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Author Topic: Canada mounts armed hijacking of Dutch yacht
Zwilnik

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Icon 1 posted April 13, 2008 14:57      Profile for Zwilnik   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://www.seashepherd.org/news/media_080412_1.html

Looks like China's not the only country that beats up photographers that take pictures of stuff they don't want you to see.

This comes not long after the Canadian Coastguard managed to kill 4 seal hunters while towing them through the ice.

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Mr. Dave
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Icon 1 posted April 13, 2008 15:20      Profile for Mr. Dave     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Isn't this the same Sea Shepherd outfit that parked outside St. John's (I think) harbour on opening day a few years ago and threatened to ram any sealers that tried to leave?

They weren't arrested for photographing the hunt; anyone with a decent telephoto lens can do that, and more power to 'em. These guys were arrested for trying to interfere with the hunt. It's the same as if they had tried to buzz longliners off the Grand Banks or the Scottish coast to scare the fish away. Except that the seal hunters have guns, so the protesters were arrested as much for their own protection as anything else.

Moreover, I find your comparison between the seal hunt and the occupation of Tibet both specious and nauseatingly offensive. The seal hunters have both a legal and (IMNSHO) a moral right to hunt to earn their livelihood. The Sea Shepherd and the other protesters do not have the right to deny them that livelihood, or to threaten violence against anyone who doesn't share their particular dogma.

You're from Newcastle; try organizing a group to stop the coal miners from going down the pits because "burning coal is bad for the environment" and see how far you get.

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Zwilnik

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Icon 1 posted April 13, 2008 15:47      Profile for Zwilnik   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And Sea Shepherd have a legal and moral right to photograph the cruel and needless slaughter of animals by people who are ill trained and sponsored by a fisheries department that wiped out their own fishing stock.

Sea Shepherd haven't rammed or even gone near any Canadian ships this year and have stuck to international waters. Despite being rammed twice by Canadian coastguard vessels and attacked by fishermen.

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stevenback7
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Icon 1 posted April 13, 2008 16:23      Profile for stevenback7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Canada doesn't defend its own waters against real threats. But will illegally capture a harmless yacht in International waters.

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Mr. Dave
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Icon 1 posted April 13, 2008 19:48      Profile for Mr. Dave     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by stevenback7:
Canada doesn't defend its own waters against real threats. But will illegally capture a harmless yacht in International waters.

Okay, wait - International waters? According to my atlas Cabot Strait runs between Nova Scotia (which is part of Canada) and Newfoundland (which is also part of Canada) - what "Inter" exactly are we talking about here? By that logic, would Lake Michigan (which is about the same width) be "International" waters?

In any case, they were certainly far within the 200-mile Fisheries limit which, by International treaty, makes them subject to Canadian fisheries regulations. And with a long history of inciting violence to disrupt the hunt, Paul Watson is hardly "harmless."

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Mr. Dave
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Icon 1 posted April 13, 2008 20:07      Profile for Mr. Dave     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
For the benefit of those whose sole source of information on the seal hunt is Sea Shepherd prop- er, press releases, here's some background. The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, despite being a Crown corporation, is no more sympathetic to the "party line" than any other press organization that isn't News Corp.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted April 13, 2008 20:42      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Dave:
Okay, wait - International waters? According to my atlas Cabot Strait runs between Nova Scotia (which is part of Canada) and Newfoundland (which is also part of Canada) - what "Inter" exactly are we talking about here?

That's "international waters" - as in "Not any nations territorial waters"

By your logic, all of the Pacific between California and Hawaii should be considered "American Waters" - that's not how the law works.


quote:

In any case, they were certainly far within the 200-mile Fisheries limit which, by International treaty, makes them subject to Canadian fisheries regulations.

And if they were fishing there, Canada would have a legal right to do something about it.
But they were only taking photographs, Canada had no legal right to interfere.

Bloody Canadians, nothing but trouble the lot of 'em.

[edit] Hmmm, according to this article
quote:
From TFA:
Under Canadian law, it is illegal to watch, photograph, or video tape the death of a seal without the permission of Fisheries Minister

This might change the legalities a bit, but the fact remains that they've been arrested for trying to show the world something the Canadian government would prefer we not see.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted April 13, 2008 21:06      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TFD wrote:
By your logic, all of the Pacific between California and Hawaii should be considered "American Waters" - that's not how the law works.

Dude! Don't be giving Bush any more bright ideas!

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted April 13, 2008 23:10      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Erm, TFD, according to my globe (which is free of the distortions a flat map has [Wink] ) there's an ever so slight difference in scale between the Cabot Strait and half the Pacific Ocean. Certainly enough difference that the Law of the Sea applies a bit differently to the two cases. [Razz]

/me kicks back to watch the Canadians brawl with the Dutch

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Mr. Dave
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Icon 1 posted April 13, 2008 23:29      Profile for Mr. Dave     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:

/me kicks back to watch the Canadians brawl with the Dutch

According to the CBC, Foreign Affairs notified the Netherlands on March 29 of the Farley Mowat's presence. As of Sunday, the Dutch foreign ministry was "looking into it."

Hope you're comfy, Xan - this might take a while. [Razz]

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Mr. Dave
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Icon 1 posted April 13, 2008 23:57      Profile for Mr. Dave     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
That's "international waters" - as in "Not any nations territorial waters"

By your logic, all of the Pacific between California and Hawaii should be considered "American Waters"

Not really a good comparison. Cabot Strait is more like Cook Strait, if Cape Farewell reached all the way to New Plymouth.

Or maybe Investigator Strait would be a better example.

quote:
quote:

In any case, they were certainly far within the 200-mile Fisheries limit which, by International treaty, makes them subject to Canadian fisheries regulations.

And if they were fishing there, Canada would have a legal right to do something about it.
But they were only taking photographs, Canada had no legal right to interfere.


I didn't say fishing regulations, I said fisheries regulations, which covers hunting of marine mammals.

quote:

[edit] Hmmm, according to this article
quote:
From TFA:
Under Canadian law, it is illegal to watch, photograph, or video tape the death of a seal without the permission of Fisheries Minister

This might change the legalities a bit, but the fact remains that they've been arrested for trying to show the world something the Canadian government would prefer we not see.
Of course. That's why there's only a dozen or so foreign animal-rights organizations who have been authorized to observe the hunt, and who seem to be able to do so without disrupting the hunt or endangering the hunters.

/me looks at preceeding post:

Holy Carp, I'm getting long-winded in my old age...

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted April 14, 2008 00:39      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Erm, TFD, according to my globe (which is free of the distortions a flat map has [Wink] ) there's an ever so slight difference in scale between the Cabot Strait and half the Pacific Ocean.

That was the point I was trying to make, scale matters, not "We own both sides of it, so we own all of it".

Territorial waters are 12 nautical miles, unless that overlaps someone else's territorial waters.

The area where the Sea Shepherd ship was arrested is outside the 12 nm limit, which puts it in the Exclusive Economic Zone.
quote:
Wikipedia:
A coastal nation has control of all economic resources within its exclusive economic zone, including fishing, mining, oil exploration, and any pollution of those resources. However, it cannot regulate or prohibit passage or loitering above, on, or under the surface of the sea, whether innocent or belligerent, within that portion of its exclusive economic zone beyond its territorial sea.



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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted April 14, 2008 02:05      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Dave:
Not really a good comparison. Cabot Strait is more like Cook Strait, if Cape Farewell reached all the way to New Plymouth.

Or maybe Investigator Strait would be a better example.

Cook strait is 20 km (about 11 nm) wide.

I don't have an exact figure for Investigator Strait, but my rough measurements with a bit of paper held up to the PC screen make it about 20 nm wide.

In both cases, the 12 nm limit from one body of land overlaps the 12 nm limit of the other.

Cabot Strait is 110 km (60 nm) wide, which leaves about 36 nm of international waters in the middle.

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted April 14, 2008 07:45      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Cook strait is 20 km (about 11 nm) wide.
Arg! Mixing up units makes the baby jebus cry.

20km = 20 000 000 000 000 nm (nanometers). Surely there is a different abbreviation/symbol for nautical miles?

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Stereo

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Icon 2 posted April 14, 2008 09:08      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The main problem I have is that humanity has survived for thousands (if not a million or so) years by hunting, eating the meat and wearing the skin of animals - whatever animals available around the human settlement. But nowadays, some activists would like all humans to go against what have been imprinted in human's genes through so many generations, for the "rights of animals".

So why don't they go protest overfishing? It's a lot more important for human survival. Why don't they lobby for the reintroduction of wolves? Their elimination/severe reduction in some parts of Europe now causes problems because the herbivores are too numerous and eat the crops, reducing the amount available to humans. Oh, right, fishes aren't as cute, and wolves are dangerous. Rights for all animals, or only for the cute, harmless ones?

(Or are they only protesting the groups who are too poor to defend themselves properly?)

Me? I prefer a more down-to-earth approach, the one that has been known and used by so many "savages" before "civilization": respect the balance of nature, don't overkill, protect your prey's habitat, and thus make sure future generations will have enough to eat, too. So let the hunter kill the seals, as long as they don't compromise their population. But stop the rogue fishboats not respecting their already-too-generous-for-the-reminaining-fish-population quota. Oh, and bring back the natural predators wherever needed. Just protect your cheptel better, and teach the kids not to go in the woods alone. Oh, and why not make sure there's enough forest left, too. [Mad]

Crazy humans putting off the fire in the stove while the house is burning. [shake head]

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drunkennewfiemidget
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quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
The main problem I have is that humanity has survived for thousands (if not a million or so) years by hunting, eating the meat and wearing the skin of animals - whatever animals available around the human settlement. But nowadays, some activists would like all humans to go against what have been imprinted in human's genes through so many generations, for the "rights of animals".

So why don't they go protest overfishing? It's a lot more important for human survival. Why don't they lobby for the reintroduction of wolves? Their elimination/severe reduction in some parts of Europe now causes problems because the herbivores are too numerous and eat the crops, reducing the amount available to humans. Oh, right, fishes aren't as cute, and wolves are dangerous. Rights for all animals, or only for the cute, harmless ones?

(Or are they only protesting the groups who are too poor to defend themselves properly?)

Me? I prefer a more down-to-earth approach, the one that has been known and used by so many "savages" before "civilization": respect the balance of nature, don't overkill, protect your prey's habitat, and thus make sure future generations will have enough to eat, too. So let the hunter kill the seals, as long as they don't compromise their population. But stop the rogue fishboats not respecting their already-too-generous-for-the-reminaining-fish-population quota. Oh, and bring back the natural predators wherever needed. Just protect your cheptel better, and teach the kids not to go in the woods alone. Oh, and why not make sure there's enough forest left, too. [Mad]

Crazy humans putting off the fire in the stove while the house is burning. [shake head]

They only care about the cute ones.

Cus y'know, in the wild, lions kill gazelles quickly and painlessly. [Roll Eyes]

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted April 14, 2008 13:34      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
Me? I prefer a more down-to-earth approach, the one that has been known and used by so many "savages" before "civilization": respect the balance of nature, don't overkill, protect your prey's habitat, and thus make sure future generations will have enough to eat, too.

Actually, having spent some time with 'savages' (tribal hunter-gatherers) in Africa and South America, I can assure you they're not the careful stewards of nature the hippies would have us believe.

Need a bag to carry your fish home?

Strip the bark from a tree (thus killing it) to make the bag, use the bag for an hour, then throw it away. Next time you need another bag, just kill another tree, it's easier than carrying a bag around in case you'll need it.

You can get away with this cavalier disregard for nature when 25 people share 2000 km^2 of jungle, but that attitude doesn't scale very well when 6 billion of us share one small planet.

When you do find tribal people carefully managing the environment, (for example pre-colonial Polynesians) it's usually because their ancestors fscked things up so badly they were eating each other, population crashed, and the survivors vowed never to make that mistake again. As a species, we have a habit of only learning important lessons the hard way.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted April 14, 2008 13:43      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
Arg! Mixing up units makes the baby jebus cry.

20km = 20 000 000 000 000 nm (nanometers).

I know New Zealand is a small country, but they don't measure their territorial waters in nanometers. [Wink]

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted April 14, 2008 13:55      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
As a species, we have a habit of only learning important lessons the hard way.

I agree. My comment might just be the reflect that when your errors have direct impact on your family and immediate community, you learn the lesson a lot faster and better than when it's a far-away society who suffers because you over-used its resources. But we're coming dangerously close to the point the whole humanity will suffer from the bad choices of small part of the population.

The recent jump in the price of rice is just a beginning. When remaining fishes will be so few that their prices will skyrocket too, local population will likely stop exporting their resources (if only because they will be seized by angry local population). The US are already almost bankrupt from their war in Irak, do you think they'll be able send soldiers to secure food importations? If they do, they'll need to raise taxes by a large amount, and will probably put the price of necessities beyond the reach of its poorest population, causing some more social unrest within its own society... Get my drift? (And I haven't yet mentioned the price of oil that will have an impact - correction: already has - on the price of "locally" produced food.)

So leave the small hunters alone and protect the fishes now before there's no more...

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The Famous Druid

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quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
The recent jump in the price of rice is just a beginning. When remaining fishes will be so few that their prices will skyrocket too, local population will likely stop exporting their resources

Already happening.

There was an article in the press a few weeks ago, the government of Argentina stopped grain exports. There's a world-wide shortage, and they wanted to ensure they had enough food for their own people.

btw - I blame the biofuel craze for the jump in food prices. 240 kg of corn will feed a poor farmer for a year, or produce 100 litres of ethanol, enough to fill the tank of an SUV.

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quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
The recent jump in the price of rice is just a beginning. When remaining fishes will be so few that their prices will skyrocket too, local population will likely stop exporting their resources (if only because they will be seized by angry local population).

The fish population collapse is currently a problem, too. No-one is pointing to a definitive cause yet, but I'm betting we are at least a contributing factor.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted April 14, 2008 21:17      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:

btw - I blame the biofuel craze for the jump in food prices. 240 kg of corn will feed a poor farmer for a year, or produce 100 litres of ethanol, enough to fill the tank of an SUV.

That's a fair place to put the blame. Corn prices are through the roof. This is making Iowans like my grandfather happy and consumers like me less happy. I had to pull a buzz kill at Christmas. The family was jabbering away so happy about the price of corn and then I piped up with "Yeah, and you guys should see my grocery bill!" And then there was silence. It's only been getting worse since then too.

Thing is, corn isn't even the most efficient source of ethanol. The US is dumping money into it only because the farm lobby is so bloody powerful. I'm not sure what the rest of the world's excuse is.

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________________________ For some reason I have a problem seeing the difference between this thread and the one about, Libertarians, Cons. and protecting banks. Sales or any other means of making money.

Corn to Alcohol is stupid, Switch grass is a better way to make alcohol. Soy beans to bio-Diesel is also stupid as the Bio is only 5% of the mix. Rape can substitute for Diesel almost straight up, the Canadians got that one right.

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Icon 1 posted April 15, 2008 10:35      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Upon news of more food export reductions/bans, I took a few minutes, and came up with this summary:

Rice: India (banned for non-basmati), Egypt (banned), Vietnam (banned), Indonesia (reduced), Cambodia (banned)
Wheat: Kazakhstan (suspended), Russia (overtaxed), Ukraine (suspended), Argentina (suspended)
Barley: Russia (overtaxed), Ukraine (reduced)
Other exportations affected: Ukraine (Sunflower oil: reduced), India (peas, bean: banned)

Fishing moratorium: Canada (cod, enforced since 1992), Russia (sturgeon, proposed), China (all in South China Sea, seasonal), European Union (tuna, lobbied for)

Under talk reductions, taxes or bans: USA (wheat), Pakistan (rice)

Feel free to add any I would have missed.

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Icon 1 posted April 15, 2008 10:58      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TheMoMan wrote:
Corn to Alcohol is stupid, Switch grass is a better way to make alcohol. Soy beans to bio-Diesel is also stupid as the Bio is only 5% of the mix. Rape can substitute for Diesel almost straight up, the Canadians got that one right.

Don't forget algae. These folks are starting to impress me with what they're doing.

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