homeGeek CultureWebstoreeCards!Forums!Joy of Tech!AY2K!webcam

The Geek Culture Forums


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Geek Culture Forums   » News, Reviews, Views!   » Politics/Religion/Current Affairs   » ok, aside from the "b" (Page 2)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!  
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: ok, aside from the "b"
GrumpySteen

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan
Member # 170

Icon 1 posted July 27, 2008 18:46      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
*hits ASM in the head with a baseball bat to get his attention*

Muslims=bad does not mean Bush=Batman. Bush has told lies to justify starting wars that have resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths. TFA paints him as a hero and it's just as full of bullshit as your reasoning.

--------------------
Worst. Celibate. Ever.

Posts: 6364 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted July 27, 2008 19:15      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
<laughing-till-my-retinal-cells-build-a-holodeck-and-entertain-themselves-with-new-and-creative-forms-of-holo-pr0n>

quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
I was in Bosnia in 1999, and I KNOW Russian-made Surface-to-Air-Missiles were being fired at US aircraft over Iraq.

Just when you thought ASM's postings couldn't get any funnier...


Punchline #1: "Must have been very long-range SAMs then."

Punchline #2: "Which proves that George W Bush is really Batman"

ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho...

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...

ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho...

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...

ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho...

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...

ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho...

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
shentzu
Geek
Member # 2253

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted July 27, 2008 19:29      Profile for shentzu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
BTW: Your "Christian Terrorism" Wikipedia entry starts with: "This article or section may be inaccurate or unbalanced in favor of certain viewpoints", and makes the ridiculous claim that "Aryan Nations ... a white supremacist group" is "Christian terrorism."

they are self proclaimed christians, and terrorists. what part do you not understand?

quote:
Originally posted by fs:
Economics: Paying $1.15 is worse than paying $1.05 for an item if you are the buyer. HOW CAN ANYONE EXCEPT THE BUYER PAY FOR SOMETHING?!!!!   (Don't answer, I can tell that your rationalizations and delusions must be nearly endless.)

ok, up until that point i thought maybe you just failed to understand a few things, or maybe had minor disagreements, but that proves it. you are unbelievably and irrevocably stupid. end of story. i quit.


quote:
Originally posted by shentzu
the first step, i would say, is to disarm the opponent. Ok ... that was done in 1991.

then why was most of the list of WMDs stuff we gave him? what color is the sky in your world?


quote:
FYI: After 1991 "We" (meaning the US) "reduced" his power as much as possible. "We" did not give him "the weapons" -- the Russians and French were doing that. "We" were not giving him support -- Saddam got "support" after bribing UN officials (and others) to make UN Resolutions nearly useless.
that right, despite a long and confermed list of weapons given to saddam by Reagan and Bush, it never happened..... my god are you delusional or just in denial? do you know *any* history?

quote:
Originally posted by shentzu
i asked you to explain the difference between them to me. everyone has acted in a way that does not strictly meet the requirements of morality. some simply to a greater degree. thus to read an article where Bush ... is claimed to be the one acting morally, is, as we might say, a real knee slapper. You use impressive understatements: "everyone has acted in a way that does not strictly meet the requirements of morality. some simply to a greater degree."

Instead of "everyone has acted (blah blah blah)" -- just say "EVERYONE IS EVIL." (There ... FTFY.)

if i meant to say that, i would have. i said what i said because that is what i meant. being less than morally perfect is not being evil. despite your black and white world view, there is a nearly infinite spectrum of grays between a perfect moral behavior and a totally immoral one. and that is for a single moral choice. an entire life is that much more complex over again.

quote:
Simply a "greater degree"? Like car bombs in crowded markets? Like chopping off heads of Muslims of another Islamic denomination? Like using people as "human shields" by turning mosques into bases of military operation? Like executing journalists?
like bombing children? like water boarding? like threatening elected leaders? like kidnapping and extraditing people? like dropping smart bombs in a wedding?

look, for every evil that you can point to, there is one from the other side. the point is that if we are going to call ourselves "the good guys" maybe we should try acting like it, ya think?

quote:
How about I start listing Islamic terrorist acts against US interests during the Clinton Administration?
how about you try listing the dead civilians that Bush killed through this endless war?

if your argument is that numbers matter, the well over 100,000 we piled up in this war are surely more than the 2000 plus you list. so are we worse? you said math matters....

look i know this is an unfair request for me to make of a right winger, but two things, can you 1) not be a hypocrite, and 2) reply to the actual point of the post and not just the voices in your head?

still waiting for you to answer the first question i asked you, "what makes you think that i think that islamic terrorism is not all that bad" as you claimed.

or, again, the simple answer, terrorism is wrong, whether it is by christians, islamists, buddhists, atheists, or anyotherist. and if you are performing acts of terrorism, you can't claim to be "the good guys."

--------------------
Set a man by a fire and you keep him warm for a day, but set a man on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.

Posts: 108 | From: here and there | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Callipygous
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 2071

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted July 28, 2008 02:41      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
shentzu ASM ALWAYS conflates criticism of the Iraq war with support for (or at the very least passive acceptance of) militant Islamism. Every time we point out that this is a logical fallacy, and every time he ignores this. He claims to have a clear eyed unsentimental scientific view of the world, but it is one where logic is merely optional.

I wait for the moment when ASM discards these old fashioned notions of democracy to embrace the the clear logical ideology of fascism that is his natural home.

On a slightly depressing note, though not the majority, a disappointingly large percentage of the posts in the comments thread on this article are in support of the writer. Is it any wonder so many people from outside the US both fear and despise America? In Europe we have right wing nut jobs too, but they have always remained on the fringe, they have never taken control of a major party or garnered a significant popular vote. I cannot understand how any sane person who voted Republican in the last two presidential elections could feel anything but profound shame for their actions.

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

Posts: 2922 | From: Brighton - UK | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
fs

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 1181

Icon 1 posted July 28, 2008 02:50      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
*hits ASM in the head with a baseball bat to get his attention*

Muslims=bad does not mean Bush=Batman.

Every time I read this, I laugh until I cry.

And I feel the need to refine it further.

(Muslims=Bad) != (Bush=Batman)

--------------------
I'm in ur database, makin' moar recordz.

Posts: 1973 | From: The Cat Ship | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
fs

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 1181

Icon 1 posted July 28, 2008 03:01      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:


Part II: "Oh, So You're a Moron"
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
Economics: Paying $1.15 is worse than paying $1.05 for an item if you are the buyer.

HOW CAN ANYONE EXCEPT THE BUYER PAY FOR SOMETHING?!!!!   (Don't answer, I can tell that your rationalizations and delusions must be nearly endless.)

If you weren't an "idiot", maybe you would understand that "all other things considered equal" for examples is a standard practice.

Sweetie, in grown-up conversation we don't just make up what the other person said.

We also don't just assume that everyone is starting from the same point of view. What we do, sunshine, is state our starting conditions. If a condition for your examples is "everything else is equal" then you need to say that. The definition of "idiot" is not actually "someone who thinks differently than ASM."

Of course, it still wouldn't have negated my point that your examples are flawed because not everything else is equal and you don't understand that equating "Muslims" and "Bush" is not binary. But this must be giving you a headache...

Why don't you go lay down for a while and rest your pretty little head?

--------------------
I'm in ur database, makin' moar recordz.

Posts: 1973 | From: The Cat Ship | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted July 28, 2008 05:03      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
<laughing-till-the-cartilage-in-my-left-ear-forms-the-chinese-character-for-laughter>

Here's a question I bet ASM won't answer...

A rope lying over the top of a fence is the same length on each side. It weighs one third of a pound per foot. On one end hangs a monkey holding a banana, and on the other end a weight equal to the weight of the monkey. The banana weighs two ounces per inch. The rope is as long (in feet) as the age of the monkey (in years), and the weight of the monkey (in ounces) is the same as the age of the monkey's mother. The combined age of the monkey and its mother is thirty years. One half of the weight of the monkey, plus the weight of the banana, is one forth as much as the weight of the weight and the weight of the rope. The monkey's mother is half as old as the monkey will be when it is three times as old as its mother was when she she was half as old as the monkey will be when when it is as old as its mother will be when she is four times as old as the monkey was when it was twice as its mother was when she was one third as old as the monkey was when it was old as is mother was when she was three times as old as the monkey was when it was one fourth as old as it is now. How long is the banana?

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
dragonman97

SuperFan!
Member # 780

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted July 28, 2008 07:36      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Some ape-sh*t-***hole wrote:

quote:

Part II: "Oh, So You're a Moron"

quote: Originally posted by fs:
Economics: Paying $1.15 is worse than paying $1.05 for an item if you are the buyer.

HOW CAN ANYONE EXCEPT THE BUYER PAY FOR SOMETHING?!!!! (Don't answer, I can tell that your rationalizations and delusions must be nearly endless.)

If you weren't an "idiot", maybe you would understand that "all other things considered equal" for examples is a standard practice.

Don't even think of calling fs an idiot. Her comment can be read by any rationale human as 'a customer paying $1.15 is obviously better for the seller.' Ooops, I broke out the crayons and rewrote the quote to avoid further misinterpretation. Please don't get high on the Elmer's while during recess, mmkay?

Damn, iHBT; HAND all.

--------------------
There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

Posts: 9332 | From: Westchester County, New York | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan
Member # 170

Icon 1 posted July 28, 2008 07:46      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TFD wrote:

Monkeyblahblahbananablahtldrblah... How long is the banana?


Zero inches...

'cause you took so long asking the question, the monkey got hungry and ate the banana.

Posts: 6364 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
fs

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 1181

Icon 1 posted July 28, 2008 08:17      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
Don't even think of calling fs an idiot.

Of course, if ASM ever starts praising my wisdom and insight, I'm going to have to seriously reexamine where I'm coming from.

--------------------
I'm in ur database, makin' moar recordz.

Posts: 1973 | From: The Cat Ship | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
drunkennewfiemidget
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 2814

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted July 28, 2008 09:57      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
asm is a trolling retard.

/thread

Posts: 4897 | From: Cambridge, ON, Canada | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
fs

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 1181

Icon 1 posted July 28, 2008 10:13      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
asm is a trolling retard.
/thread

Point, sir. Back to the grown-up discussion, then.

quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
On a slightly depressing note, though not the majority, a disappointingly large percentage of the posts in the comments thread on this article are in support of the writer.

The Wall Street Journal generally caters to a conservative audience. Had a similar piece been posted on, say, The New York Times site, you'd have seen plenty of opposition in the comments.

And I think that a lot of rational, middle-of-the-road people are just tired of commenting. I'm not going to waste my time arguing on the internet with neocons who want to believe Bush is Batman; there are more constructive things I could be doing. There's been eight years of their crap and we're all tired of listening to their nonsense and pretending that it's something other than delusional wish-fulfillment.

Though the part about Hollywood conservatives having to "hide" their messages in action/adventure blockbusters because they are just so oppressed was pretty fsckin' funny.

--------------------
I'm in ur database, makin' moar recordz.

Posts: 1973 | From: The Cat Ship | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
drunkennewfiemidget
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 2814

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted July 28, 2008 10:27      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
asm is a trolling retard.
/thread

Point, sir. Back to the grown-up discussion, then.

Grown up discussion? There isn't one. All any conversation with ASM is:

Anyone: *something intelligent or contentious*
ASM: *blather blather blather somehow liken it to iraq being a good idea, and george w bush being the second coming of christ*
Someone: *disproving everything asm says*
ASM: *takes everything you said completely out of context to meet his own completely ass backward conclusions*
TFD: *attempts to move thread to make him stop talking and ridicules him*
ASM: *likens TFD to a terrorist*
Someone: *tries to bring thread back to original meaning*
Original poster: *tries to tell ASM he's gone off on a tangent*
ASM: *takes more quotes out of context, including things from other threads*
Everyone else: *bangs head agaist wall*

Rinse, repeat.

Posts: 4897 | From: Cambridge, ON, Canada | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
fs

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 1181

Icon 1 posted July 28, 2008 10:55      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You are absolutely right, DNM.

The problem as I see it is that we all need to get better about ignoring him, because he's not going away and it doesn't matter how tangential the topic is, once he sees people discussing something, he's like a spoiled brat kid that needs to be the center of attention or a badly trained dog that gets excited and shits on the rug.

Poster: My laptop doesn't type so well. Any recommendations on how to clean the kepboard?
<two helpful suggestions and one involving nudity and/or alcohol>
ASM: On a scale of 1 to 10 please rate "cleanliness" and "muslims." In Iran, Christians are forced to live for weeks on nothing but mushrooms and maggots for cleaning their keyboards.
<posters respond to ASM>

And then the conversation is completely derailed unless there's a conscious effort made to put it back on track.

I wish the ignore function actually filtered out his posts. I wonder if StupidFilter would work.

Maybe we could set ASM to ignored by default so newbies who are unaware of his desperate need for attention wouldn't be fooled into responding to him.

Anyway, I solemnly swear that I'm going to ignore ASM until such point as his meds work, because it's patently just not worth it (and I would hazard that the constant derailment is partly responsible for the decline in posting).

So, how 'bout that Batman-Bush comparison, folks?

--------------------
I'm in ur database, makin' moar recordz.

Posts: 1973 | From: The Cat Ship | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
drunkennewfiemidget
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 2814

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted July 28, 2008 11:19      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
Poster: My laptop doesn't type so well. Any recommendations on how to clean the kepboard?
<two helpful suggestions and one involving nudity and/or alcohol>
ASM: On a scale of 1 to 10 please rate "cleanliness" and "muslims." In Iran, Christians are forced to live for weeks on nothing but mushrooms and maggots for cleaning their keyboards.
<posters respond to ASM>

[Big Grin] [Applause] [Big Grin] [Applause] [Big Grin] [Applause] [Big Grin] [Applause]
Posts: 4897 | From: Cambridge, ON, Canada | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted July 28, 2008 13:04      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
I wish the ignore function actually filtered out his posts.

Oh lookie!

And here's what the final result looks like, half a page of ASM drivel replaced by a single line.

quote:
Screenshot:
 -


I've gotta admit, I'll kinda miss laughing derisively at ASM's surreal postings, but for the greater good, the ASM filter is enabled.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 712

Member Rated:
2
Icon 1 posted July 28, 2008 18:12      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Part I: "Self-Proclaimed" Does Not Imply Truth
quote:
Originally posted by ASM:
BTW: Your "Christian Terrorism" Wikipedia entry starts with: "This article or section may be inaccurate or unbalanced in favor of certain viewpoints", and makes the ridiculous claim that "Aryan Nations ... a white supremacist group" is "Christian terrorism."

Originally posted by shentzu:
they are self proclaimed christians, and terrorists. what part do you not understand?

So you think if it's "self-proclaimed" then it must be true? Ok, then consider this:

<begin sarcasm>
Ahem ... Hi, I'm ASM and I'm a VEGETARIAN (self-proclaimed).     Mmmmm ... I love the taste of ground-up cow meat cooked up and served on a sesame seed bun. In fact, I had a Cheeseburger today, and it was yummy. Oh, did I mention ... I'm a VEGETARIAN (self-proclaimed). </sarcasm>

Just in case you haven't figured it out -- I am not a Vegetarian, regardless of how many times I "self-proclaim" myself as one.

Generally speaking, Philosophy is one of the best tools in seeking "truth." Assuming that you actually have a Philosophy degree, THEN IT IS ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS, because you can't recognize an incredibly simple case where the validity of a statement SHOULD be questioned.
 
quote:
you are unbelievably and irrevocably stupid. end of story. i quit.
[shake head]   But you're the one who believed a statement must be true because it was "self-proclaimed" -- How pathetic.

Warning: Don't try to play "just because terrorists are self-proclaimed Muslims, that doesn't make them Muslims." Why? Well, let's say if 100 million people can agree that "you are a horse" -- then you're probably a horse.
 

Part II: Free English Lesson -- Transitive Verbs
quote:
Originally posted by ASM:
HOW CAN ANYONE EXCEPT THE BUYER PAY FOR SOMETHING?!!!!

I want to be sure that people understand that some things are done by one's self -- "breathe" and "pay" are both
transitive verbs. If you "choose" not to breathe, no one else can do it for you. Given the following example:
  • Alice gets a hat from a store.
  • Bob's money goes to the cashier of the store in the exchange.
I hope no one thinks Alice was "paying" for the hat (based only on the given information). Whoever is giving money in a sales transaction IS PAYING ("buying"). This is true even if the person paying does not receive the goods or services.
 

Part III: Free Philosophy Lesson -- Good Is Not a "Double Standard"
quote:
July 28, 2008, 07:36
Don't even think of calling fs an idiot. Her comment can be read by any rationale human as 'a customer paying $1.15 is obviously better for the seller.'

Ok, you're using a double-standard, but you probably didn't realize it because the difference $1.15 and $1.05 isn't "bad."

Original statement: Economics - Paying $1.15 is worse than paying $1.05 for an item.

Statement changed to make a point: Paying $35 for an item which has a known open market value of $1 is bad. (This statement maintains that "Paying More Is Worse" just as the original statement, the difference is that the magnitude of "worse" has been increased.)

Now for instruction in philosophy:
quote:
Instructor: Is paying $35 for an item which has a known open market value of $1 good, or bad?

Student: It's good for the seller.

FYI: "The Golden Rule" (ethic of reciprocity) is common test for good/bad.
quote:
Instructor: If the roles were reversed, would the seller want to pay $35 for an item which has a known open market value of $1?

Student: No.

At this point, you can accept the "truth" that "paying more" is "worse" (as a general rule), or you can be a hypocrite and say "paying more is worse EXCEPT WHEN SOMEONE ELSE IS PAYING ME."
 

Part IV: Common Sense -- "All Other Things Considered Equal"
quote:
If a condition for your examples is "everything else is equal" then you need to say that.
No ... because the condition "everything else is not equal" would be MORONIC.

Don't believe me? Ok, try this:
quote:
Given that the weight of Item-X is the same as the weight of Item-Y, and everything else is not equal. Logically choose one of the items as "best" and explain the basis of your decision.
Don't like that? Too bad.
 

Part V: The "Clinton Era" vs. Islamic Terrorism
quote:
you can't claim to be "the good guys."
Take a stand: Was the US under the Clinton Administration "reasonably" Good (in moral terms)?

If you answer "no" -- then it's safe to say that you simply "hate" the US.

If you answer "yes, except for retaliation against Mideast countries for attacks on US " -- then you imply that "good" is letting one's self be attacked and accepting injustice (which is Masochistic and "self-destructive").

If you answer "yes, the US was reasonably good" -- then the Islamic terrorist attacks through the eight years of Clinton's administration were unprovoked acts of war, including public declarations of war against the US, by criminals acting with the tacit support of governments in several countries, with the support of well-known non-government organizations, and by the articles of the UN, sovereign states (the US in this case) have the right to wage war in response to foreign aggressors.
 

quote:
July 27, 2008, 18:46
*hits ASM in the head with a baseball bat to get his attention*

<sigh> ... The Batman analogy shows "use of force" to deal with problems that "everyone else" has let spiral out of control. It's hyperbole.

Islamic terrorism is not based in "reason" or "civilized behavior" -- as such, "reasoning" with someone who truly believes that he's going to the highest place in heaven as soon as he sets off his car bomb in a crowded market DOES NOT WORK.

Over the course of half a century, Islamic terrorism has increased in frequency of attacks, number of active members, and damage inflicted per attack (that includes Clinton's administration). Congratulations, on decades of failure! Talk, talk, talk, insignificant retaliation, talk, talk, insignificant retaliation, talk, talk ... and then "they" bring down the World Trade Center, thoroughly pissing the Yanks.

... on the subject of "lies": the United Nations fed the US almost a decade of lies about its dealings with Saddam. Try to imagine the UN being "honest" with America......
quote:
UN: Hi America! Just wanted to let you know.... We're selling Saddam missiles to shoot at your planes, under the pretense of humanitarian aid. Oh, and we're taking bribes so Saddam can get kick-backs from about 2000 aid contractors. Oh, and some of those dual-use technologies, we're letting him get them even though they could be used for WMD. Oh, and we stopped WMD inspections for a while because ... he's giving us some really good bribes. Anyway, we wanted to tell you -- Saddam isn't doing ANYTHING bad. Thanks America! Have a nice day!
I hope no one is going to try and sell me the story that the UN really didn't know what Saddam had been doing.   [shake head]

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
shentzu
Geek
Member # 2253

Member Rated:
5
Icon 2 posted July 28, 2008 20:29      Profile for shentzu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
first, on a sad tangent....

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/jul/28/church-shooting-police-find-manifesto-suspects-car/

i guess he must be an islamic fundie, what with his terrorist act, and his reading list..... [shake head]

that is just beyond belief. behold the harvest of hate.

quote:
Point, sir. Back to the grown-up discussion, then.
what actually motivated the post of the original post was a hope to get round to the ways in which Bush actually *is* like batman.

since batman is, in most telling of the tale, created from the death of his parents, and in some versions because he feels that if his father had been stronger/fought back he wouldn't have died, and what with the elder Bushies legacy in Iraq.....

not to mention the fact that in some tellings of the tale he is an amoral manipulator, and in many ways nearly as bad as the "villains" he battles. at the very least we can classify one character trait as "obsessive."

Bob Kane once noted that "Batman is thus driven to fight crime, sometimes employing illegal and morally dubious tactics (like torture and intrusive surveillance)."

the real irony, to me, is that i have always liked batman as a story of warning, of what the human animal can do if driven to extremes, and what that human loses in the process. what humanity they sacrifice. i know that this is not the common interpretation, but it is there. so to see bush compared to him, and for the comparison to get wrong every part of the morality, and to see a monster as a hero.....

well, i thought it was interesting, but then "there is nothing so foolish but that some philosopher has said it!"

--------------------
Set a man by a fire and you keep him warm for a day, but set a man on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.

Posts: 108 | From: here and there | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
fs

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 1181

Icon 1 posted July 29, 2008 01:54      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by shentzu:
what actually motivated the post of the original post was a hope to get round to the ways in which Bush actually *is* like batman.

since batman is, in most telling of the tale, created from the death of his parents, and in some versions because he feels that if his father had been stronger/fought back he wouldn't have died, and what with the elder Bushies legacy in Iraq.....

not to mention the fact that in some tellings of the tale he is an amoral manipulator, and in many ways nearly as bad as the "villains" he battles. at the very least we can classify one character trait as "obsessive."

Bob Kane once noted that "Batman is thus driven to fight crime, sometimes employing illegal and morally dubious tactics (like torture and intrusive surveillance)."

the real irony, to me, is that i have always liked batman as a story of warning, of what the human animal can do if driven to extremes, and what that human loses in the process. what humanity they sacrifice. i know that this is not the common interpretation, but it is there. so to see bush compared to him, and for the comparison to get wrong every part of the morality, and to see a monster as a hero.....

well, i thought it was interesting, but then "there is nothing so foolish but that some philosopher has said it!"

All points well made.

Batman is outside the law. In terms of law, he is as much a criminal as those he hunts down. His vigilante activity is ignored by the authorities in many cases, sometimes even tacitly approved of, because he is able to maneuver in a way that they can't, not without facing legal repercussions themselves.

In the world of Batman, the ends justify the means, and if a pedestrian or two get mowed down while in hot pursuit of the Joker, well, "the Joker made me do it."

As far as superheroes go, I've always liked Batman because he is very human, and not necessarily a good one, or a moral one. He's the Dark Knight for a reason. But I also recognize Batman as a story, something larger than life, not something to be acted out in reality.

But, and I think this is where the article got interesting: Batman is a fiction, just as Lord of the Rings is a fiction and Narnia is fiction.

quote:
Why is it, indeed, that the conservative values that power our defense -- values like morality, faith, self-sacrifice and the nobility of fighting for the right -- only appear in fantasy or comic-inspired films like "300," "Lord of the Rings," "Narnia," "Spiderman 3" and now "The Dark Knight"?
Part of the fantasy component is the ability of heroes to act without the constraints imposed by the real world, without oversight, without review, and most of all, without accountablility. The other major fantasy component is that there is a clear-cut delineation of "right" and "wrong" where, if you are right, someone who sees things differently must be wrong. It's a convenient world view, to embrace the idea that there can be only one way of being right. And twisting that logic, it also follows that there can be only one way of being wrong. It must be a comfort to believe that as long as you aren't what you identify as "wrong" (gay, Muslim, Democrat) then you must, by default, be "right."

--------------------
I'm in ur database, makin' moar recordz.

Posts: 1973 | From: The Cat Ship | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted July 29, 2008 02:26      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
The other major fantasy component is that there is a clear-cut delineation of "right" and "wrong" where, if you are right, someone who sees things differently must be wrong. It's a convenient world view, to embrace the idea that there can be only one way of being right. And twisting that logic, it also follows that there can be only one way of being wrong. It must be a comfort to believe that as long as you aren't what you identify as "wrong" (gay, Muslim, Democrat) then you must, by default, be "right."

It's that need for certainty in an uncertain world, and the willingness to be certain, based on little other than prejudice against those different from themselves, that characterises the worst kind of right-winger.

For example, I saw this qoute today...
quote:
Radio talk-show host Michael Savage:
"I'll tell you what autism is. In 99% of the cases, it's a brat who hasn't been told to cut the act out."

 
Translation: These people aren't like me, therefor they're 'wrong'.
There's no need to look at facts to determine if they have a real problem (reality has a well-known Liberal bias), they deserve no sympathy or understanding, they're scum who need a good kick up the arse.


--

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
fs

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 1181

Icon 1 posted July 29, 2008 03:44      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
It's that need for certainty in an uncertain world, and the willingness to be certain, based on little other than prejudice against those different from themselves, that characterises the worst kind of right-winger.

For example, I saw this qoute today...
quote:
Radio talk-show host Michael Savage:
"I'll tell you what autism is. In 99% of the cases, it's a brat who hasn't been told to cut the act out."

 
Translation: These people aren't like me, therefor they're 'wrong'.
There's no need to look at facts to determine if they have a real problem (reality has a well-known Liberal bias), they deserve no sympathy or understanding, they're scum who need a good kick up the arse.

I understand the desire for certainty, and I have a certain amount of empathy for them, despite all their failings. They are afraid of everything, and they hate being afraid, so they hate the things they fear and embrace anyone who promises (no matter how empty) to protect them. It's ugly, but it's also sad as hell.

(Also, I've blogged the Batman article.)

--------------------
I'm in ur database, makin' moar recordz.

Posts: 1973 | From: The Cat Ship | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
drunkennewfiemidget
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 2814

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted July 29, 2008 06:33      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
I wish the ignore function actually filtered out his posts.

Oh lookie!

And here's what the final result looks like, half a page of ASM drivel replaced by a single line.

quote:
Screenshot:
 -


I've gotta admit, I'll kinda miss laughing derisively at ASM's surreal postings, but for the greater good, the ASM filter is enabled.

I was the one who wrote that ASM ignorer. I might rewrite it by itself into a freely available greasemonkey script.
Posts: 4897 | From: Cambridge, ON, Canada | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
shentzu
Geek
Member # 2253

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted July 29, 2008 07:41      Profile for shentzu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fs:

Batman is outside the law. In terms of law, he is as much a criminal as those he hunts down. His vigilante activity is ignored by the authorities in many cases, sometimes even tacitly approved of, because he is able to maneuver in a way that they can't, not without facing legal repercussions themselves.

which of course doesn't make what he does immoral. in fact if the law were to be immoral, the moral act would be to break it.

but he routinely breaks laws that he expects others to follow. the morality is situational.

TFA says something about how both Batman and Bush "know they have to push the boundaries of the law, but the boundaries will be established when the emergency is past.

the fact that in both cases, the emergency will never pass, certainly shouldn't worry us.... [shake head]

quote:
In the world of Batman, the ends justify the means, and if a pedestrian or two get mowed down while in hot pursuit of the Joker, well, "the Joker made me do it."
and in many moral theories as well, the ends justify the means within certain bounds. the most popular phrasing is that a lie may be wrong, but a lie to the Nazis to save a jewish family you shelter is right.

the problem with situational morality, or rather *one* of the problems, is that it requires a perfect awareness of the situation. in a comic book, an author has that, and imparts it as he sees fit to the characters. Bush, as much as i shudder to say it, is real. if even my flawed understanding of the situations we face can see that the cure in many ways causes the illness, his awareness is limited.

quote:
As far as superheroes go, I've always liked Batman because he is very human, and not necessarily a good one, or a moral one. He's the Dark Knight for a reason. But I also recognize Batman as a story, something larger than life, not something to be acted out in reality.
exactly the reasons i like him as well. characters like superman are too large, too phony, uninteresting. Batman is interesting because of the humanity, and often loss of humanity, of the hero.

quote:
But, and I think this is where the article got interesting: Batman is a fiction, just as Lord of the Rings is a fiction and Narnia is fiction.

Part of the fantasy component is the ability of heroes to act without the constraints imposed by the real world, without oversight, without review, and most of all, without accountablility. The other major fantasy component is that there is a clear-cut delineation of "right" and "wrong" where, if you are right, someone who sees things differently must be wrong. It's a convenient world view, to embrace the idea that there can be only one way of being right. And twisting that logic, it also follows that there can be only one way of being wrong. It must be a comfort to believe that as long as you aren't what you identify as "wrong" (gay, Muslim, Democrat) then you must, by default, be "right."

it is a new twist on the old western. "goods guys wear white hats." see the hats? white. so we are the good guys, thus what we do is good....

i have wondered about that thinking in the torture debate. is that how they claim that they don't torture?

"look, torture is bad, we are good, therefore we don't torture. therefore what we are doing isn't torture. what is it? must need a new name.... extreme questioning!"

at which point i have to reference http://www.geekculture.com/ultimatebb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=003713

so long as reality is filtered by the perception that we are the good guys%2

Posts: 108 | From: here and there | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
shentzu
Geek
Member # 2253

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted July 29, 2008 07:45      Profile for shentzu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fs:

Batman is outside the law. In terms of law, he is as much a criminal as those he hunts down. His vigilante activity is ignored by the authorities in many cases, sometimes even tacitly approved of, because he is able to maneuver in a way that they can't, not without facing legal repercussions themselves.

which of course doesn't make what he does immoral. in fact if the law were to be immoral, the moral act would be to break it.

but he routinely breaks laws that he expects others to follow. the morality is situational.

TFA says something about how both Batman and Bush "know they have to push the boundaries of the law, but the boundaries will be established when the emergency is past.

the fact that in both cases, the emergency will never pass, certainly shouldn't worry us.... [shake head]

quote:
In the world of Batman, the ends justify the means, and if a pedestrian or two get mowed down while in hot pursuit of the Joker, well, "the Joker made me do it."
and in many moral theories as well, the ends justify the means within certain bounds. the most popular phrasing is that a lie may be wrong, but a lie to the Nazis to save a jewish family you shelter is right.

the problem with situational morality, or rather *one* of the problems, is that it requires a perfect awareness of the situation. in a comic book, an author has that, and imparts it as he sees fit to the characters. Bush, as much as i shudder to say it, is real. if even my flawed understanding of the situations we face can see that the cure in many ways causes the illness, his awareness is limited.

quote:
As far as superheroes go, I've always liked Batman because he is very human, and not necessarily a good one, or a moral one. He's the Dark Knight for a reason. But I also recognize Batman as a story, something larger than life, not something to be acted out in reality.
exactly the reasons i like him as well. characters like superman are too large, too phony, uninteresting. Batman is interesting because of the humanity, and often loss of humanity, of the hero.

quote:
But, and I think this is where the article got interesting: Batman is a fiction, just as Lord of the Rings is a fiction and Narnia is fiction.

Part of the fantasy component is the ability of heroes to act without the constraints imposed by the real world, without oversight, without review, and most of all, without accountablility. The other major fantasy component is that there is a clear-cut delineation of "right" and "wrong" where, if you are right, someone who sees things differently must be wrong. It's a convenient world view, to embrace the idea that there can be only one way of being right. And twisting that logic, it also follows that there can be only one way of being wrong. It must be a comfort to believe that as long as you aren't what you identify as "wrong" (gay, Muslim, Democrat) then you must, by default, be "right."

it is a new twist on the old western. "goods guys wear white hats." see the hats? white. so we are the good guys, thus what we do is good....

i have wondered about that thinking in the torture debate. is that how they claim that they don't torture?

"look, torture is bad, we are good, therefore we don't torture. therefore what we are doing isn't torture. what is it? must need a new name.... extreme questioning!"

at which point i have to reference http://www.geekculture.com/ultimatebb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=003713

so long as reality is filtered by the perception that we are the good guys, what we do is good. by definition.

quote:
TFD:

It's that need for certainty in an uncertain world, and the willingness to be certain, based on little other than prejudice against those different from themselves, that characterises the worst kind of right-winger.

or the worst kind of anything for that matter.

Bertrand Russell once said that "In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted. "

and that is one of the things that makes the comic book portrayal interesting. in the good stories, you can see that the hero doubts. but he acts anyway.

it is the lack of both doubt and thought that frightens me about the "real life batman."

--------------------
Set a man by a fire and you keep him warm for a day, but set a man on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.

Posts: 108 | From: here and there | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
spungo
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1089

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted July 29, 2008 11:56      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by shentzu:


Bertrand Russell once said that "In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted. "

Nice quote, dude. (I've tried quoting old Berty many times IRL... but most folks look at me like I'm some grade A nutbar... *insert obvious retort here*. [Wink] )

--------------------
Shameless plug. (Please forgive me.)

Posts: 6529 | From: Noba Scoba | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged


All times are Eastern Time
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Geek Culture Home Page

2015 Geek Culture

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.4.0


homeGeek CultureWebstoreeCards!Forums!Joy of Tech!AY2K!webcam