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Author Topic: IS THERE A DOUBLE STANDARD?
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 10, 2008 13:13      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
______________________ Well, Well, Well IS there a double standard in the quad-yearly fight between the Dems/GOP. Seems that a statement made by John boy, about a Hillary proposal, draws fire when it comes back from Obama. Plus I think that Mz Palin invited the attack with her comments about Hockey Moms, and pit bulls. Maybe we should ask Mike Vick?

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Benjamin Franklin,

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Icon 1 posted September 10, 2008 15:41      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's blatantly obvious that Obama's "lipstick on a pig" had nothing to do with Palin, so I don't blame Obama for getting annoyed at the fake outrage.

I think the only thing missing is for photoshopped pictures of Palin as a lipsticked pig to start floating around the internet. If they want to make such a big deal out of nothing, why shouldn't there be something for them to get actually outraged about? Or am I wrong? Maybe the real lipsticked pig is McCain after all?

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted September 10, 2008 16:38      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I believe there is a story about sexism in this election, but it's nothing that either side can feel self righteous about. Both Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin have faced questions that would have been greeted with derision if put to a male candidate, and personally I found it quite shocking and depressing in both instances. The Republican shouts of foul in Sarah Palin's case have however been picked up and treated seriously by the media which is sympathetic to them, and which dismissed Hillary's complaints as whining, sour grapes and evidence of her unfitness for office. Double standards are par for the course in an election.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 10, 2008 17:45      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
___________________ On the topic of Hockey Moms, A Biker Buddy, I mean we have done thousands of miles of road pounding together. Well both his sons got into youth hockey and then school hockey. When you go to these kids games watch the dads they are taking notes on how to improve their kids game, the Moms are worse than rabid dogs. They would not let one mom bring in a boat horn, she was ready to fight the management of the arena.

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Benjamin Franklin,

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 11, 2008 04:25      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
_________________ Back to the original topic.

____ What the hell is this [email protected]#$#@%^&&&$* woman doing giving away troop movements. During WW2 That kind of BS could get you tried for treason, I guess she can't keep a SECRET.


____ Loose lips sink ships. Dumb [email protected]#$#@%^&&&$*

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Benjamin Franklin,

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Icon 2 posted September 11, 2008 15:56      Profile for shentzu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
hypocrisies?!?!?!? this is the GOP!!!!ELEVENTYONE!!1!!

if you haven't seen a trend in the 10 house owning man who calls his opponent elitist, or the son of a president who runs as an outsider, or the party of oppression of women complaining about sexism, or the party of racism complaining about the race card, or the party that had special purple heart band-aids to mock a wounded war hero so they could vote for one the next year, or the party that declares that their theme is service so they can make fun of community service, or the party where a man can use someone else's sex life for gain while leaving his 3rd wife on her deathbed, or the party that campaigns on anti-gay platforms right up until they are caught having gay sex, or.....

lets face it, i could go on ALL DAY and still not have to reach back to before 1995.

ethics, honor, and morality are not their "do best" k?

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nibbler
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Icon 1 posted September 11, 2008 17:54      Profile for nibbler   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
well if we are trying to point out inconsistencies as a party, and not individuals who misbehave, Lets look at a party whose mantra is "tax the rich, they don't pay enough". How many multi-millionaire democratic congressman and senators hire tax attorneys and CPAs to avoid paying "too much" tax? Why doesn't Obama and his wife give a little extra in taxes since they make several million dollars a year?

If they really believed that the rich should pay more, why don't they?

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted September 11, 2008 20:44      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
nibbler wrote:
Why doesn't Obama and his wife give a little extra in taxes since they make several million dollars a year?

You're apparently unaware of how our tax structure works...

Income up to $8,025 is taxed at 10%.
From $8,026 to $32,550 is taxed at 15%.
From $32,551 up to $78,850 is taxed at 25%.
From $78,851 to $164,550 is taxed at 28%.
Anything over $164,550 is taxed at 33%.

And before you claim that Obama has dodged paying all those taxes, go look at his tax return numbers

The point being... our tax structure is set up so that people that make a lot of money do, in fact, pay a little more if they aren't cheating the system.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 11, 2008 21:02      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nibbler:
Lets look at a party whose mantra is "tax the rich, they don't pay enough"...

...If they really believed that the rich should pay more, why don't they?

<bad-maxwell-smart-impression>
Ah, the old "build an extreme parody of the other guy's position, then call him a hypocrite for not conforming with it" trick, that's the third time I've fallen for it this week.
</bad-maxwell-smart-impression>

btw - if you have a look at the 2006 tax details Steen linked to, you'll see the Obamas gave over $5,000 per month to charities in 2006, that could be seen as voluntarily "paying more tax".

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted September 12, 2008 04:13      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nibbler:
well if we are trying to point out inconsistencies as a party, and not individuals who misbehave, Lets look at a party whose mantra is "tax the rich, they don't pay enough". How many multi-millionaire democratic congressman and senators hire tax attorneys and CPAs to avoid paying "too much" tax? Why doesn't Obama and his wife give a little extra in taxes since they make several million dollars a year?

If they really believed that the rich should pay more, why don't they?

Hello nibbler, whatever happened to your former id "chesty"?

Your post certainly makes me feel fear for that oppressed and suffering minority, the billionaires should Obama come to power. [Big Grin] However the super rich can take comfort from the fact that before the current downturn, though they amount to less than 1% of the working population, they appear to the only group in US society, that was better off than they were at the start of the Bush presidency. So I think they will get by.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 12, 2008 04:34      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
______________________- Lets cut to the TRUTH. Business and Business interests run the USA. So those high rollers and their allies (GOP) will not do any thing that will hurt the bottom line on the profit sheet.

If you work for a paycheck, you are not part of the elite. So if you don't get to make the choices about where or how the company spends it's money, why would you vote (GOP). You are working for the "MAN" that gets the Tax breaks. ARE YOU INTERESTED IN HIS MAKING A TON OF MONEY WHILE HE THROWS YOU THE CRUMBS? Must be.

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Benjamin Franklin,

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ASM65816
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Icon 5 posted September 13, 2008 13:58      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
September 12, 2008 04:13
Your post certainly makes me feel fear for that oppressed and suffering minority, the billionaires should Obama come to power. [Big Grin]     ... though they amount to less than 1% of the working population.

Is the problem really that "the government needs to collect more taxes"?

Why isn't "more efficient first" the better choice?
 
quote:
from "Mc Cain picks running mate"

September 03, 2008, 03:45
The point of the McKinsey report is that the US spends a lot more than other OECD countries for outcomes that are ... often worse than theirs. It is not unreasonable to conclude that there must be a better way.

Originally posted by ASM:
PS: Your statement "the US spends a lot more than other OECD countries for outcomes that are ... often worse" easily supports the premise that spending more does not mean "better."

FYI: To find out if a doctor bills for more than 24 hours of work in a day (as an example), you need to take all the cases (patients) he worked on, and add up the hours billed for each case (unless the doctor bills something like "yesterday I worked for 27 hours on a patient, and today I worked on the same patient for 27 hours also").

#include <sarcasm.h>
Gee ... maybe fraud and waste aren't all that bad.
 
quote:
"Liberal" Idiot: If the government is allowed to search all medical records (claims) to investigate the billions of dollars of fraud and waste in medical care, then the invasion of privacy will be even worse than wire-tapping. Just spend more money without looking where it goes!!! It's the right thing to do!


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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted September 13, 2008 21:34      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ASM65816 wrote:
Why isn't "more efficient first" the better choice?

I'm pretty sure it's because our politicians are greedy bastards who allow their votes to be bought by special interest groups who have no interest in efficiency since those they represent are the ones who directly benefit from government waste?

If the government is allowed to search all medical records (claims) to investigate the billions of dollars of fraud and waste in medical care

You seem to be unaware of how this works. They can already investigate medical claims. That's what that paper you sign that authorizes your doctor/hospital/whatever to release records to your insurance is for. If you want to file a claim, you have to give that authorization. No way around it.

Duh.

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted September 14, 2008 00:31      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM:
Why isn't "more efficient first" the better choice?

September 13, 2008 21:34
I'm pretty sure it's because our politicians are greedy bastards who allow their votes to be bought by special interest groups who have no interest in efficiency since those they represent are the ones who directly benefit from government waste?

But it's votes that the politicians really want, and "the public" (voters) already know about fraud and waste in health care programs like Medicare. The news has even revealed "other countries get better health care without spending as much money."

Shouldn't a politician tell the voters: "You know all that fraud and waste in health care? I'm going to find it, then I'll take the money and spend it on something that actually keeps people healthy. And the best part is nobody will have to pay extra taxes ... not even rich people!" (Just an observation.)

quote:
Originally posted by ASM:
If the government is allowed to search all medical records (claims) to investigate the billions of dollars of fraud and waste in medical care

September 13, 2008 21:34
You seem to be unaware of how this works. They already can investigate medical claims. That's what that paper you sign that authorizes your doctor/hospital/whatever to release records to your insurance is for. If you want to file a claim, you have to give that authorization. No way around it.

They don't "investigate" medical claims. The government looks at the claim: Is the name in a database? Is the ID number in a database? Is the hospital approved for the service? Is that a service we pay for?   [crazy]   Ok! Give them the money!!!

Second, you sign to give the hospital/physicians access to your records (so they can get their money). If they're the ones scamming the system, then having them report fraud is like the fox guarding the hen house.

Currently, the government trusts the hospitals and physicians. The government doesn't say "we want to verify that patient _x_ received this list of treatments on the following dates" -- partly because the patient is supposed to authorize access to records first. Only if criminal charges are filed can the government ask for medical records (subpoena).

The total benefits paid per individual is only thing the government keeps track of (so they know when to stop paying).

There's no national medical record database yet, and one point of concern is the risk of such a system being compromised and violating privacy rights (which is a legitimate concern).

With respect to US health care, a major problem (IMNSHO) is the "we-can't-let-them-die" mentality. As a cynic, my question to the hospitals/physicians is: Do you care about the patients, or are you using them to get every dime you can from the government, the insurance companies, and everyone else?

Then there's the patients. Personal responsibility for one's own health should be a major factor. <rant> I think a HUGE dose of Amish life should be given to those who complain that it's not their fault for not taking care of themselves. </rant>

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 14, 2008 00:34      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Only ASM could describe the culture of waste and fraud that has flourished for 8 years under the Bush regime, then blame it all on "liberal idiots". [shake head]

quote:
P.J.O'Rourke:
Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work, and then get elected and prove it.



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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted September 14, 2008 06:03      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ASM65816 wrote:
Currently, the government trusts the hospitals and physicians. The government doesn't say "we want to verify that patient _x_ received this list of treatments on the following dates" -- partly because the patient is supposed to authorize access to records first. Only if criminal charges are filed can the government ask for medical records (subpoena).

Bwahahahaa... try getting a physician to treat you without singing forms to allow the release of records to your insurance company (which includes Medicare and Medicaid) so that they can submit claims. Some doctors will do it, but then you will pay every cent of the bill and you'll hav to submit the claims to your insurance company on your own. The insurance companies (including Medicare/Medicaid) will promptly send you a form to sign that gives them authorization to access your records. Until you sign that form, they won't pay your claim.

Look... the fact that Medicare and Medicaid can investigate a claim does not mean that they do. Indeed, most of the time, they don't. This arrangement is very profitable for the medical groups that do this sort of thing, and they pay lobbyists to get congress to make sure that any legislation passed will keep them profitable.

Let's look at a few numbers:
2007 lobbying totals by industry:
$1,439,371,68 - Pharmaceuticals/Health Products
$1,096,106,248 - Insurance
$635,796,478 - Hospitals/Nursing Homes
$596,753,621 - Health Professionals
$0 - "Liberal" idiots

Do you really believe that it's the "liberal idiots" concerned with privacy who keep things the way they are now, ensuring that money flows from government medical programs to the medical industry?

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted September 14, 2008 12:12      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Part I: Lobbyists Support "Equal Opportunity" (How nice </sarcasm>)
quote:
September 14, 2008 06:03
Let's look at a few numbers: 2007 lobbying totals by industry
...
$1,439,371,68 - Pharmaceuticals/Health Products

... and the money goes to BOTH Republicans and Democrats.

If you plan to vote against Republicans because they accept lots of lobbyist money, you better vote Ralph Nader for President because the Democrats "accept lots of money" also.
 

Part II: The Daily KOS Said Better Things About Republicans?
quote:
from "Medicare Deceived Congress, Hid Fraud" (Daily KOS)

"The bad news is that Republican senators and Congress people are all over this, while Democratic politicians remain to be seen and heard from. Senator Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, and Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, R-Miami, lead the way in predicting upcoming hearings into bedeviled Medicare, a $466 billion program.

What's being done to address the mess? Once again, it's Republican lawmakers who are leading the way. In June, [Mel] Martinez [R-FL] joined U.S. Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, in sponsoring legislation that takes aim at fraud on major fronts..."

For Democrats, maybe the question to ask is: Have we been "riding on the coat-tails" of great Democrats of the past, and we forgot to make a good name for Democrats now?
 

Part III: No Shortage of Idiots
quote:
Do you really believe that it's the "liberal idiots" ... who keep things the way they are now?
As far as I'm concerned, everyone that thinks US health care can be fixed without confronting fraud first is an "idiot." (Technically, it's more accurate to describe the condition as "living on delusions and wishful thinking" instead of "idiocy.")
 

Part IV: How to Run Investigations
quote:
Medicare and Medicaid can investigate a claim does not mean that they do.
Just an observation (common sense): If you want to investigate fraud, you have police or someone like the FBI investigate. If you want to investigate wasteful spending, you have accountants (like a CPA) to investigate (audit) the "books" (financial records). From Medicare's "investigation" track record, shouldn't someone else do the investigating?
 

Part V: Limited Access is Not Full Access
quote:
getting a physician to treat you without singing forms to allow the release of records
FYI: Only "the physician" has FULL ACCESS to records. Information is typically "released" on a "need to know" basis. Medicare ONLY receives information (medical records) needed to support claims (on a case by case basis). Medicare (government) can't say "hey, since this guy filed a claim -- tell me everything about him since 1967." (See the difference yet?)

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GrumpySteen

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ASM65816 wrote:
... and the money goes to BOTH Republicans and Democrats.

And yet you choose to blame "liberal idiots" rather than corrupt politicians. You blame the people, not the politicians and the medical industry who are actually responsible. Are you beginning to grasp my point yet? (of course not... this is a bit like explaining quantum physics to a bowl of Jell-o, but I'm feeling Quixotic today).

If you plan to vote against Republicans because they accept lots of lobbyist money

No, I'm planning to vote against Republicans because I don't believe John McCain's health will stand up to four years in office and Palin's "don't take time to blink" policy also means she won't take time to think, either, and will not understand the ramifications of her reactionary, faith-based style of decision making. The results of that will be just as disasterous, if not more so, than the Bush administration's irresponsible behavior.

FYI: Only "the physician" has FULL ACCESS to records. Information is typically "released" on a "need to know" basis. Medicare ONLY receives information (medical records) needed to support claims (on a case by case basis). Medicare (government) can't say "hey, since this guy filed a claim -- tell me everything about him since 1967."

Actually, they can. The permission that you sign does not place any limit what can be released. Have you ever read one of these before signing it? I'm thinking not. All records retained by that physician or organization can be released once you sign that paper. In practice, insurance companies do not request anything beyond the relevant records (and rarely request anything more than what is submitted in the first place), because nobody wants MORE papaerwork to look at.

Expansions of this argument and straw-man additions to the one claim that I am refuting aside, your own posts are now showing that you understand that it's not liberals trying to protect privacy that cause fraud, which WAS your original statement.

I assume you're going to throw up every diversionary argument you can come up with in order to avoid saying "whoops, I was wrong" and continue this line of stupid posturing. Unfortunately for you, I've made my point (fraud is not caused by "liberal idiots" demanding privacy) and you have inadvertanetly agreed with that point, so the argument is over.

I won.

Kthxbai.

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nibbler
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Icon 1 posted September 14, 2008 19:50      Profile for nibbler   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Hello nibbler, whatever happened to your former id "chesty"?

Well you post one little link that doesn't quite conform to html standards...

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted September 14, 2008 19:58      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Kinda makes you wonder what the point of HIPAA was, huh Steen? As far as I can tell, it's just one more frakkin' form to sign. More dead trees, but nothing changed.

Maybe the paper lobby pushed it through. [Razz]

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted September 14, 2008 20:22      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
HIPAA had some good provisions in it... but the health care industry has worked dilligently to find ways to get around them.

Meet MedFICO.
From the folks that brought you the credit score system in all it's glory, here's MedFICO! It's a new business project underway with the goal of assessing patient's ability to pay their medical bills. The system would gather patient's bill payment history from hospitals around the country and then assign patients a score similar to a credit score.

What could possibly go wrong?

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 14, 2008 20:45      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
As far as I can tell, it's just one more frakkin' form to sign. More dead trees, but nothing changed.

Sounds like that 'paperwork reduction' law, which required government departments to explain _why_ they were asking for information from the citizens. The idea was to stop government asking pointless questions, and reduce the amount of paperwork. The reality was that every government form got an extra paragraph or two that said (in governmentese) "coz we wanna know".

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Icon 1 posted September 14, 2008 21:37      Profile for nibbler   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So back to the point of liberal Democrat millionaires who say, "the rich need to pay more" - Why do they hire tax professionals Like Wineberg, Solheim Howell & Shain to help them find 1 hunnert an fitty Gs in tax deductions?

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 14, 2008 22:11      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nibbler:
So back to the point of liberal Democrat millionaires who say, "the rich need to pay more" - Why do they hire tax professionals Like Wineberg, Solheim Howell & Shain to help them find 1 hunnert an fitty Gs in tax deductions?

Probably for the same reason I pay someone to do my taxes, because tax forms give me a headache, and there's other things I'd rather do with my time.

Plus, of course, with Obama being the kind of guy who publishes his tax details online, he'd want to be _very_ sure he got it right, because he knows the other side will be going through the details with a fine tooth comb looking for any excuse to call him a tax evader. No-one has, which implies his deductions were legit.

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Icon 1 posted September 14, 2008 22:31      Profile for nibbler   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Once again you miss the point.

He has stated that rich people do not pay enough. He is, by any standard, rich.
He does not have to take deductions. He can file and pay taxes without getting credit for taxable donations, etc...
If he truly believed he needed to pay more. Why didn't he?


And blaming the "Bush Regime" is ludicrous. The Democrats have had the congress and what have they done?

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