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Author Topic: Palin on the environment
Snaggy

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Icon 1 posted September 04, 2008 08:04      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Someone should drill baby drill some sense into this person. [crazy]
http://www.defendersactionfund.org/newsroom/sarah_palin.html

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tweety
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Icon 1 posted September 04, 2008 08:48      Profile for tweety   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This, in no way, is surprising. One of my friends (email pen pal) is very, very conservative and does not believe that humans can change their environment in the way we have. Now, this isn't some redneck guy, he's very intelligent, but is much older and comes from the time when the world was so big there was no way we humans would ever run out of x, y, or z.

It seems to me that Palin and the rest of the Republican party are so tied to religion that it is God and Bible first, science and tech second. Which is quite sad as that kind of thinking will ultimately lead us into a new dark age.

I know I said before I was leaning toward McCain, but that was for only one reason. Obama's campaign has so far been high on rhetoric, short on details. I've looked at much of the papers available on Obama's site, and to be honest, there are some holes. McCain's is a bit more forthcoming with hard numbers.

Before I can get behind a candidate I need to know what their tactical plan is, not just the strategy. More detail has been emerging from Obama's camp since the convention, but I feel there needs to be more. I pray that Obama gets that message out loud and clear, soon and fast.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted September 04, 2008 14:05      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That's right. I'd signed a petition against the wolf killing in Alaska and Idaho a while back, but I hadn't put two and two together yet and realized Palin would have been one of the people behind that careless and cruel behavior.

McCain didn't have much of a chance of getting my vote before, but his VP pick has cinched it. No way in hell would I vote for someone who supports slaughtering an ecosystem's native predators.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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snupy
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Icon 1 posted September 04, 2008 16:13      Profile for snupy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have no words...with so many reasons to hate her, how does one choose? [Roll Eyes]

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 05, 2008 02:05      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by snupy:
I have no words...with so many reasons to hate her, how does one choose? [Roll Eyes]

Here's another one, she's a book-banner

quote:
from TFA:
Back in 1996, when she first became mayor, Sarah Palin asked the city librarian if she would be all right with censoring library books should she be asked to do so.

According to news coverage at the time, the librarian said she would definitely not be all right with it. A few months later, the librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, got a letter from Palin telling her she was going to be fired



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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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shentzu
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Icon 1 posted September 05, 2008 07:09      Profile for shentzu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by snupy:
I have no words...with so many reasons to hate her, how does one choose? [Roll Eyes]

Here's another one, she's a book-banner

quote:
from TFA:
Back in 1996, when she first became mayor, Sarah Palin asked the city librarian if she would be all right with censoring library books should she be asked to do so.

According to news coverage at the time, the librarian said she would definitely not be all right with it. A few months later, the librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, got a letter from Palin telling her she was going to be fired


ah the righteous! first they ban books, then they burn books...

....then they start burning people.

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Set a man by a fire and you keep him warm for a day, but set a man on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.

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tweety
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Icon 1 posted September 05, 2008 09:33      Profile for tweety   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by shentzu:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by snupy:
I have no words...with so many reasons to hate her, how does one choose? [Roll Eyes]

Here's another one, she's a book-banner

quote:
from TFA:
Back in 1996, when she first became mayor, Sarah Palin asked the city librarian if she would be all right with censoring library books should she be asked to do so.

According to news coverage at the time, the librarian said she would definitely not be all right with it. A few months later, the librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, got a letter from Palin telling her she was going to be fired


ah the righteous! first they ban books, then they burn books...

....then they start burning people.

The only problem with burning people is that nasty charcoal taste. I hate that.

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If I were a good man I'd talk to you more often than I do.
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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted September 05, 2008 16:26      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by snupy:
I have no words...with so many reasons to hate her, how does one choose? [Roll Eyes]

Hmm... but she still looks like a very good bet to be the first woman to be elected President doesn't she?

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Red Five
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Icon 1 posted September 07, 2008 18:06      Profile for Red Five     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Do you know how many millions of square miles are contained within ANWR? Do you know that the proposed drilling area is less than 4 square miles, and is some of the most desolate, flat, prairie-like land in the entire nation? Have any of you actually seen the area they want to explore, or seen pictures of it? I have. It is flat. It is desolate. There is nothing there, NOTHING, except maybe some grass.

And so what if there are lots of caribou up there? The big famous Alaskan Oil Pipeline has actually increased the caribou population, due to the warmth of the pipe compared to the surrounding tundra. We mammals like to be warm when we reproduce.

The "book-banning" has been thoroughly debunked. A list making the rounds reported to contain books that then-Mayor Palin had banned from the public library contains books that didn't even exist when the alleged banning took place. In fact, this list appears to be a nearly exact copy of a more general "Books Banned at One Time or Another in the United States". There is no evidence that any books were banned, only that Palin asked the city librarian if the librarian would be alright with censoring books were she asked to do so.

The link posted above to the Defenders Action Fund site appears to talk about wolf and bear population-control programs, not wanton killing of them. Anthropogenic global warming, sorry, "climate change"? Please. There is so much new information available this year that destroys so many of the arguments used in the IPCC report. The only reason it is being considered to add polar bears to the endangered species list is to block the possibility of drilling off the coast of Alaska. The actual population has not decreased due to "global warming" or anything else. And I'm sure there is another side to paragraph about Palin being against the initiative to "protect Bristol Bay".

Vote how you will, but make sure you have all the facts before you start making or believing inflammatory statements that have no basis in fact.

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted September 07, 2008 18:16      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Red Five:
Do you know how many millions of square miles are contained within ANWR? Do you know that the proposed drilling area is less than 4 square miles, and is some of the most desolate, flat, prairie-like land in the entire nation?

Hey, Red, did you know Republicans will say, or publish, anything to get elected?

http://www.geekculture.com/ultimatebb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000368

So do you know this, or are you repeating some unverified line of political pandering?

More important, I don't believe the amount of oil drilled won't change the price of oil.

CP

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 07, 2008 19:17      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Red Five:
The "book-banning" has been thoroughly debunked.

No it hasn't, as your own statement a few lines later makes clear.

quote:
Palin asked the city librarian if the librarian would be alright with censoring books were she asked to do so.
And fired her when she said 'no'.
A minor detail, I know, but important.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted September 07, 2008 19:54      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Not really trying to feed the troll, but I have some useful links and I might as well add them here in the form of a response.

Red Five wrote:
Do you know that the proposed drilling area is less than 4 square miles

The real area impacted is much larger than supporters of drilling would ever admit. Funny how the way it's spread around, cutting off and isolating areas is never addressed by defenders.

The "book-banning" has been thoroughly debunked.
...
There is no evidence that any books were banned, only that Palin asked the city librarian if the librarian would be alright with censoring books were she asked to do so.

... and then fired the librarian for saying no. That a fake list (which originated with a comment here as far as I can tell) is circulating is irrelevant to the fact that Palin asked how to go about banning books and fired the person who refused. I wouldn't say that Palin's desire to ban books has been thoroughly (or even remotely) debunked.

Don't feel bad, though... it's not easy to debunk something that was witnessed by thousands and is documented in newspapers and public records.

The big famous Alaskan Oil Pipeline has actually increased the caribou population, due to the warmth of the pipe compared to the surrounding tundra. We mammals like to be warm when we reproduce.

You are obviously unaware that the pipeline was built above ground to prevent it from melting the permafrost (which would soften the ground, cause sections of the pipe to sink and cause problems) and is installed in insulated and sometimes refrigerated ditches where it has to be underground. It was specifically designed to not heat up the area which would cause problems with both the pipeline and the ecology. Kinda fucks with your whole "caribou love the heat this thing gives off" theory, doesn't it?

make sure you have all the facts before you start making or believing inflammatory statements that have no basis in fact.

Ironic that you should say that [Roll Eyes]

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted September 07, 2008 22:49      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Red Five:
The link posted above to the Defenders Action Fund site appears to talk about wolf and bear population-control programs, not wanton killing of them.

What you seem unaware of is that apex predators, such as wolves and bears, don't need population control. They naturally control their own populations, in order to avoid growing beyond the food source. The "population control" in Alaska is based on ignorance and greed. They kill predators in order to try and overpopulate game for hunters.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted September 08, 2008 02:15      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I can't see why we are even asking these questions. This is faith based politics, so science is only valid if it is in line with the Old Testament. Towards the end of the first chapter of Genesis, the absolute cornerstone of our understanding of the world, God granted man "dominion over ... every living thing that moveth upon the earth". So we can do whatever we please with them. Anyway even if we wipe out a few species, if there is enough demand, market forces will bring them back.

I suspect religious right thinking does not stray that far from this parody.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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tweety
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Icon 1 posted September 08, 2008 10:44      Profile for tweety   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
One of my email pals (the IntarWeb Age equivalent of pen pal) is quite the conservative. He does not believe that humans can change our environment to the degree we have. He does not believe that the current climate trends are influenced by human activity, that it is all part of a natural cycle. There he is half right.

The biggest problem is that he grew up (he's much older than I) in an age when all the world's top climatologists were screaming that we were headed toward a new ice age. I remember hearing those cries as late as the early '80s. Now, of course, all the top climatologists are screaming we're headed toward the big melt.

So, for him, a large part of his disbelief is that the scientific community, in his eyes, has derailed their credibility. How do you argue with that?

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted September 08, 2008 12:21      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
tweety wrote:
for him, a large part of his disbelief is that the scientific community, in his eyes, has derailed their credibility. How do you argue with that?

That's easy. Point out that almost everything done to combat global warming also results in less pollution. Most people don't really need threats of the extinction of human life to convince them that clean air and water is better than polluted air and water.

Put more bluntly, I could take a dump on my front porch and it wouldn't harm me or anyone else... but who wants a big pile of fecal material sitting on their porch?

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tweety
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Icon 1 posted September 08, 2008 13:12      Profile for tweety   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Steen – that's pretty much were I've decided to go. He grouses about China's pollution problems and LA's (he's originally from CA). I figured I'd drop the "Well, if humans can't change their environments so much, than China's and LA's pollution problems are completely natural, so stop bitchin' about it." argument and see where that goes.

Frankly, I find a huge foundation for the anti-Renewable/Climate Change crowd is fear. Fear that by changing our energy sources we'll kill our economy, our competitiveness, our way of life. It's truly sad to me as I believe that if we were trying to reach the moon today, for the first time, it would be these same people who would fight tooth and nail to keep us from reaching the moon.

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If I were a good man I'd talk to you more often than I do.
American Fairy Tales
IT, A Philosophy

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 08, 2008 13:58      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by tweety:
The biggest problem is that he grew up (he's much older than I) in an age when all the world's top climatologists were screaming that we were headed toward a new ice age. I remember hearing those cries as late as the early '80s. Now, of course, all the top climatologists are screaming we're headed toward the big melt.

If I had $1 for every time I've heard that, and it's not true.

quote:
from Wikipedia:
Concern peaked in the early 1970s...
...it should be realised that climate scientists were perfectly well aware that predictions based on this trend were not possible...
However in the popular press the possibility of cooling was reported generally without the caveats present in the scientific reports.

 
Basically, while a few climatologists were predicting an ice age "soon" (in geological terms), others were warning of CO2-induced global warming. There were lots of speculative articles about an impending ice age in the popular press, but there was nothing like broad agreement among "all the worlds climatologists".

Tweety: you need to tell your friend to stop taking Omni as his source of scientific information.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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tweety
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Icon 1 posted September 08, 2008 15:28      Profile for tweety   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've probably done more research and pointed him toward more credible sources than anyone he knows. His reaction: Yeah, but, but, there's no proof!

Oy! He likes these conversations and is retired. Ergo, he has more time than I. It doesn't really bug me, well, not so much anymore. I've realized that he's a) engaging in a debate where the evidence at hand isn't exactly bulletproof unless you count 20/20 hindsight; b) engaging in the debate as a means to get me to question what is so faithfully spewed forth in the media (at least, that's my impression); and c) engaging in the debate because he finds it entertaining.

We've also gotten into a political/legal/Constitutional debate as well. That one is more entertaining for me as it all boils down to opinion and interpretation of law, whether written or de facto.

I've come to believe, that like Vietnam, there is no winning either contest. Maybe Korea is the better example.

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shentzu
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Icon 1 posted September 08, 2008 17:53      Profile for shentzu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by tweety:
Frankly, I find a huge foundation for the anti-Renewable/Climate Change crowd is fear. Fear that by changing our energy sources we'll kill our economy, our competitiveness, our way of life. It's truly sad to me as I believe that if we were trying to reach the moon today, for the first time, it would be these same people who would fight tooth and nail to keep us from reaching the moon.

why is it so hard for these people to see that we have a huge tech and economic opportunity in the form of a chance to make energy in a different and renewable way that will allow both huge wealth creation as well as a chance to create real energy freedom for everyone?

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Set a man by a fire and you keep him warm for a day, but set a man on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.

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Red Five
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Icon 1 posted September 14, 2008 14:19      Profile for Red Five     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Red Five:
The "book-banning" has been thoroughly debunked.

No it hasn't, as your own statement a few lines later makes clear.

quote:
Palin asked the city librarian if the librarian would be alright with censoring books were she asked to do so.
And fired her when she said 'no'.
A minor detail, I know, but important.

Except that the librarian wasn't fired.

quote:
Palin notified Emmons (the librarian) she would be fired in January 1997 because the mayor didn't feel she had the librarian's "full support." Emmons was reinstated the next day after public outcry, according to newspaper reports at the time.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5it8KyOqY5ZF4nQaF8rc4tX5tLvCgD93595CG0

quote:
Hey, Red, did you know Republicans will say, or publish, anything to get elected?

http://www.geekculture.com/ultimatebb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000368

So do you know this, or are you repeating some unverified line of political pandering?

Hey Colonel, did you know that Democrats will do the same? Welcome to America, here's your First Amendment. BTW, I've seen maps of the proposed drilling area (2000 acres or 3.125 sq. mi.), and it is very small compared to the vastness that is ANWR (19 million acres or 29,687.5 sq. mi.).

quote:
The real area impacted is much larger than supporters of drilling would ever admit. Funny how the way it's spread around, cutting off and isolating areas is never addressed by defenders.
And funny how the sources of such information are usually treated as though they have no agenda of their own to push, and cannot possibly be using incorrect information...

quote:
Anyway even if we wipe out a few species,
then they weren't fit enough to survive, and Darwinian evolution plays out yet again. That might be funny if a bunch of us really thought that way.

I don't have a problem with finding alternate energy sources; I just have a problem with using the wrong justification for them, and for efforts to dictate to us that we cannot use the resources we already have. America is not an oil-poor nation, for instance; according to recent reports released by several government agencies, we have provable and technologically-recoverable oil resources at least 3.5 times greater than the known reserves of Saudi Arabia. We can access this oil much more cleanly and with far less impact to the environment than in years past, yet we are not allowed to do so. Also, our current level of technology somewhat precludes us from replacing oil and coal with solar and wind power. We can't yet scale these sources to supply the entire nation, or compensate fully for reductions in solar and wind output.

How about nuclear?

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 14, 2008 14:36      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Red Five has a strange habit of denying bad stuff about Palin, then admitting it a few lines later...

quote:
Originally posted by Red Five:
Except that the librarian wasn't fired

then

quote:
Palin notified Emmons (the librarian) she would be fired in January 1997 because the mayor didn't feel she had the librarian's "full support." Emmons was reinstated the next day after public outcry, according to newspaper reports at the time.
Fired.
Then reinstated after public outcry.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted September 14, 2008 16:57      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Red Five wrote:
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5it8KyOqY5ZF4nQaF8rc4tX5tLvCgD93595CG0

Taylor Griffin, a spokesman for the McCain campaign, said Thursday that Palin asked the head librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, on three occasions how she would react to attempts at banning books. He said the questions, in the fall of 1996, were hypothetical and entirely appropriate. He said a patron had asked the library to remove a title the year before and the mayor wanted to understand how such disputes were handled.

Records on the city's Web site, however, do not show any books were challenged in Wasilla in the 10 years before Palin took office.


Busted in a bare faced lie meant to make the whole affair sound more reasonable. I had not run across that bit before. Thanks for the link and one more reason to distrust everything that Palin and the GOP say (not that I really needed another one).

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 14, 2008 18:03      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
from TFA:
The Rev. Howard Bess, a liberal Christian preacher in the nearby town of Palmer, said the church Palin and her family attended until 2002, the Wasilla Assembly of God, was pushing to remove his book from local bookstores.

That's something I hadn't seen before, Palin wasn't gunning for books written by Evolutionists and other Godless Heathens, she was targeting books written by the wrong kind of Christian.

I wonder how many christian voters are aware that their church could be on the receiving end of a good old-fashioned book-burning if Palin ever becomes Prez. If you don't speak in tongues, be afraid.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted September 15, 2008 05:31      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Finding alternatives to fossil fuels is an immensely difficult and complex problem. This piece argues that there are technical, and infrastructural problems that still have to be solved before we can really make the most of renewables, and even then there are politically difficult and dangerous trade offs with energy security. Efforts by governments to encourage developments of greener energy, and in particular the carbon credits scheme, have thus far been a costly failure, giving windfall profits to energy companies and distorting the market in favour of what are at present expensive, only marginally effective, and underdeveloped technologies. We need some fresh thinking, and a lot more R & D in this area.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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