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Author Topic: Atheist soldier sues Army for 'unconstitutional' discrimination
fs

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Icon 1 posted July 11, 2008 05:04      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Can't believe I beat CP to it.

Atheist soldier sues Army for 'unconstitutional' discrimination

quote:
Michael Weinstein, a retired senior Air Force officer and founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, is suing along with Hall. Weinstein said he's been contacted by more than 8,000 members of the military, almost all of them complaining of pressure to embrace evangelical Christianity.
Eight thousand. 8,000. Eight, followed by three zeros. That's a problem that needs to be addressed seriously. (Care to venture the odds on that happening before next January?)

Taking people in what is probably the most stressful, emotionally vulnerable time in their lives and using it to pressure and manipulate them into your religion is sickening and repellent.

Every individual and organization who has made it their personal mission to "Christianize" the military should be deeply ashamed.

quote:
Undersecretary Bill Carr said complaints of evangelizing are "relatively rare." He also said the Pentagon is not pushing one faith among troops.
For values of "relatively rare" that equal eight thousand, I guess.

quote:
Weinstein said he doesn't buy it and points to a promotional video by a group called Christian Embassy. The video, which shows U.S. generals in uniform, was shot inside the Pentagon. The generals were subsequently reprimanded.

Another group, the Officers' Christian Fellowship, has representatives on nearly all military bases worldwide. Its vision, which is spelled out on the organization's Web site, reads, "A spiritually transformed military, with ambassadors for Christ in uniform empowered by the Holy Spirit."

Lends some credence to the thought that there are groups out there, not all of them outside the military, that really think current U.S. foreign policy is about picking up where the crusades left off.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted July 11, 2008 06:39      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Generals for Jesus".

I guess they must have been practicing their nuclear launch codes when the padre covered "blessed are the meek".

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Icon 1 posted July 11, 2008 06:41      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And this has absolutely nothing to do with why *they* hate us after the last time we 'visited' ...

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted July 11, 2008 07:11      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
Every individual and organization who has made it their personal mission to "Christianize" anyone should be lynched. Publically.

FTFY. [Smile]
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Night Q. Hand
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Icon 1 posted July 11, 2008 09:22      Profile for Night Q. Hand   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
Every individual and organization who has made it their personal mission to "Christianize" anyone should be lynched. Publically.

FTFY. [Smile]
I'm with you!
Tolerance is the word of the hour!
Forcing soldiers to christianity makes me puke. Another reason, why I wouldn't join the U.S. Armed Forces! Thanks again to random events for being born in Germany!

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Icon 1 posted July 11, 2008 16:01      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Night Q. Hand:
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
Every individual and organization who has made it their personal mission to "Christianize" anyone should be lynched. Publically.

FTFY. [Smile]
I'm with you!
Tolerance is the word of the hour!

The above doesn't strike me as very tolerant, though.

That said, it is wrong for officers to be evangelizing. It's one thing for a person to be open about what they believe and be willing to discuss it with others if they ask, but it's clearly unethical for a person in authority to push those beliefs on those they are responsible for. It's unfortunate that a number in the upper levels of the military have apparently lost sight of that.

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted July 11, 2008 22:58      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Night Q. Hand:
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
Every individual and organization who has made it their personal mission to "Christianize" anyone should be lynched. Publically.

FTFY. [Smile]
I'm with you!
Tolerance is the word of the hour!

The above doesn't strike me as very tolerant, though.

That said, it is wrong for officers to be evangelizing. It's one thing for a person to be open about what they believe and be willing to discuss it with others if they ask, but it's clearly unethical for a person in authority to push those beliefs on those they are responsible for. It's unfortunate that a number in the upper levels of the military have apparently lost sight of that.

It's plenty tolerant. You believe in WHATEVER you want to believe in. If you want to believe that I will burn in hell for all eternity for my sins, feel free.

If I ask you "hey, so you're a Christian. can you tell me more about it?", feel free.

If I'm sitting in my living room watching hockey, and you come to my door and start telling me I need to "find Jesus", don't be surprised if I tell you "I found him, he was under the couch the whole time" and slam the door in your face.

And that's about the NICEST thing I've done to people who try and evangelize me on MY fucking doorstep.

The audacity.

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ASM65816
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Icon 5 posted July 12, 2008 01:49      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Just curious, could you (people) associate a numeric rating with the "badness"/"evilness" of various activities?

Let's say:
  • 0 = nothing / no bother / "it's not bad at all"
  • 10 = Someone tells you to consider believing in Christianity (really, really horrible(?) -- at least for "Liberals")
 
Using a linear scale, where is "Put to death by members of your religion, for interpreting god's word differently or expressing belief in a different religion"?

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Icon 1 posted July 12, 2008 01:58      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
<laughing-till-the-arches-in-my-feet-invent-quantum-geometry-and-become-Möbius-strips-in-the-sixth-dimension>

And the troll takes the bait!

So very, very predictable.
So very, very funny.

ASM, you give the phrase "One Trick Pony" a whole ... um ... it's exact original meaning.


As The Artist Formerly Known As Prince said to Caligula at the 1957 Grammy Awards, "Mijn brein doet pijn"

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fs

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Icon 1 posted July 12, 2008 05:42      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
That said, it is wrong for officers to be evangelizing. It's one thing for a person to be open about what they believe and be willing to discuss it with others if they ask, but it's clearly unethical for a person in authority to push those beliefs on those they are responsible for. It's unfortunate that a number in the upper levels of the military have apparently lost sight of that.

It's also wrong for peers to be evangelizing, not just superiors. The superior officers should be putting a stop to it. The workplace--especially a high stress, dangerous workplace--is not a location where people should be carrying out their own personal missionary endeavors.

There is a difference between being "open about what they believe and be willing to discuss it with others if they ask" and shoving it in other people's faces. Organizations that are formed with the purpose of evangelizing and converting soldiers have no place on military bases, regardless of whether it's the ommanding general or the lowliest private pimping for them.

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Night Q. Hand
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Icon 1 posted July 12, 2008 08:37      Profile for Night Q. Hand   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That was by far the funniest thing I read all day ASM! Thank you so much! This is f$cking great! Do you practice these things or is it improvised?

But, since I'm in the mood for a little discussion without sense, let's start:

Have you ever thought about the meaning of the word liberalism? Well it comes from the latin word "liber", which means "free". Liberalism is a political attitude, stating that the state should give it's citizens the biggest freedom possible. Now what does that have to do with christianity? Nothing, as long as it's not the official state religion, in which case liberals would have to oppose only the sole fact that there is a state religion (not the religion per se).

So, just don't blame everything on liberals, or "Liberals", as you like to call them, and please stop talking Republican.

As for your question... that would be at least 120....

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fs

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Icon 1 posted July 12, 2008 08:43      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Night Q. Hand:
As for your question... that would be at least 120....

If we were rating things for pointlessness and futility, responding to ASM would go to 11.

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tweety
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Icon 1 posted July 12, 2008 08:44      Profile for tweety   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
Just curious, could you (people) associate a numeric rating with the "badness"/"evilness" of various activities?

Let's say:
  • 0 = nothing / no bother / "it's not bad at all"
  • 10 = Someone tells you to consider believing in Christianity (really, really horrible(?) -- at least for "Liberals")
 
Using a linear scale, where is "Put to death by members of your religion, for interpreting god's word differently or expressing belief in a different religion."

TFD – First, I apologize to you, but, I have to do this. I know, I must be sick in the head.

ASM – Please see your post above, fully quoted. The whole thing. Now, didn't I already mention to you that by doing what your doing, by posting what you post, the way you write it, your words, you make yourself out to be a nutjob? Now, I'm not calling you a nutjob, but, let's be honest, others here have.

If you want to be taken seriously, and not derided, laughed at, scorned or ridiculed, you might want to dial the vitriol back a bit. I'm not saying your ideas have no merit, its just the setting that makes them dingy. Think of a beautiful, magnificently radiant diamond set in horse shit. Well, your posts, the words, the content and context are horse shit. The idea might be golden, radiant, beautiful, worthy of the gods.

Here's where you went wrong:
quote:
[*]10 = Someone tells you to consider believing in Christianity (really, really horrible(?) -- at least for "Liberals")
First off, no "liberal" worth their place in society would think the above is a 10 on a 0 - 10 scale. Maybe a 5, but not a 10. But, hey, for me a 5 is a fairly common everyday annoyance. Also, and I want to make this very, very clear, someone who is liberal is not necessarily a Democrat. And, Democrats are not necessarily liberal. You're confusing Democrat with liberal.

Let me give you the definition, at least from a political viewpoint, of the word "liberal" according to the Oxford American Dictionary as supplied by Apple, via Mac OS X 10.4.11:

quote:
open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values : they have more liberal views toward marriage and divorce than some people.
• favorable to or respectful of individual rights and freedoms : liberal citizenship laws.
• (in a political context) favoring maximum individual liberty in political and social reform : a liberal democratic state.
• ( Liberal) of or characteristic of Liberals or a Liberal Party.
• ( Liberal) (in the UK) of or relating to the Liberal Democrat Party : the Liberal leader.
• Theology regarding many traditional beliefs as dispensable, invalidated by modern thought, or liable to change.

Now, as you profess to having above average reading comprehension skills, I trust that what you got out that definition in no way indicates someone who is liberal would be antagonistic toward any religious belief.

The United States of America was founded on liberal ideology. If conservatism was the founding bedrock on which this nation stands, we'd be part of the British Commonwealth.

Please, in the future, use the correct terminology and keep the hysterics to yourself.

EDIT: While typing this long rant is looks like fs and Night Q. Hand got here before I did. Regardless, the above still stands.

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fs

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Icon 12 posted July 12, 2008 08:49      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I recommend reading the post above at least three times, to truly savor and appreciate it.

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Night Q. Hand
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Icon 1 posted July 12, 2008 09:38      Profile for Night Q. Hand   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
I recommend reading the post above at least three times, to truly savor and appreciate it.

I agree! Good Job Tweety !

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted July 12, 2008 17:03      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by tweety:
TFD – First, I apologize to you, but, I have to do this. I know, I must be sick in the head.

No, not sick in the head, you just haven't yet realized the futility of trying to reason with ASM. Yet.

Once you understand that ASM is the internet equivalent of a Krusty The Clown doll (push his button and he responds with one of a small collection of aggressive pre-recorded comments) you'll either avoid him, or laugh along with me at the surreal wonder of it all.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted July 13, 2008 01:19      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Night Q. Hand:
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
Every individual and organization who has made it their personal mission to "Christianize" anyone should be lynched. Publically.

FTFY. [Smile]
I'm with you!
Tolerance is the word of the hour!

The above doesn't strike me as very tolerant, though.

That said, it is wrong for officers to be evangelizing. It's one thing for a person to be open about what they believe and be willing to discuss it with others if they ask, but it's clearly unethical for a person in authority to push those beliefs on those they are responsible for. It's unfortunate that a number in the upper levels of the military have apparently lost sight of that.

It's plenty tolerant. You believe in WHATEVER you want to believe in. If you want to believe that I will burn in hell for all eternity for my sins, feel free.

If I ask you "hey, so you're a Christian. can you tell me more about it?", feel free.

If I'm sitting in my living room watching hockey, and you come to my door and start telling me I need to "find Jesus", don't be surprised if I tell you "I found him, he was under the couch the whole time" and slam the door in your face.

And that's about the NICEST thing I've done to people who try and evangelize me on MY fucking doorstep.

The audacity.

I agree the door-to-door evangelists can be pretty annoying, but if someone really feels the need to evangelize, I consider it better than a number of other situations, because the person in the home is in control. They can cut off the evangelist at any time simply by closing the door.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted July 13, 2008 01:52      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The point missed in much of the above discussion is that TFA isn't about "evangelizing" (which would be bad enough) - it's about victimizing a soldier for his (lack of) religious beliefs, which is far worse.

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Icon 1 posted July 13, 2008 09:20      Profile for tweety   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
One of the things drilled in my head throughout many of my college courses is that an organizations culture is directly attributable to its leadership. If the hired help is going about doing something, then it is because the top leadership, in some way, condones that behavior. Whether or not the leadership actively promotes certain behavior is irrelevant. If it continues without leadership intervention, then it is condoned, supported, promoted.

If what Army Spc. Jeremy Hall and Michael Weinstein, along with 8,000 other soldiers, contend is true, then absolutely the top military brass (including it's civilian elected Commander-in-Chief) is condoning and promoting an Evangelical army. Which would be a direct violation of American Constitutional guarantees.

So, while I agree with you, TFD, about the main point, the bigger picture is really whether or not we've got a culture of creating and promoting an Evangelical Christian Army in a country wherein separation of Church and State is a cornerstone of founding principles. Much, much scarier.

Anyone ever read Revolt in 2100 by Heinlein?

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Icon 1 posted July 13, 2008 12:56      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
NQH: Great link, btw!

It led me to this, which is comparably fantastic:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ueI1jTx4cMA

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted July 13, 2008 21:28      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by tweety:
... would think the above is a 10 on a 0 - 10 scale.

Ok ... does your browser have "Find"? ... Yes? Well, good.

#include <sarcasm.h>
Search my post again. Find the word "scale" ... found it? Good.

Now look just before "scale" for the phrase "on a 0 to 10" .... Haven't found it? Look again.

Maybe if you look for "0 - 10" just before "scale" ... No? Didn't find that either?

Well, that would be ... BECAUSE IT WASN'T THERE!!! </sarcasm>
 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM:
Using a linear scale, ....

In this case "linear" means that "5" is half of "10", and "20" is twice as much as "10".
 

quote:
July 12, 2008 08:37
Have you ever thought about the meaning of the word liberalism?

Yup ... and some people call themselves "liberals" when their behavior and beliefs are more indicative of anarchy.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted July 13, 2008 22:02      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ASM65816 wrote:
Let's say:
  • 0 = nothing / no bother / "it's not bad at all"
  • 10 = Someone tells you to consider believing in Christianity (really, really horrible(?) -- at least for "Liberals")
 
Using a linear scale, where is "Put to death by members of your religion, for interpreting god's word differently or expressing belief in a different religion."


Umm... I have a question. How is that not a 0 to 10 scale?

Granted, you might extend the scale to allow for things that go beyond 10, but you've defined point 0 and point 10, making a scale that goes from 0 to 10.

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2008 00:04      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
July 13, 2008 22:02
Umm... I have a question. How is that not a 0 to 10 scale?

It's like the temperature scale measured in degrees Fahrenheit or Celsius: Two "arbitrary" points (one of them being "0"), and measurements extend beyond both points at defined intervals in an unknown range.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2008 02:43      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
<laughing-till-my-intestinal-flora-and-fauna-are-listed-on-the-endangered-species-list-and-pose-for-World-Wildlife-Fund-posters>

ASM: you clearly stated a 0 to 10 scale, your attempts to deny it now are lies™.

As Francis Einstein said to Albert Bacon after inventing the whoopie-cushion: "y ahora algo completamente diferente".

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2008 11:59      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
Yup ... and some people call themselves "liberals" when their behavior and beliefs are more indicative of anarchy.

Some people call themselves "geeks" when their behvaiour is more indicative of "morons".

You can't win 'em all, I suppose.

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