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Author Topic: You got an uncle in the insurance business ...
Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted September 16, 2008 16:41      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If you are an American, it's your Uncle Same!

$85-Billion Bailout to save ka-jillionaires!

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/17/business/17insure.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

That's $85-Billion in a nation that can't afford to supply its troops in battle, can't aford to take care of them when they are wounded, and can't afford to take care of its veterans.

What's a $500-billion deficit if you can't add $85-billion more to it?

Got any more of these Republican trolls ready to lecture us on the glories of leaving private enterprise alone? Those lies will do until the next big whopper comes along.

CP

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 16, 2008 23:44      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ouch.

$200 billion here, $85 billion there, pretty soon it adds up to real money.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 17, 2008 03:54      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____________________ C.P. Oh I caught your reference, a long time ago. I'm glad I know because it forces me to look at your frame of reference more closely.

You got an uncle in a lot of shady business.

At one time a Topless bar in Flint,Mi was being run by the IRS, Owner failed to pay his taxes.

All of these Banks that are close to failure, and now an insurance Company,

Isn't that what third world countries do Nationalize there industry's, so maybe Castro and the guy in Peru were only teaching us a value lesson.

Now the biggy would a company operating in a foreign country, still get taxes breaks if it became nationalized in that country. would they still get tax credits for off shore workers?

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Icon 1 posted September 17, 2008 11:08      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, I must say that I am biased about this because my retirement from my work is set up through AIG. So Uncle Sam is not just bailing out the rich here. He's also saving quite a few hard earned retirement funds.

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted September 18, 2008 05:24      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This is funny --

Tome Toles cartoon in Washington post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinions/cartoonsandvideos/toles_main.html?name=Toles&date=09182008&type=c?hpid=opinionsbox1

CP

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nibbler
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Icon 1 posted September 18, 2008 08:58      Profile for nibbler   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Once again you making the mistake of assigning the name "Republican" to those of us conservatives and Libertarians who know the Republicans are not the ideal. They are a better choice than Democrats, though.

I don't appreciate my tax dollars going to bail out crooked execs any more than I do having my tax dollars go to support people who won't live off their own work.

Any Gov'y Bailout should go hand in hand with prison sentences for the scum that breached the trust of their customers and stockholders.

Ans once again, McCain has been saying this for years.

Obama was the received the second greatest amount of campaign donations from Fanny/Freddie.

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tweety
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Icon 1 posted September 18, 2008 10:52      Profile for tweety   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
<taking a deep breath>

nibbler – Do you know any history? Do you understand the major factors that led to the Great Depression? Do you know why the current SEC, FDIC and other federal level financial laws and oversight committees exist? I hope you do. Sure, I'm not big on billions of dollars being poured into institutions just to save them. Except, the problem is bigger than 2 or 3 of Wall Streets biggest going under. This is a global economic issue. Understand that, and you'll begin to see the importance of taxpayer dollars being utilized to keep these guys afloat.

Now, regarding your statement:
quote:
I don't appreciate my tax dollars going to bail out crooked execs any more than I do having my tax dollars go to support people who won't live off their own work.
Specifically, the part about "people who won't live off their own work"; what if someone were trying to live off their own work but couldn't? What then? I ask as what you said comes across as a mighty big blanket of a statement and I wish for clarification.

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Stereo

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Icon 8 posted September 18, 2008 10:56      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nibbler:
(...) to support people who won't live off their own work.

There are people who can't live off their own work because they are sick. Or they had an accident that left them unable to work. Or were so overworked (when not overexploited) that they had a major burn-out and can't work anymore (for a few months or forever - mental illness can't be easily cured). Or they were born with a disability, physical or mental, and can't find an employer willing to giving them a chance. Are they to blame, and left to die on the street?

And then, there are the hard-working people who didn't get the chance to get a higher education (in the US, many poor people can't afford a good diploma). So they are left toiling long hours for an underpaid job that doesn't give them access to medical insurance.

Not enough yet? There are the artists, either before they get famous and win bazillion dollars, or those that, no matter how good they are, and how hard they work, won't get famous and will have to make do with little money. And unable to survive on their own if the slightest bad luck falls onto them.

So, basically, you are saying that the society you want is one where the poors stays poor, die of easily treatable illnesses and get to beg on the streets when their employer "downsizes" them. Even those who are sweeping your nice office floor or entertaining you after a hard day's work. All that just because they're not making enough money to get better education or have access to medical assistance, and that you think a social net is a waste of your hard-earned money.

Well, I have a word for that but you probably don't want to read it.

I know there are some people who don't want to earn their living. Just as there are high executives who will steal money from their companies and/or clients. It doesn't mean all high executives are criminals, so don't treat all the poors as social leeches. Ignoring social costs is just like ignoring environmental costs. You can do it, but you'll still have to pay for it down the road, one way or another.

(I can consider myself lucky: even if born second of five in a middle-class single-income family, my society decided that higher education shouldn't be restricted to those who can pay. So I now have a good diploma, a well paying job, and I am happy to pay my taxes so others can have the same chance I had, and help those who aren't as lucky.)

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Galileo Galilei

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tweety
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Icon 1 posted September 18, 2008 11:55      Profile for tweety   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Stereo – What you replied above is exactly why I posed the question to nibbler. But, you did miss one group. The people who work for years trying to launch a business, either off their own innovation or just a simple resale type business, and for whatever reasons can't make a go of it. Or, there are those who do have successful businesses, family businesses, and one day they get whacked by some totally unforeseen event, say like gas prices rising from an average of $2/gallon to $4/gallon in less than a year. What do they do then? Can they get a "real" job in corporate America, or will they be denied access because while they've run their own business, it's too small, or they haven't kept up with all the latest buzz words. Who needs to when you have your own business.

I once saw an article that proclaimed that 80% of all American businesses are considered small businesses. So, if we have an economic climate in this country such as what we experienced during the Great Depression, what's going to happen to that 80% of American business? The only reason the US was able to finally climb out the Depression was because of our involvement in WW II and our need for a wartime economy.

nibbler and his ilk fail to see anything for what it is. They feel better proclaiming the world is black and white and if that person, or that other person would just get off their lazy arse then they too could become wealthy doctors or lawyers. They fail to see the nuance of bigotry, sexism, ageism. They fail to see that there are a tremendous amount of poor people who do work hard for a better life, but can never seem to make it happen. Whose fault is it? Theirs? Societies? The government? In most cases, none of the above, it just is what it is. But, as a society, as a modern society we must always choose to help those in need. Not so that the lazy can continue to be lazy, so that we can, as a whole, grow, evolve, reach better and better living conditions.

That's a very positive thought. Unfortunately, conservatism and libertarianism seem to be breeding negativity as of late.

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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted September 18, 2008 19:28      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
no bailouts. not for underwater homeowners, not for ceo's with golden parachutes and exit bonuses, not for the fraudsters, not for the sheep.

It is funny to me. When japan was facing their deflationary issues and zombie banks and bad debts that would remain uncollectable the US got on its high horse and gave very good yet very condescending advice.

liquidate, liquidate, liquidate.

Let the bad debts default, write them down, and let the zombie banks die. As painfull and dislocating in short term, better in long term. hahahahahaha i say they eat their own long-gone advice.

This is not bad bets in a free market, this was logical bets made in a rigged market but the music stopped before the crap was unloaded on the pensionplans, the 401ks and the municipalities. Now they want the taxpayers to shoulder it directly, and most of them will be swayed with the argument of too big to fail, or OMG end of the financial world. let it reset. re-instae the regulatory laws that were inplace to prevent another depression (glass-steagall anyone?) require no more level 3 accounting, require total transparency. oy

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted September 19, 2008 02:56      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
To Chesty ASM and their ilk there is no problem that is not susceptible to a simple brutal solution. You cannot argue with them because their tunnel vision eliminates any part of the picture that does not accord with their world view, which appears to be formed by an intellectual diet consisting only of Arnold Schwarzenegger films, superhero comics, and FPS computer games. It is said that the movement conservatives want to take America back to the pre FDR era called "gilded age", so notably chronicled in the writings of John Steinbeck. After all what's the point of the poor if you can't grind their faces into the dirt? I suspect that to Chesty and ASM this is still far too wussy, they would prefer a society modelled on ancient Sparta, run by a military elite, based on slavery and constantly at war.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 19, 2008 03:58      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
_________________Callipygous __ de TheMoMan I know that watching from afar has helped you see this coming. At the end of Bill Clintons term the National debt was being paid down the budgets were balanced. Now unless Bill cooked the books how did the scrub urinate away all that money. The size of this mess is enough to bring down all but China, and only because they are a closed society.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted September 20, 2008 08:57      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well the price tag has gone up -- it's now $700-Billion for the buyout of bad mortgages.

In a nation of 300-million people, that's a $2,350 bill for every man, woman and child in the country. Of course every man, woman and child in the country doesn't pay taxes. So your bill will be higher than that. That is the cost to you of Republican de-regulation.


OR

The US economy will collapse and chaos will ensue.

This is a cost -- along with a stupid war -- that I predicted would happen in a Bush economy. We have it now.

When we see that we came within days of total economic collapse of the US and international financial systems, then we can understand that neo-conservatism and trickle-down economics is nothing less than a form of domestic terrorism.

Bush and his buddies came close to re-establishing a feudal state in the USA. They are enemies of the American way of life.

I would like to know how many people will be held accountable for these preventable errors, how many people will go to jail?

With Bush in power, and Republicans pushing for McCain/Palin, the answer is nobody will pay except hard-working Americans.

CP

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 20, 2008 11:05      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
______________ Colonel Panic de TheMoMan __ The best question is are you better off than Eight years ago? I had manure loads of money in IRAs PSP (401)k now (201) I have been retired for four years and used up 20% of my savings. I hope it holds out for the MrsMoMan.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted September 20, 2008 11:06      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by tweety:
Stereo – What you replied above is exactly why I posed the question to nibbler. But, you did miss one group. The people who work for years trying to launch a business, either off their own innovation or just a simple resale type business, and for whatever reasons can't make a go of it. [snipped for concision]

You're right. I had forgotten them.

And you know what strikes me as pure stupidity in all this? This whole economic crisis was created because major investors were looking for a lot of growth (over 8%, when more secure investments were getting them 2-3%). So they looked around, and saw that mortgages gave that kind of yearly interests, and though they were not that dangerous because backed by real estate. So they went all gaga over mortgages.

On the other hand, (almost) nobody lends money to the business starters. Even though a successful start-up can bring in anywhere between 40% to 10,000% return, they are too dangerous as they may get nothing: 4 out of 5 usually go under within the first 5 years.

But with what we can see now, one could wonder: wouldn't have it been safer (and better) if they had done with first investment funds what they did with mortgages? That is, group a lot of investments, then share them? 4 out of 5 will bring out 0. 1 out of 10 will bring around 40-100%. And the rest will bring out the big money (let's say an average of 400%). I'm sure they could have come out with a good investment ratio. Much better than this mess. (Please note: the numbers I used are from memory, from a course taken a long time ago; but they should still be pretty much valid.) The economy would have been strengthened by all the successful ones creating jobs and profits, rather than weakened by lowering people's value/debt ratio (remember: the lower the ratio, the more vulnerable you are).

Conclusion: big investors will go for an illusion of safety rather than take the more hazardous one of real investments to hard working visionaries.

Well, I have a little word of personal wisdom for the money "moguls": I prefer the hard-looking path over the easy-looking one, because on the former, the dangers are out in plain sight.

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Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted September 20, 2008 21:59      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
______________ Colonel Panic de TheMoMan __ The best question is are you better off than Eight years ago? I had manure loads of money in IRAs PSP (401)k now (201) I have been retired for four years and used up 20% of my savings. I hope it holds out for the MrsMoMan.

MoMan,

I should be a lot better off, but not in this economy.

It's awful to see how these thieves in Washington and on Wall Street are teaming up to steal your retirement. It should be a crime, but that would be "regulation".

At least the incredibly rich are better off. Hey the guy who ran Lehman Brothers into the ground made $37-million in 2007!

Good thing he got a big tax break from the Republicans, huh?

Last thing we need in this country is a tax code that taxes the wealthy people making the bad decisions that are destroying America.

CP

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted September 20, 2008 22:11      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
America. The country where there is no money for bridges or health care but plenty for fighting wars and bailing out rich people. :roll:

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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nibbler
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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2008 01:42      Profile for nibbler   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Federal money - not counting state funds for bridges was over 5 billion last year.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2008 03:14      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____________________ de TheMoMan ____ Five Billion, poop that is less than 0.5% of what is planed to fix the banks, and the roads and bridges are in worse shape. Have you ever heard of deferred maintainance, fix it only when its broke, seems to be the policy of Governments.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2008 06:48      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mo Man,

I was thinking about how lucky you'd be if John McCain had gotten his way and privatized social security.

CP

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ASM65816
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Icon 2 posted September 21, 2008 15:10      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
September 20, 2008, 22:11
America. The country where there is no money for ... health care

September 03, 2008, 03:45 from "Mc Cain Picks Running Mate"
The point of the McKinsey report is that the US spends a lot more than other OECD countries for outcomes that are no better and often worse than theirs.

Why do "Liberals" think the best arguments are the ones that violate fundamental math principles?

"Spend a lot more" absolutely cannot be "no money" (referring to health care). The ("Liberal") statements above are contradictory.
 

quote:
September 20, 2008, 11:06
Well, I have a little word of personal wisdom for the money "moguls": I prefer the hard-looking path over the easy-looking one

Originally posted by ASM from "Mc Cain Picks Running Mate":
Why does "everyone" believe that "spend more money" is the first step in fixing the US health care system?
Why is it that reducing health care costs by reducing "government waste" is not the first step in improving the US health care system?

Applying your "personal wisdom" to Health Care: Is "spend more money" the "easy-looking" solution?

What kind of solution (easy/hard) is "reduce government waste" (including losses from fraud)?
 

quote:
September 19, 2008, 02:56
To ... ASM and their ilk ... <snip> <derogatory remarks> <snip>

"Name-calling" (smear tactics) seem to be the most popular method of argument for "Liberals" -- probably because it's the method which has little or nothing in common with math and logic.

"You" loved George Carlin, all of his attacks on Christianity, and how his observations were "so true." Unfortunately, you're hypocrites.
quote:
Liberal Dictionary:

racist (n.) - Anyone that criticizes Islam with methods based in Atheism, like the way George Carlin attacked Christianity.

While we're talking about hypocrisy....
quote:
September 19, 2008, 02:56
After all what's the point of the poor if you can't grind their faces into the dirt? ... they would prefer a society ... based on slavery

Where's your criticism of China? Where's your criticism of North Korea? Do you actually think their workers have better wages, rights, and benefits than Americans?

Do you think Mexicans risk death crossing the border to the US because: Workers get paid TOO Much in Mexico? Workers have TOO Many Rights in Mexico? Workers have health and retirement Benefits that are TOO Good in Mexico?
 

quote:
September 19, 2008, 02:56
I suspect that to ... ASM ... they would prefer a society <snip> <derogatory remarks> <snip>

You've admitted to "not reading" my posts. You treat $100,000 as "nothing" when I used an example to criticize US health care getting less value per money spent. You are among the hypocrites that seem to think "Atheism" is about hating Christians while believing any other religion is "good and sensible", just as it is "good and sensible" to believe all religions are false (more self-contradiction). The more I observe the behavior of "Liberals", the more the following observation by Bertrand Russell makes sense:
quote:
A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.
    -- Bertrand Russell

Basically, you can't (or refuse to) accept math based criticisms of what you believe (as per the "stupid man"); therefore, you distort and butcher them with "____ BELIEVES _____" (an inaccurate report what was actually said). Note: This applies to a "handful" of GC Members, not just one person.
 

I know "you" want to say "ASM you're stupid for not understanding _____", so I'll give you my rebuttal now.

I'm sorry, but I do understand "Liberal" ideas, and they tend to fall like houses of cards when subjected to:
  1. The Ethic of Reciprocity (aka. Golden Rule): "Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself." - Confucius
     
  2. Numerical Analysis: "Liberals" love to say "both are the same" because they feel representing everything in BOOLEAN is as valid as "real number" representation.


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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2008 15:17      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Get back in your cage. Please.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2008 15:35      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic:
Mo Man,

I was thinking about how lucky you'd be if John McCain had gotten his way and privatized social security.

CP

Lucky doesn't begin to describe it.

McCain despite having little interest in economics, has some simply terrific plans even now. For example in the September/October edition of "Contingencies" the magazine of the American Academy of Actuaries he writes of his exciting plans for market based health reforms and says
quote:
Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation.
What a thrilling prospect! A health insurance industry that is as innovative, and performs as well as the financial sector. That's sure to benefit everyone.

Go Palin/McCain! [devil wand] [Big Grin]

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2008 16:22      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Now it appears the Republicans want to have the American taxpayer pay for the golden parachutes of the executives of the failed companies, and they want no strings on the money -- these thieves want the American taxpayer to take it up the backside.

INCREDIBLE! The largest taxpayer-financed giveaway to the wealthy ever.

There are no depths to the American conservative movement. No shame. No honesty. No morals. No clue.

CP

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Colonel Panic
BlabberMouth, the Next Generation
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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2008 16:27      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
[QUOTE]
McCain despite having little interest in economics, has some simply terrific plans even now. For example in the September/October edition of "Contingencies" the magazine of the American Academy of Actuaries he writes of his exciting plans for market based health reforms and says,

"Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation."

What a thrilling prospect! A health insurance industry that is as innovative, and performs as well as the financial sector. That's sure to benefit everyone.

Well, everyone that counts. The poor, and soon the middle class, will be good for transplant stock for the wealthy -- once again it will cost an arm and a leg.

Eventually, Soylent Green will be poor people, and middle-class people.

CP

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