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Author Topic: The bailout - any suggestions?
DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2008 20:38      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic:
Sell South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana to the Chinese.

quote:
From Louisiana Offshore Oil and Gas Activity:
Eighteen percent of U.S. oil production originates in, is transported through, or is processed in Louisiana coastal wetlands with a value of $6.3 billion a year. Almost 24 percent of U.S. natural gas production originates in or is processed in Louisiana’s coastal wetlands with a value of $10.3 billion a year.

With the current energy crisis are you sure you want to sell off Louisiana to the Chinese? You must be daft.

Yes I know he's not serious, but it still irks me.

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brainisfried
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Icon 1 posted September 30, 2008 06:47      Profile for brainisfried     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Newt Gingrich has it right in his anti-bailout screed here. We should suspend the mark-to-market rule that's forcing banks that could otherwise limp along into bankruptcy. Mark-to-market only works for liquid investments, which these troublesome securities no longer are. The worst lenders would still go under but it'd be manageable. Steve Forbes has harped on this too.

Without the federal (Democrat) creation of quasi-government Freddie and Fannie to both write and buy up massive amounts of mortgages, kick back $millions to Democrats in "contributions", and the subsequent strongarming of banks to lower their lending standards for people perceived to be buyable votes for the Democratic Party OR ELSE, we'd still have had a housing bubble (free markets boom and bust) but it never would have gotten nearly this bad. In retrospect, deregulation aided and abetted this Democrat sabotage of bank internal controls. Deregulation can't work in that environment and Republicans should have predicted it. That doesn't mean that people should vote for Democrats, it just means that we're screwed. Housing prices have to come down to around replacement cost and fighting that will prolong the pain.

As for Bush, he is far too willing to listen to people he's hired who are supposed to be "experts" for far longer than they deserve. Paulson should have never been hired in the first place. I trust anyone senior who's worked for Goldman Sachs about as much as I'd trust a retired Mafia don, especially when most of them are Democrats (Rubin, Corzine, etc). Bush, our MBA president, is a manager more than a leader. A better leader wouldn't wait so long to replace floundering underlings (Paulson, the early Iraq War generals, etc).

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 30, 2008 07:04      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
_________________ de TheMoMan __ Actually there are two problems the housing one and derivatives on the stock market. these two together. Plus, put and take orders and the market becomes a casino.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 30, 2008 13:04      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by brainisfried:
Newt Gingrich has it right in his anti-bailout screed here.

Thank you brainisfried, for providing a neat illustration of why nibbler is totally wrong.

Gingrich's solution to the problem, deregulation.

Suspend the mark-to-market rule, which insists that assets be listed at their true present value.
Repeal the Sarbanes-Oxley law, which outlaws the kind of accounting abuses that led to the Enron collapse.
Cut taxes. (is there any problem that can't be solved by a big tax cut?)

That's the attitude that caused the Republican majority on the congressional committee to look the other way in 2004, not some mythical cover-up conspiracy from the Democratic minority.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 30, 2008 17:41      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
_______________ de TheMoMan __ This credit thing is huge, now banks in England, France, and Germany are looking for White Knights to bail them out. Mean while the clowns here want to relax accounting rules, I say tighten them, do away with derivatives just like they did with margins in the Thirties. The poor and the middle class are being used as pawns.

Are we expendable?

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted September 30, 2008 18:33      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TheMoMan wrote:
The poor and the middle class are being used as pawns.

Are we expendable?


No... but we are exploitable. Like any resource, however, over-exploitation depletes and eventually destroys it.

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nibbler
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Icon 1 posted September 30, 2008 18:59      Profile for nibbler   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
how 'bout this?

"the Jubilee Certificate"-

Create a housing/mortgage coupon in a fixed amount (maybe $50,000) and mail them to the same mailing list as the stimulus checks. Those that have mortgages would submit it to their lender as a principle pay down and recalculate payments on the remaining balance at a fixed rate of interest. -Saving the troubled mortgages.

Renters would be able to realize their credit by submitting the coupon at a real estate closing and obtain their credit pay down at that point. These people may also qualify for the first time home buyer credit. -Increasing home ownership.

Both things would see middle and lower class people have smaller bills. - More consumption at the retail level.

The evil banks wouldn't realize the full value of their bad mortgage decisions (even though fed law made them make a certain percentage of them) but would still have income and be able to recover.

The coupons would accumulate at the banks. They could be redeemed into treasury bills in an orderly fashion or converted to something useful such as marketable tax credits for the investors.

It would be a heck of a lot better than dumping truckloads of cash down the banking sewer.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 30, 2008 19:01      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So, anyone want to take bets on when the Chinese will step in and buy most of the western banks?

They've got very deep pockets at the moment, a strong interest in keeping the western economies afloat, and I'm sure they'd just love to see all those western leaders squirm.

--------------------
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brainisfried
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Icon 1 posted September 30, 2008 19:07      Profile for brainisfried     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by brainisfried:
Newt Gingrich has it right in his anti-bailout screed here.

Thank you brainisfried, for providing a neat illustration of why nibbler is totally wrong.

Gingrich's solution to the problem, deregulation.

Suspend the mark-to-market rule, which insists that assets be listed at their true present value.
Repeal the Sarbanes-Oxley law, which outlaws the kind of accounting abuses that led to the Enron collapse.
Cut taxes. (is there any problem that can't be solved by a big tax cut?)

That's the attitude that caused the Republican majority on the congressional committee to look the other way in 2004, not some mythical cover-up conspiracy from the Democratic minority.

Mark-to-market only works when there is a market, or at least a reasonably liquid one. Treating them as hold-to-maturity for now and deciding on a time-averaged method later would be far more sane than forcing banks to dump assets into a frozen market, unless your goal is to create chaos and scoop up assets at fire-sale prices. I wouldn't put that past Goldman Sachs.

Sarbanes-Oxley is a jobs program for the accounting industry. Total waste of time.

Tax cuts are very helpful when small businesses are starved for cash because the credit markets are frozen, among other reasons. Besides, businesses are merely tax collectors.

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted September 30, 2008 19:46      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorWho:
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic:
Sell South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana to the Chinese.

quote:
From Louisiana Offshore Oil and Gas Activity:
Eighteen percent of U.S. oil production originates in, is transported through, or is processed in Louisiana coastal wetlands with a value of $6.3 billion a year. Almost 24 percent of U.S. natural gas production originates in or is processed in Louisiana’s coastal wetlands with a value of $10.3 billion a year.

With the current energy crisis are you sure you want to sell off Louisiana to the Chinese? You must be daft.

Yes I know he's not serious, but it still irks me.

Well lookee here, Who,

It does make sense.

Right now, IKE took out all the oil production in that area, but it also took out oil distribution and consumption, didn't it?

Right now, gas is cheaper than it has been in a long time. Why? The south ain't burnin' gas the way it used to, that's why!

With your redneck sport of NASCAR, and people driving down the highway like NASCAR, and the gas guzzling redneck trucks with tires 12-feet tall and big-stack pipes pretending they are Semi Tractors, and the other trucks with stars and bars in the back window, or pissin' little boys, and General Lee cars -- you're guzzling more gas than you take in. True Fact!

HalfVast proposed selling Alaska to the Rooskies, right? But negotiations have stalled.

One thing, as John McCain and Sarah Palin tell us, Alaska produces 20% of our energy, only they barely have the population of Memphis. And they don't have NASCAR, they have dog sleds. They burn Iams Eukanuba!

So it would be a good deal for the Rooskies, only the Rooskies want us to keep Sara Palin. Plus they are demanding boxed DVD sets of "Ice Road Truckers" and "World's Deadliest Catch". That is a deal breaker! Those DVDs are worth lots more than a few million rednecks!

You just gotta do the math, dude.

I thought this out real good. If we sell dixie to China, then we'll just export our jobs south, instead of Asia!

Good deal, huh?

CP

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2008 01:18      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am very entertained to see this pair of hard core right wing republicans describe the US financial system as a "sewer" and "evil", and the appropriately named brainisfried's assumption that Goldman Sachs, and by implication Wall Street is awash with devious liberals. Small clue brainisfried, despite the myths peddled by the right, unsurprisingly the rich vote Republican. Fact.

Karl Marx would be proud of both of you.

I can quite understand why the pair of you want to spend so much time in a futile effort to pin the blame on some secret liberal cabal working to undermine the system, because there is no solution to this crisis in your Adam Smith for Dummies play book. Please remember though that the Republican (so you just might take what he says seriously) former chairman of the House Financial Services committee thinks that the buck stops quite decisively in the White House.

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2008 09:37      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
So, anyone want to take bets on when the Chinese will step in and buy most of the western banks?

They've got very deep pockets at the moment, a strong interest in keeping the western economies afloat, and I'm sure they'd just love to see all those western leaders squirm.

I understand Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao is scheduled to make a speech in the New York City financial district where he is expected to say, "Mr. Bush, tear down this Wall Street!" as a way to signify the communist defeat of capitalism.

CP

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brainisfried
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2008 09:39      Profile for brainisfried     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
A 53-45% split in the $200K+ bracket is hardly overwhelming, and I'd really like to see the breakdown when you remove small business owners who overwhelmingly pay their business taxes on their personal returns and overwhelmingly vote Republican.

Oxley created the Sarbanes-Oxley monstrosity so his opinion means diddly to me. Ohio, figures. Bush was right, Fannie and Freddie should have been broken up and privatized.

Goldman Sachs is the top investment bank and they're a majority Democrat shop. Notice how New York, finance capital of the world (for now), is a very blue state and even bluer city? See many Republicans in the Upper West Side?

I'm far from excusing Republicans of incompetence though. Fed and Treasury policy has been abysmal and both heads are Bush nominees. The reckless spending growth cheerleaded by Bush has far outstripped the increased income tax revenue generated by his tax rate cuts. But I can rely on people like you to point those things out so why should I?

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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2008 09:56      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well calli and CP from the chatter I have been hearing the chinese are hunkering down see the article from reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSPEK16693720080925

No more lending/investing in us banks. This is huge if true.

So much of this crap is overseas on other's books. Greed overwhelmed basic self-interest and long-term well being. DO NOT DESTROY the ones who buy your stuff. Toxic crap was invested in by foreign pension funds, banks, PE.

NOw the bill is coming due.

That is the thinkg about this bailout, now it allows treasury to bailout foreing IB's. Sure it has to be a susidiary headquartered in usa, but nothing stops a parent bank from dumping all the toxic crap onto the usa subsidiary and then turning around and bellying up to the trough as well.

I wonder how many calls stutterin' paul got from overseas?

Soooo paul, pauly, paullo, we hear some rumblings that you are gonna cave and start bailing. We're on your list, right pauly o' pal? What? We aren't? wow, we must be having a misunderstanding due to language difficulties, since of course we would immediately dump whatever dollar assets we have and set off a forex bomb, what? good gooooood, all cleared up. See ya at the trough pally.

Yup yup. No wonder schumer had to carry/drag stutterin hank around for that talk. hehehe

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2008 10:58      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
_________________ Back during "Bush I" Sony and other companies from Japan bought a lot of US real estate only to its value fall. The Chinese appear to have watched the prior action and do not plan on putting money into the pit.

My 401K is now a K, the teller at the credit union is in the same boat she watched her savings go away.

I am caught between wanting someone to man the pumps, or shooting the person that starts pumping.

de TheMoMan is now going QRT sk sk

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2008 12:19      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
um, shoot em all? hahaha. sorry, i am so NOT funny.

One of thsoe things that if you bail, you reward the behaviour that caused it in the first place, but if you dont the people with 401's will suffer?

I dont know. All that buy and hold pap is going to hurt. Part of it is demographics. Figure the boomers are a very large cohort. while they were in peak earning years and saving for retirment, the prices of equities rose, just from the amt. of people buying in. Now that the leading edge of the boomer gen is counting on that retirement, the prices would naturally start decreasing since there technically would be less people buying, and more selling. Add in this clusternugget, and it is going to be incredibly painful. If it takes 10-25 years to recover the value lost in a portfolio, what will that do to peoples plans who were retiring now and soon?

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2008 13:21      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by YaYawoman:
One of thsoe things that if you bail, you reward the behaviour that caused it in the first place, but if you dont the people with 401's will suffer?

It's more than peoples pension funds that will suffer.

I've seen what happens when a bank goes bust, back in the early 90's, a small local bank lent far too much to a single commercial borrower who went bust, taking the bank down with it. The effect on the local economy was devastating, so many of my friends were out of work we organized twice-weekly games days, just to keep our spirits up.

Oh, and a state government rescue attempt bit off more than they could chew, which sent the state owned bank broke (they were forced into a "shotgun wedding" with a bigger bank) and made everything worse, so I'm wary of ill-conceived rescue efforts as well.

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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2008 20:42      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
hi TFD. The financial crunch is going to filter through everyone's life in many many variable ways. some will be so surprising that many will not see them coming, some will be throroughly anticipated. It wont just be retirement, but living arrangements, jobs, joblessnes, bk's, water and sewer, police and fire protection, and even from the bailout bill itself and on and on and on.

this Bloomber link i am posting below mentions the repeal of taxes on arrows made for children
that was slipped into this bill sums up.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aKd0vyGN8L2k

hahahah so i guess we can start calling it the Shaft America plan of 08. damn pols.

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DoctorWho

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Icon 2 posted October 02, 2008 14:52      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic:
Right now, IKE took out all the oil production in that area, but it also took out oil distribution and consumption, didn't it?

Oil distribution from the Louisiana Offshore Oil Port (LOOP) went down from Sept. 1st to the 5th so it wasn't down that long. We imported more oil to make up the difference. Which means more money left the U.S.

quote:
Right now, gas is cheaper than it has been in a long time. Why? The south ain't burnin' gas the way it used to, that's why!
Actually we probably burned the same amount of gas after Gustav because we had to operate our generators to power our houses so those people who stayed probably made up the difference.

quote:
With your redneck sport of NASCAR, and people driving down the highway like NASCAR, and the gas guzzling redneck trucks with tires 12-feet tall and big-stack pipes pretending they are Semi Tractors, and the other trucks with stars and bars in the back window, or pissin' little boys, and General Lee cars -- you're guzzling more gas than you take in. True Fact!
Well I can't speak for everyone, but I see more economy cars where I live than over sized cars like Hummers, vans, and SUV's. Personally I drive a Honda Fit and I can't stand NASCAR. What the hell kind of sport is that! Grown men going round in a circle for crying out loud. Oh look they're making a left turn! Oh look they're making another left turn! Oh look they're making another left turn!! Oh I wonder what's going to happen next!? Come back in 20 minutes and you won't miss a farking thing! {with respect to Jeff Dunham}

quote:
You just gotta do the math, dude.
Do you realize that over 50% of the nation's oil comes through a pipeline (LOOP) that starts in Louisiana and goes right through Mississippi?

quote:
I thought this out real good.


[Roll Eyes] Yeah, it's brilliant

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted October 04, 2008 13:17      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I suggest a bail out for Mo_Man's 401k, heck mine could use some help, too.

CP

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 04, 2008 13:53      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
_________________ Thank You CP Thank You, I appreciate the thoughts.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 05, 2008 03:43      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
__________________ Oh Great Pumpkin __ Now it seems that some of these troubled paper houses don't want the money because of the strings attached. Its a case of give us a loan but leave us alone.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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GrumpySteen

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I'd be happier if the strings attached were 1/2" thick and formed into nooses...

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 05, 2008 09:28      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
_________________ GrumpySteen __ Didn't they hang horse thieves, I think this is far worse, they have stolen peoples dreams.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Stereo

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Icon 12 posted October 06, 2008 07:27      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
(Nothing much here, just a personnal thing that jumped at me this morning.)

Well, in the light of the recent events and stocks' plunges, I can say that procrastination can pay. Although I regularly contribute to my registered retirement fund, I also add around 2K around the limit allowed for deduction on that year's taxes. Well, this year, I delayed it until the very limit, so to save time, that additional amount was placed in a RSP bank account, and I didn't bother switching it to a stock fund yet. So although it gathered very little interest, it was unaffected by the stock exchanges' dive. Once things settles down a bit, I'll transfer the money into the undervalued stocks, and see it soar once things go back to normal. (I must say that my other funds will probably have lost quite a bit, but since I'm still over 20 years from retiring, they'll have time to recover.)

So: yay for procrastinating.

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