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Author Topic: How Many Ways?
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2009 02:56      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____________ TheMoMan Here __ How Many Ways? Can the government or a stalker find you?

OnStar may be built into your car.

GPS may be on your phone.

http://www.techweb.com/article/showArticle?articleID=213201991§ion=News

It is becoming harder to drop out of sight, It is too easy for a gov. agent or a stalker to track your every move.

So if you were getting unwanted attention how easy or hard would it be to shut off all of this?

Kind of blows the (%[email protected]*) out of the Fourth Amendment, except we are setting up 1984 our selves!!

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2009 05:52      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So, if I go out of my way to download a program to display my location onto my phone, then configure that program to send my location to Google (which it doesn't do by default) and then put people into my contacts list (only contacts get to see the info), it's Google's fault and they're invading my privacy?

I suppose it's my cell phone company's fault if I call someone and tell them where I am, too. [shake head]

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2009 06:48      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The real problem is when employers start to insist that their staff use this facility -- or face getting fired. The "I've got nothing to hide, therefore I have nothing to fear" argument will once and for all be shown to be dangerous rubbish.

Just 'cos it may not adversely affect you doesn't mean that some poor sucker somewhere isn't going to feel the unpleasantness of this development.

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Shameless plug. (Please forgive me.)

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2009 07:38      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm sorry, but if you work for an employer who decides to go all Orwellian and demands that you install software to track your location on your cell phone, it's time to hand in your resignation and move on.

This is a non-issue... particularly since cell phone tracking software has been available for years and employers aren't using it.

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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Snaggy

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Icon 12 posted February 06, 2009 07:41      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Personally, I can't wait for this, so I can find Nitrozac when we lose each other in the grocery store. [Big Grin]
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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2009 07:57      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Don't get a cell phone. Problem solved.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2009 08:01      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
_________________ TheMoMan Again __ Some of you have missed my point. Some hacker gets into your Google Acc. and starts tracking you, This person may be a stalker, some local police agent may get the info and start hassling you, so the only way to stop these uses is to not use them.

Back in my tour of the world in the US Canoe club. I was in a squadron that flew electronic intercept equipment, From what I knew then until now I know that the capabilities are much greater and how good are the safe guards?

Some of you may remember that I am a SKYWARN observer. so we use some pretty cool programs, while working with the National Weather Service, With my Laptop and Delorme Street atlas, plus APRS (Automatic Packet Reporting System) While on call out, any other ham running APRS can determine my location to 3 meters, as I can his, if some one falls silent, the last known position is held on the screen. This also works very good during river rescues. The Civil Air Patrol activates during forest fires and several of their Pilots and or Observers are hams. When the activation is ended I disconnect the cables, log out of and shut off APRS.

Now, I think that finding someone in a store may be hard because the building steel may block the GPS signals.

Also Home Depot, is lending a hand to Emergency Comm.

http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2009/02/06/10615/

I may be Chicken Little, but the sky may be falling. It is your call if you want to broad cast your where abouts to the world.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2009 08:25      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
January 20th, 2006... Oh look, cell phone tracking. You had to opt in then, too.

Seriously. This is not new. This is just people freaking out because it's from Google.

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2009 10:20      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GrumpySteen:
I'm sorry, but if you work for an employer who decides to go all Orwellian and demands that you install software to track your location on your cell phone, it's time to hand in your resignation and move on.

This is a non-issue... particularly since cell phone tracking software has been available for years and employers aren't using it.

Err... apart from the fact that not everyone is in a position to make such a decision -- there are people out there in locations where there is only one employer of that kind. Changing workplaces is rarely as straightforward as you may claim. I'm not saying that this will be a problem, it's just that dismissing it out of hand doesn't help anyone.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2009 15:23      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The employer would have to require the employee to do all of these things:
a) install the program on the cell phone
b) add the employer to their contact list in Google
c) enable the broadcast of the cell phone location to their contacts
d) not subsequently disable the broadcast
e) not remove the employer from the contact list
f) carry the cell phone with them wherever they go
g) not turn off the cell phone
h) not let the cell phone run out of power

And even if the employee does all of that... the employer would have to foot the bill for a cell phone plus the calling and data plans (or are you proposing that they'll force the employees to pay for themselves to be tracked with no reimbursement).

Assuming you find some coporation that is willing to pay the money and all the rest...

Employees can sue their employer's ass off for doing it.

Privacy laws are a fun. They're very losely written and include something called "intrusion upon seclusion" which basically says that people cannot arbitrarily monitor anything that is considered private and would not be generally known (which your location outside of work most certainly is) without opening themselves up to lawsuits from any and all employees who care to file one.

Kinda explains why employers didn't start monitoring employees in the last three years that this has been possible, doesn't it.

So in conclusion... yes, I can dismiss this out of hand. Nobody needs helped or saved from Evil Google Machinations!(tm) because there simply aren't any in this case.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2009 16:49      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____________________ Grumpy __ Again you have missed my point. I am not raging against Google though they do know far more about us than I like.

Any Cell System can triangulate your position, especially during a 911 call, those cell phones with GPS will report the Lat, & Lon to 911.

OnStar can be turned on from out side the vehicle by OnStar or law enforcement and turned into a listening device even while the phone section is in use by the occupants.

A few years back. earlier than than 2004 the feds tracked down the mail box bomber with his non-GPS phone by watching the cars go from one Cell tower to the next as he drove along an interstate. Eventually they noticed that one car was always at the hand-off zone at each hand-off, of his cell phone.

As to the safety of Google's data and should you entrust them with that much info is up to you. But by getting a Cell Phone you are being tailed, with or with out Google's help. By buying a car with OnStar you CAN be listened in on while driving down the road even if the cell phone feature is turned off, It was put in for theft protection, but it is always on and can be accessed by the OnStar service. So do you trust OnStar with what goes on in your car. I am sure the dealer will not tell you these things while they hype the safety features of OnStar.

You better study up on case law, an employee was discharged for smoking, the rational was that the employer was paying the Medical Insurance and smokers cost more to insure.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2009 18:06      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The employee you refer to would not have been prosecuted for smoking, but for making fraudulent claims in order to get a reduction in his insurance rate.

Fraud is illegal and privacy laws will not protect you from criminal charges, nor will they allow you to file a lawsuit against someone who turns you in for committing fraud. That's not what they're intended for and if it were possible to use them that way, they would be revised. "I killed her in my bedroom and you can't prosecute me because you'd be invading my privacy" will never be an effective defense.

Apples and oranges...

Maybe you should do a little reading up on privacy laws yourself?

*edit*

Also... as far as OnStar goes? One of the huge selling points that they push in the ads is that they can tell if you've been in a crash and can send help to your location if you don't respond to them when they call you. That way you get rescued even if you're incapacitated. That pretty much screams "we're monitoring you and can tell where you are."

What, exactly, do you want the ads to say? Perhaps "We like stalking people, so sign up today so we can stalk you too!" would be sufficient?

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2009 18:16      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Linky linky2

quote:
From TFA:
Four employees of a health care company have been fired for refusing to take a test to determine whether they smoke cigarettes.

Weyco Inc., a health benefits administrator based in Okemos, Mich., adopted a policy Jan. 1 that allows employees to be fired if they smoke, even if the smoking happens after business hours or at home.

Company founder Howard Weyers has said the anti-smoking rule was designed to shield the firm from high health care costs. “I don’t want to pay for the results of smoking,” he said.

quote:
From TFA2:
the company president announced, "As of January 1st, 2005, anyone that has nicotine in their body will be fired," Anita remembers. "And we sat there in awe. And I spoke out at that time. 'You can't do that to us.' And then he said, 'Yes, I can.' I said, 'That's not legal.' And he came back with, 'Yes, it is.'"

And it was legal: in Michigan, there's no law that prevents a boss from firing people virtually at will. At Weyco, that meant no smoking at work, no smoking at home, no smoking period...

..."Under the law in all but five states in America, your boss can fire you for any reason under the sun. Including who you associate with after work. Whether you're smoking or drinking in your own home. Or a bumper sticker on your car. And you have no legal recourse."

Personally, I think employers should nicotine test their employees daily, and any who fail should be urinated on by their non-smoking workmates, but that's just me.
<rabid-anti-smoker>

[edit] And another case here

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2009 02:44      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
__________________ Back to being tracked, or tailed. __ Please look up TDOA (Time delay on arrival) If you have three or more sensors record an event (radio or audio) the point of origination can be determined with complex math. LINKY

http://urgentcomm.com/mag/radio_tdoa_technology_locating/

Please check the date stamp on in the article.

As hams we use the method during what we call fox hunts. The police in some cities use microphones on utility poles to figure out where shots were fired.

Cell Phone companies use this to tell 911 where you are.

This from the study of the circle that three points define a circle, and four points not coplanar define a sphere.

As to the OnStar ads you must be in the 50% of the population that realize, that it has many more modes than they are telling you.

The DEA was tailing a suspect in a car with OnStar, While in listen in mode they heard about the next deal going down.

The Cell Phone companies could clear you as a suspect or keep you on the list from tower records. So keep your mobile tracking device turned on, we want to know where you are.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2009 12:09      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mo_Man

The more ways the government has to track you, then the more ways you have to get lost.

I have had an attorney, cop, and a private detective all tell me that all of can be tracked, the trick is to make it very expensive to do so.

I suppose I have hung around too many "off grid" types to learn about this kind of stuff.

I went off grid (also known as off paper) for a year once. It was kind of fun.

CP

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Free! Free at last!

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2009 02:33      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
__________________ TheMoMan again __ Do as the Amish, drop all connections, Phone, Cable, CELL PHONE, and gasp Computer Internet. Go off into the woods and live off grid. Use general delivery for mail.

You are pretty well shielded from snoops.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2009 08:16      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So basically in order to be shielded from snoops I have to quit doing anything that would be worth snooping into? No thanks. My life is boring enough as it is.

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—Miss Piggy

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alfrin
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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2009 09:03      Profile for alfrin     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TMBWITW,PB:
So basically in order to be shielded from snoops I have to quit doing anything that would be worth snooping into?

Kinda like the school policy of "the best way not to get pregnant while having sex is to just not have sex".

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reign99
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Icon 1 posted March 10, 2009 19:34      Profile for reign99     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
____________ TheMoMan Here __ How Many Ways? Can the government or a stalker find you?

OnStar may be built into your car.

GPS may be on your phone.

http://www.techweb.com/article/showArticle?articleID=213201991§ion=News

It is becoming harder to drop out of sight, It is too easy for a gov. agent or a stalker to track your every move.

So if you were getting unwanted attention how easy or hard would it be to shut off all of this?

Kind of blows the (%[email protected]*) out of the Fourth Amendment, except we are setting up 1984 our selves!!

Horrible 1984. Think about how much more information is digitized now. It is infinitely easier to control digitized data, like news stories from the past as in 1984, then it is to deal with hard copy.

We're all doomed. Can we do Brave New World instead? If we're going to be screwed I'd rather be...well...screwed.
[Happytears]

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reign99
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Icon 1 posted March 10, 2009 19:41      Profile for reign99     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
__________________ Back to being tracked, or tailed. __ Please look up TDOA (Time delay on arrival) If you have three or more sensors record an event (radio or audio) the point of origination can be determined with complex math. LINKY

http://urgentcomm.com/mag/radio_tdoa_technology_locating/

Please check the date stamp on in the article.

As hams we use the method during what we call fox hunts. The police in some cities use microphones on utility poles to figure out where shots were fired.


I caught something recently flipping through channels regarding something similar, for use on Humvees in the military. The "Boomerang" which uses seven microphones to detect a sniper bullet passing by, and relay the direction and distance to the shooter to the crew. It's a goofy looking device, but pretty damn cool in its operation.


Boomerang

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reign99
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Icon 1 posted March 11, 2009 09:53      Profile for reign99     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Saw this on CNN today, seems like it fit a little bit with this topic. Their information empire is almost complete! MUHAHA!


The Battle Over Cybersecurity

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