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Author Topic: The Oscar Grant Killing
Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted January 10, 2009 16:35      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This is not for the weak of stomach.

You can see the flash of the gun as the police shoot a handcuffed man in the back. The man, Oscar Grant, was by all witness accounts cooperating with police.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAHjhtYZpX0&feature=related

This is a horrible tragedy. What is worse is how law enforcement officials are trying to create a new truth to hide behind this grisly execution.

CP

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted January 10, 2009 17:50      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
_______________________ Colonel Panic __ I love my country, I fear our Government, Local, State, and Federal Officers have a "I am the bad ass here attitude" This is nothing but out and out MURDER.

Ruby Ridge, Waco, The bridegroom in NY,and now this man in Oakland. why do we need all cops to be armed like a swat team?

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Benjamin Franklin,

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Grummash

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Icon 1 posted January 10, 2009 18:33      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This is sickening, and much harder to justify than the senseless killing of an innocent Brazilian man on the London Underground.

There is controversy in the UK at present regarding UK Police forces adopting Tasers following extensive trial periods.

Whether or not you like the idea of Tasers, it is hard to deny the assertion that this man would have been much more likely to survive an unprovoked attack from a Taser than an unprovoked attack from a regular firearm.

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted January 10, 2009 20:19      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This happened right in my backyard. I haven't watched any of the videos and I don't intend to. The BART police themselves seem to be trying to figure out what happened, but the officer involved is not making himself look any better. Rather than show up for the administrative interview about the incident (which couldn't even have been used in court as it would have been considered privileged) he had his lawyer give them his resignation. That makes it a lot harder for the BART police to conduct a proper investigation because they have no leverage anymore to force him to cooperate.

People around here are pissed. There were riots earlier this week in Oakland about it. The family of the victim is suing. Theories are flying all over the place about what happened. It just seems unfathomable that an officer would deliberately shoot someone in the back who is lying on the ground. One theory goes that he thought he had grabbed his Taser rather than the gun, but even so the man was submitting and on the ground, why on earth would you need to bring out a Taser? Add in the behavior after the incident and the whole thing stinks.

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Snaggy

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Icon 9 posted January 10, 2009 22:45      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've seen the videos (there is a clearer one) and it does look like the officer just pulls his gun out and fires without really thinking, like he thought it was a Taser. He and his fellow officer look at each other for a second like WTF just happened.

Terrible all around. [shake head]

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted January 11, 2009 02:20      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
______________________ Huge Double Standard __ A law officer kills a Citizen, huge uproar and nothing is done. Citizen kills a bad cop, he goes to jail or is killed.

These are only thoughts but some times it seems that the Citizens need to open season on the cops, There was a case in Flushing Mi. of a cop killing a Citizen. Nothing was ever done until an insurance company caught some phony documents signed by said cop.

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Benjamin Franklin,

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted January 11, 2009 06:16      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Badges, power without consequence, justified defiance.

Yep sounds like a cop.

Who knows he may have planned on just bitch slapping the guy with his gun in stead of actually shooting. And, in typical cop fashion, he was gonna do it while two other buddies held him face down.

It is going to be ruled as a justified shooting in a few months anyway. This is how that stuff typically winds up.

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted January 12, 2009 10:07      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This killing bothers me at a number of levels. Right now there are some questions regarding the behavior of the officers that need to be answered.

1. Before the shooting, many people at the scene reported that law enforcement asked that people not record what was going on. And listening to some of the videos bears that out.

Question: If officers have video cameras in their cars to protect themselves and prove crimes, what were the officers doing during this arrest that they did not want recorded? Did they plan a crime? Was the shooting and beating premeditated? If so, then the shooting could be Murder 1.

2. Witnesses reported and recorded that Oscar Grant was cooperating with law enforcement. That is evident to me. Moreover it is evident on the tape that the officers were beating the suspect in an attempt to goad him into resistance.

Question: Why were they beating him when he was not resisting? Were they in fact attempting to provoke the man into resistance?

3. When the man was shot, he was on his belly and he was cuffed. Then he was shot. Some thorize that the officer was reaching for a TASER weapon and made a mistake. This begs a few questions.

Questions: Why TASER a handcuffed man? Is the reason you wanted to TASER him was to torture him? Or did you really intend to shoot him and make it look like an accident?

4. So, the defense may be the officer only intended to TASER the man and made a mistake.

Question: Why did TASER make the product that was easily confused with a pistol? Are they liable for damages? Will TASER have an interest in refuting the confusion claim? Won't such a claim dirty the relationship between TASER and law enforcement.

5. Law enforcement confiscated recording devices and later reported that there was no recording of the crime.

Question: Did law enforcement destroy evidence contained in those devices? Had they confiscated other devices would they have destroyed that evidence?

6. They have not arrested the man who shot Oscar Grant.

Doesn't look like the shooter will be prosecuted, does it?

Of course there are other questions. Is law enforcement behind the times in understanding how citizen-generated news and evidence can quickly reach the masses? Having lied from the outset regarding the facts of the incident, were they satisfied they destroyed all evidence of the crime, and now are huddling to create a new story?

How will the public respond to law enforcement when wrongly arrested, knowing anybody could become the next Oscar Grant?

Viewing this tape, can a citizen shoot a law enforcement officer when being arrested using a self-defense claim?

This is a pickle.

Colonel Panic

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted January 12, 2009 15:10      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
BART answers some frequently asked questions about the case.

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óMiss Piggy

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted January 13, 2009 14:52      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
He was a *BART* police officer and pulled that stunt?! Someone has aspirations of being SFPD (or LAPD)...

Utterly sickening, and my reaction is just based on the commentary & FAQ. I really don't believe such things belong on YouTube - while it may put more facts out there, I think it cheapens the dignity of the deceased to put it out there on a site well known for entertainment. (Especially when content providers can make money off viewings!)

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted January 14, 2009 03:51      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
He was a *BART* police officer and pulled that stunt?! Someone has aspirations of being SFPD (or LAPD)...

Utterly sickening, and my reaction is just based on the commentary & FAQ. I really don't believe such things belong on YouTube - while it may put more facts out there, I think it cheapens the dignity of the deceased to put it out there on a site well known for entertainment. (Especially when content providers can make money off viewings!)

While >I have choosen not to watch these videos, I wonder if things would have come so far so fast with this case if it was not recorded or if these videos were not available through the internet.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted January 14, 2009 04:44      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____________________ Ashitaka __ I have to agree with your question, because it does seem that when such video is available, it is harder for the powers that be, to hide abuses.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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CW Smith
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Icon 1 posted January 14, 2009 07:18      Profile for CW Smith   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Just heard on CBS news that they've arrested the cop in Nevada.

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted January 14, 2009 09:46      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, he's been arrested. The more I read about this the worse it looks. Nevada. They picked him up in Nevada. His lawyers really needed to tell him that quitting his job and fleeing the state makes you look guilty! He can talk about not feeling safe all he wants, but that's a reason to stay home and watch TV all day not to go hundreds of miles away. [shake head]

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted January 14, 2009 09:51      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I lean to agreeing with Mo and Ash, and pointedly disagree with Dragon here.

I think the video has helped elevate the honor and memory of Oscar Grant.

The real dignity killers here were BART and BART officers. Before the tapes showed up on YouTube, law enforcement was saying the standard boilerplate that this guy was a thug an he was resisting to the point that the shooting was justified. In short, "He needed killing."

Once the videos surfaced all the world could see that law enforcement was very wrong. It still appears to me that bald officer seen on the tape was agitated, and intimidating the group of people who were apprehended and cooperating.

While gruesome to watch, the tape showed me that the cops were willfully slandering Oscar with their post-killing statements, and Oscar was obeying.

What has also come to light in statements by more than one witness is that Oscar Grant was pleading for his life before he was shot. He begged, "Please don't shoot me." And then he was shot. Oscar knew what was coming.

If somebody begs for their life, and then that life is taken I think the killer has a tough argument to make that the killing was an accident.

CP

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted January 14, 2009 11:14      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
___________________ Hi ALL __ DAMN, I AM ANGRY. I am torn between putting him in the worst hell hole of a prison and looking the other way, or turning him loose with no supplies out on Isle Royal. However some Indian tribes would tie some one up near a fire ant hill. The Gas Chamber is too kind for this bastard. Maybe the Chair with the Voltage reduced so it takes longer, I despise this bastard, for causing me to have these thoughts.

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Benjamin Franklin,

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted January 14, 2009 11:18      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Video cameras are a cop's worst enemy.

One of my labmates was living in SF during the lead-up and start of the Iraq war. He went to the demonstrations and brought his camera. At one of the demos, he got video of a cop breaking a protester's arm. The protester was then arrested charged with threatening the cop, but she hadn't been threatening the cop at all - she was just holding up a sign. When my labmate learned of this, he handed his video over to her lawyer. The charges were dropped, she sued the SFPD and won. I think the cop lost his job as well. The video ended up on the SF Chronicle website after the case was settled. My labmate showed it to us. It was pretty black and white - the woman was holding up her sign and the cop brought a stick down on her arm.

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted January 14, 2009 12:15      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Video cameras are a cop's worst enemy.

May I propose a change for "Video cameras are a bad cop's worst enemy."? Because after all, video cameras are probably Justice's best ally - especially in this age of "everyone has a video camara on their phones and can upload it without knowing where to start to manipulate the images properly", preventing discreditation on "tampered evidence" basis.

Good cops hope there was a camera around the crime scene; bad cops fear it. Or, more generally, law-abiding citizens can be vindicated on a camera's witness while criminals can be condemn on it.

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted January 14, 2009 14:23      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There are good cops?

Good at what?
Breaking skulls?
Subverting the law to their own benefit?

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted January 14, 2009 14:35      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hey now, the police forces in this country provide a vital service that keeps many, many people safer than they would be otherwise (admittedly, most of those live in well-to-do areas and not the poorer parts of town). That is exactly the reason why abuses of power like this are so disturbing. There are good cops out there, I daresay the vast majority of police officers are more interested in doing their job well than in saving their own butts, and guys like Mehserle make them look bad and should be punished far more severely than a person who committed a similar crime without being in a position of power.

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted January 14, 2009 15:03      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Never met a good cop yet.

Wife beater cops

Drunk cops

Gay and immigrant bashing cops.

So now after 33 years on the planet, I will be pleasantly surprised if I actually met a cop that didn't fit in the mold.

No worries my fiancee says I have issues with cops. And it's true. Never met one I would trust with anything, much less my and mine's safety.

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted January 14, 2009 15:23      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well being the son of a retired state police officer, I have met quite a few good ones. The police officers I have met are all good men and women who would put their lives on the line if need be to protect and serve their community. Personally I think people who abuse the power of the police are lower than scum sucking bottom feeders and the "cop" who committed this attrocity needs become an example of what happens to those who get caught abusing that power.

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Icon 1 posted January 14, 2009 16:37      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I haven't really weighed in on this, because it just doesn't seem to make any sense. I don't see how he could have possibly mistaken his pistol for a taser in a brightly-lit area like that with current-generation taser. He also wasn't particularly rushed, as Grant was pinned by the other officer. It's not like the 2002 incident I mentioned in an older thread, as that one happened at night in an enclosed space with a less well-marked taser. That one was plausible, though still idiotic.

The reactions after the shooting don't seem to make much sense, either. The two cops just stood there and let the other two men stand up, face them, and start yelling at them in one of the longer videos I've seen, as if they had just completely ceded control of the situation. The more I learn about the incident, the more I puzzle over what the hell was going on in that station.

The cop should definitely be charged with manslaughter at the minimum, and more likely murder at this point.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted January 14, 2009 16:47      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Alameda County DA has stated he's going to charge him with murder.

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted January 14, 2009 17:30      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
To quote the DA "What I feel the evidence indicates is an unlawful killing done by an intentional act,"

and ...

"From the evidence we have there's nothing that would mitigate that to something lower than a murder,"

Snaggy suggests the shooter put his hands to his face in surprise. Apparently the DA does not agree. Here's why:

I don't think Snags has shot anything close range, and would not be aware of how blood splatters.

The hands-to-face action may be a reaction to back spatter (scroll down to bottom of page) the back spatter may have been amplified because the force of the forward spatter (blood and body tissue leaving the body in the same direction of the bullet) was contained by the floor the man was laying on, and by the force of the ricochet returning into the body (which punctured Oscar's lung and killed him, according to the coroner).

Simply put, the creep was wiping evidence of his crime from his face.

I agree with Dr. Who. There are good law enforcement officers. And this thug is not one of them. He is a disgrace to the badge. His actions create incredible hostility towards the good officers that are out there. I don't think Mo-Man's reaction is much different than a lot of people's reactions to this -- black or white.

This was a public killing. I think a public execution would be appropriate. Complete with the crowd throwing garbage at the thug as he is lead to the gallows.

On the other hand, Life In Prison would probably not last long for the guy. It would be "Death by Bunga."

CP

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