who gets life-saving health care and who gets denied.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted March 28, 2010 13:26      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Steen not tring to start a fight, but one side throws rocks and the other throws them back.


____ I feel give every one Medicare, and if you don't want Medicare. then go buy your own insurance.

____ I had the Rolls Royce of Medical Insurance then the Company went belly up so Now I have to buy medical on Auto/Motorcycles polices?

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted March 28, 2010 19:05      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yeah, I was/am pro-public option too and am bitterly disappointed, though completely unsurprised, that didn't go through. Fsck, our insurance system is remaining private but because it's going to be regulated and those that purchase insurance will be subsidized, people are still screaming socialism. [Roll Eyes]

My husband grew up in a communist state. He about falls out of his chair laughing when the socialism charge goes up. During election season he was asking if any of these people would know a real socialist if one bit them in the face and you know, I don't think they would.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted March 28, 2010 19:55      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Yeah, I was/am pro-public option too and am bitterly disappointed, though completely unsurprised, that didn't go through. Fsck, our insurance system is remaining private but because it's going to be regulated and those that purchase insurance will be subsidized, people are still screaming socialism.

Ironically, Obama's "socialist" health care system looks very similar to how health care was here in the late 70's/early 80's, and that was introduced by a conservative government.

Quick history lesson:
In the early 70's the Labor government introduced a universal health system.

In the mid 70's the conservatives got elected, promising to retain the new health system, a promise they broke so fast it's a wonder they didn't injure themselves in their haste. What they replaced it with was compulsory private insurance, with subsidies for the poor.

It was a deeply unpopular move, when Labor got re-elected they promptly reintroduced a universal public system, and no conservative government since has dared to scrap it, in fact our most recent conservative PM extended it in ways that have saved Clan McDruid thousands of dollars in recent years.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted March 29, 2010 00:24      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I just had a teahadist on another site tell me that all the crazy stuff you hear about the teabaggers is malicious lies put about by the jews.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted March 29, 2010 00:35      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Please people, American Politics are influenced by Lobbists. Last year 2009 $3,000,000,000.00 was handed out in Washinton or at Party Dinners. Of that sum $600,000,000.00 came from Health Interests, to them it is just the cost of doing business, kind of a hidden tax.

____ Not one penny of that money helped a single patient get better, but it did help that Health Interest get a better bottom line.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted March 29, 2010 01:39      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ I knew it was bound to happen, I guess they did not stay Below the Radar.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hGc00FR9o4OUr36gm80mOpG00ccwD9EO5TDO1

http://www.post-trib.com/news/2128095,new-fbiraid0329a.article

http://www.detnews.com/article/20100329/METRO/3290334/Militia-members-arrested-in-Sun.-raid-to-be-charged-today

____ This bunch is South of me by about 150 miles, the scary ones are North of here.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted March 29, 2010 07:06      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Yeah, I was/am pro-public option too and am bitterly disappointed, though completely unsurprised, that didn't go through. Fsck, our insurance system is remaining private but because it's going to be regulated and those that purchase insurance will be subsidized, people are still screaming socialism.

Ironically, Obama's "socialist" health care system looks very similar to how health care was here in the late 70's/early 80's, and that was introduced by a conservative government.

Quick history lesson:
In the early 70's the Labor government introduced a universal health system.

In the mid 70's the conservatives got elected, promising to retain the new health system, a promise they broke so fast it's a wonder they didn't injure themselves in their haste. What they replaced it with was compulsory private insurance, with subsidies for the poor.

It was a deeply unpopular move, when Labor got re-elected they promptly reintroduced a universal public system, and no conservative government since has dared to scrap it, in fact our most recent conservative PM extended it in ways that have saved Clan McDruid thousands of dollars in recent years.

The commentary I've been reading suggests that, no matter what conservatives do, support for universal health care will likely grow rapidly once the reform begins to take hold. Even if a conservative is elected in three years, by then people will have grown attached to most aspects of the reform. At least one poll suggests this is already happening.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted March 29, 2010 07:27      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
The commentary I've been reading suggests that, no matter what conservatives do, support for universal health care will likely grow rapidly once the reform begins to take hold. Even if a conservative is elected in three years, by then people will have grown attached to most aspects of the reform. At least one poll suggests this is already happening.

The real challenge for the Republicans is how to gracefully back off from their "armageddon" opposition to the changes in time for the next election.

I'm pretty sure they don't want to campaign in 2012 on a policy of stripping 30 million people of their health insurance, and reimposing the "pre-existing condition" restrictions on millions more. But they've whipped their supporters up into such a "death panel" frenzy that any Republican candidate supporting the new system would get shredded in the primaries.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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