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Author Topic: Orson Scott Card is a Loon
fs

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Icon 1 posted July 31, 2008 02:50      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yeah, that Orson Scott Card of Ender's Game fame. (More on that later.)

Orson Scott Card thinks it's time to do away with that insane constitution and those crazy civil rights.

My favorite?

quote:
Husbands need to have the whole society agree that when they marry, their wives are off limits to all other males. He has a right to trust that all his wife's children would be his.

Wives need to have the whole society agree that when they marry, their husband is off limits to all other females. All of his protection and earning power will be devoted to her and her children, and will not be divided with other women and their children.

It's like he's writing in 1908. "Protection" and "earning power" in exchange for an incubator on the hoof. Do people still believe this crap? Don't answer that, I know.

Maswan was saying yesterday that there is nothing, absolutely nothing you can say, when satirizing religious fundamentalists, that is so extreme that it is recognizeable as humor, not actual dogma, unless you make it clear that you are, in fact, kidding.

Or maybe it's the fact that TL;DR ravings about the evils of homosexuality are just so twentieth century.

Or maybe it's this bit:
quote:
If the Constitution is defined in such a way as to destroy the privileged position of marriage, it is that insane Constitution, not marriage, that will die.
That "insane Constitution" huh? I wonder if Mr. Card is actually aware of the contents of the Constitution. Namely, that despite the best efforts of the kind of people that wholeheartedly agree with everything he has said, it doesn't say a goddamn thing about marriage.

I would also add that gay men are awesome. Not being a woman, Mr. Card cannot truly appreciate the inherent awesomeness of a member of the opposite sex who patently has no vested interest in taking away his shoes (oh, and I got a cute pair of sandals yesterday, love midsummer sales, also two cute hats) and locking him up in order to prevent him from incubating anyone else's genetic legacy.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted July 31, 2008 03:50      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Another TL/DR, keep posting these fs, and I wont miss my daily dose of ASM!

I see he is a Mormon. I have very limited experience of them, but in both cases, they were pretty weird.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted July 31, 2008 04:23      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's odd, you septics have had 7.5 years of Republican government, and yet everywhere you look, honest god-fearing fag-hating conservative americans are an oppressed majority, besieged by hordes of godless Liberals hell-bent on destroying Christian Civilization.

Bush must be doing a really crap job.

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fs

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Icon 1 posted July 31, 2008 05:13      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
It's odd, you septics have had 7.5 years of Republican government, and yet everywhere you look, honest god-fearing fag-hating conservative americans are an oppressed majority, besieged by hordes of godless Liberals hell-bent on destroying Christian Civilization.

It's just going to get more rabid and frothing as we go toward the election. They are an extremely loud, obnoxious minority watching their dreams of White Christian Empire dissipate as they realize that no matter who replaces Bush, that person isn't going to be focused on their agenda*. For the past eight years, they've had someone whose policies reinforce their craziness, who they felt legitimized them.

Wonder how many more shootings there will be as they attempt to effect public policy via violence. Trucks full of fertilizer, maybe?

*Even if McCain were elected, I think he would pander to the economic conservatives before the morality conservatives.

quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
Another TL/DR, keep posting these fs, and I wont miss my daily dose of ASM!

Hah, I actually debated whether or not to post it, but as he's a science fiction writer and it's being discussed on some science fiction blogs, I figured it was fair game.

Also, it made me wonder how anyone who writes science fiction, which often looks toward the future and possibilities, can be so stuck in the nineteenth century.

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Posts: 1973 | From: The Cat Ship | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
shentzu
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Icon 2 posted July 31, 2008 06:17      Profile for shentzu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
Another TL/DR, keep posting these fs, and I wont miss my daily dose of ASM!

I see he is a Mormon. I have very limited experience of them, but in both cases, they were pretty weird.

*cough*

'scuse me?

*raises hand*

born in utah, raised in utah, moved back to utah, all of my family is mormon.

pretty weird is polite.

"f'ing nutters" is accurate a large part of time.

i now return you to your regularly scheduled program. thank you.

from TFA:

quote:
And if you choose to home-school your children so they are not propagandized with the "normality" of "gay marriage," you will find more states trying to do as California is doing -- making it illegal to take your children out of the propaganda mill that our schools are rapidly becoming.

How dangerous is this, politically? Please remember that for the mildest of comments critical of the political agenda of homosexual activists, I have been called a "homophobe" for years.

those are his "mildest of comments"?

he is right homophobe is not the term for him, it is far too soft.

...what is sad is that i had a gay friend (had, past tense, guess the homophobia got to him) who loved the ender books because the "outsiderness" of the characters spoke to him and how he felt about his sexuality and society.

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tweety
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Icon 1 posted July 31, 2008 07:21      Profile for tweety   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Re: What you linked to fs NI;DR, not into reading the latest religious nutjob's rant on how the US is all fugged up and if only we went back to living our lives based on Christian fundamentalism like our forefathers then everything would get better. I mean, that crazy Constitution must have been a byproduct of them damned hippies back in '69. Before that, we's a God-fearin', homo-hatin', slave ownin' Christian nation. If ya's ain't with us (and Christ), you's Devil spawn.

Anyway, I really like the Ender's series. I started reading the Earthfall series but stopped midway through (which is completely unlike me as I always read a full series). Why? Two things, I came across some interview or story on Card that talked about his religious fundamentalism (which normally doesn't bother me), and at the same time started seeing heavy conservative Christian under and overtones in the Earthfall series which completely ruined it for me. I'm all for religious debate in Sci-Fi and other genres, but it seemed excessively preachy to me.

Speaking of Mormons, I was totally put off by the entire religion and its followers when they decided it was a good idea to posthumously "convert" the Jews who died during the Holocaust. That sort of thing is personally offensive to me. I also worked with a Mormon guy at one point. Real nice guy, but I always felt there was something not quite right lurking underneath. Could never put my finger on it. Maybe he was just a little too passive aggressive, or something.

Anyway, personally, I liked Heinlein's take in Job, A Comedy of Justice. Then again, Heinlein's an atheist.

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted July 31, 2008 07:32      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Could someone explain this TL;DR notation which seems to have sprung up all over the boards these days?

My cryptographic skills (which are unreknowned far and wide) would suggest too loony; don't read.

Posts: 2421 | From: That London | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
fs

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Icon 1 posted July 31, 2008 07:35      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
Could someone explain this TL;DR notation which seems to have sprung up all over the boards these days?

My cryptographic skills (which are unreknowned far and wide) would suggest too loony; don't read.

TL;DR is Too Long; Didn't Read.

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Posts: 1973 | From: The Cat Ship | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
fs

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Icon 1 posted July 31, 2008 07:45      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by tweety:
Anyway, I really like the Ender's series.

Oh, thanks for reminding me. I meant to add the link to the Ender and Hitler: Sympathy for the Superman essay by Elaine Radford. I found it interesting, anyway.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted July 31, 2008 11:48      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So now I'm not sure who's crazier, Ratford or Card...

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Posts: 7670 | From: the lab | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
fs

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Icon 1 posted July 31, 2008 12:04      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Another TL;DR take on Orson Scott Card's ill-concieved essay at the Feminist SF blog. (I read it, but figured I'd cut all the TL;DR responses off at the pass. You've been warned.)

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted July 31, 2008 14:13      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
Another TL;DR take on Orson Scott Card's ill-concieved essay at the Feminist SF blog. (I read it, but figured I'd cut all the TL;DR responses off at the pass. You've been warned.)

TS;DR [Big Grin]

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shentzu
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Icon 1 posted July 31, 2008 14:25      Profile for shentzu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
Could someone explain this TL;DR notation which seems to have sprung up all over the boards these days?

My cryptographic skills (which are unreknowned far and wide) would suggest too loony; don't read.

http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/page/tldr-41233.jpg

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Metasquares
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Icon 1 posted July 31, 2008 15:34      Profile for Metasquares   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
So now I'm not sure who's crazier, Ratford or Card...

Ben Stein.
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tweety
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Icon 1 posted July 31, 2008 15:49      Profile for tweety   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
fs I read the Ender series waaaaaaaaaay back, when man and dinosaur still walked the Earth together. I followed your links, the one from Feminist SF pretty much sums up why I stopped reading Card, he's a nutter who uses religion to bolster his nutter position. The other link I never came across before, but was quite interesting.

Honestly, I always took the story to be about a kid who was tracked into becoming what he became, that his choices were essentially programmed into him from the society around him, and that even if he wanted to do it different, he couldn't. Also, the basic premise for the genocide of the books is that Earth was attacked first and that the military had confirmed another wave of aliens was on its way. Again, though, I could be wrong, it's been many moons since I last read those books.

But, the parallel between the character of Ender and Hitler is rather disturbing. I'll never be able to think about or look at those books the same way again. [Confused]

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Posts: 454 | From: IL | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
fs

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Icon 1 posted July 31, 2008 23:42      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by tweety:
But, the parallel between the character of Ender and Hitler is rather disturbing. I'll never be able to think about or look at those books the same way again. [Confused]

I thought it was an interesting essay.

Thinking about OSC, I wonder if he's seen how successful L. Ron Hubbard's cult turned out to be and angling for his own. It's not like Mormons don't have a long, proud tradition in that area.

Myself, I won't buy OSC's books or 'zine because I think he's vile and hateful and given that I have a finite budget for book purchasing, I'd rather buy books by authors that, if they have any particular prejudices, tend to keep them to themselves. Telling me that I should take off my shoes and get back in the kitchen is a guaranteed way to make sure I never spend any money on your product.

I always find it so disappointing when the people that were heroes in my childhood turn out to be not very nice at all. (Not that OSC was a childhood hero of mine, but other writers.)

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shentzu
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Icon 1 posted August 01, 2008 08:59      Profile for shentzu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Metasquares:
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
So now I'm not sure who's crazier, Ratford or Card...

Ben Stein.
oh now you have hit below the belt! look we were just talking average run of the mill crazy. you went and raised it to a whole new level.....

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MacManKrisK

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Icon 1 posted August 01, 2008 09:17      Profile for MacManKrisK     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yeah, Ben Stein bugs me. Brilliant actor, great game show host/contestant, crazy-right-wing-super-uber-ultra-conservative-makes-Rush-Limbaugh-look-like-a-lefty nutter.

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get rich and you still die"


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Metasquares
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Icon 1 posted August 01, 2008 23:12      Profile for Metasquares   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
He's an intelligent person who made the mistake of subordinating his perception of reality to his ideology. I think the two need to exist side by side, neither ruling the other, for an individual to be both healthy and accomplished.

But that doesn't make him any less crazy for it [Smile]

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ASM65816
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Icon 4 posted August 02, 2008 01:15      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
apparently from an article:

Husbands need to have the whole society agree that when they marry, their wives are off limits to all other males.

Wives need to have the whole society agree that when they marry, their husband is off limits to all other females.

<sarcasm> Excuse me, but even George Carlin (r.i.p.) knew that f_cking someone else's "significant other" poses SERIOUS social problems.
 
quote:
And so, with all of this in mind, folks, I offer you my revised list of the Two Commandments:

First: THOU SHALT ALWAYS BE HONEST AND FAITHFUL, ESPECIALLY TO THE PROVIDER OF THY NOOKIE.

    -- George Carlin , "When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops" (2004)

If George Carlin's "Two Commandments" seem "Fascist" to you (infringing on your "freedom" to f_ck anything non-mineral) -- You're probably a complete anarchist.
 
PS: Gay marriage is a racket -- Divorce lawyers needed another source of income.
 
EDIT:
quote:
Obama Sharply Assails Absent Black Fathers       June 16, 2008
    (The New York Times)

<more sarcasm> Wow! Even Obama knows that (sexual) infidelity (followed by out-of-wedlock offspring) f_cks-sh_t-up (at least for a particular segment of society).

I TRIPLE-DOG-DARE YOU -- claim that Obama said "illegitimate children (bastards) are good for society."   [shake head]

Having seen single and two-parent methods of raising human offspring: the single-parent method seems "insanely difficult" and "unnecessary" (assuming both parents want to care for their own offspring).

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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fs

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Icon 1 posted August 02, 2008 04:54      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Metasquares:
He's an intelligent person who made the mistake of subordinating his perception of reality to his ideology. I think the two need to exist side by side, neither ruling the other, for an individual to be both healthy and accomplished.

But that doesn't make him any less crazy for it [Smile]

There's no doubt that OSC is (or was, anyway) a powerful writer. Ender's Game really speaks to a wide range of people. Shentzu pointed out one example, and I've heard plenty of others.

One of the things I always found interesting about that was that so often those people are minorities, feel themselves at odds with society or victimized by it. The same people that OSC attacks in his essays. There's something deliciously ironic in OSC writing a book that sends a message of empowerment to the same people that turn him into a quivering, frothing pile of hate.

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