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Topic: Atheism endangers children!
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Ashitaka
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posted April 08, 2008 11:41
I think both sides believe this with equal strength.
There are athiests out there that freak out when students in elementary school have to say the pledge of alliagence (god a can't spell today), holding to the same logic that they don't want thier kids exposed to superstition.
I think all parents simply want thier kids to believe what they do. It is natural.
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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"
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GrumpySteen
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posted April 08, 2008 12:08
The opposition to the pledge of allegiance isn't about preventing exposure of a child to a religious concept. It's about the separation of state and church which, sadly, is a complete joke these days. As a bonus, the pledge of allegiance originally did not include the words "under God." That was added in 1954 and I'm sure our founding forefathers would have been appalled since they were the ones that demanded the separation of church and state in the first place.
Would you find it equally acceptable for Christians to be prevented from even saying they were Christians lest an atheist child be exposed to their beliefs and swayed to a belief system the child's parents do not agree with?
How about Muslims? Should we prevent them from saying or showing that they're Muslim? Make the Hijab illegal and force the women to abandon their beliefs to prevent Christian and atheist children from knowing that another belief system exists?
I think not.
Atheism gets shoved out of the way in the name of religion so often that most people don't even notice it happening. If you turn the situation around, however, it becomes painfully obvious that the behavior is unacceptable.
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The Famous Druid
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posted April 08, 2008 14:28
My favourite bit of anti-atheist bigotry is from this article
quote:
From TFA:
researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, homosexuals and other groups as "sharing their vision of American society." Americans are also least willing to let their children marry atheists.
To paraphrase the result, "I'd rather my daughter married another woman than marry an atheist"
And on the subject of marriage...
The next time a Xtian gives me that "Family Values" spiel, I'll point out that Christians have a higher divorce rate than atheists.
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Infinitesimal
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posted April 08, 2008 18:10
That a bit of a shame really, at least here most of the christians I have met will respect the choice of Atheism if you respect their choice of religion. And I would even count some of them as friends ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
That said there are still the crazy sorts that insist their particular version of christian is the only way and everyone else is going to hell, but then again they tend not to abide by some of the core tenets of the faith anyway!
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That which doesn't kill you can only make you stronger. Therefore I am damn near indestructable.
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tweety
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posted April 09, 2008 08:37
Being from Il I'm quite ashamed by the actions, thoughts, beliefs and words of Rep. Davis. Not surprised, though. Frankly, the people of this State irritate me to no end. I'm looking forward to getting out of here; plan is to do so in about 3 or 4 months. The biggest problem with IL is it's plain vanilla flavor. It's so middle of the road, so unwilling to take a chance on new, on change, on different, it's depressing.
Rant on that subject done. On to next topic ...
The issue we have in this country regarding religion is the same issue that exists wherever humans live. That is, any belief system that jeopardizes my happy, comfy, familiar viewpoint is dangerous. Some people are smart enough, and open enough, to say "To heck with it. I believe this, they believe something else, who cares. In the end we all die and know the reality." That seems to be a fairly small minority of people, regardless of faith.
It's the way humans are built. We build up viewpoints that seem to keep us safe from all the bad things out there, merely so we can live another day to hopefully procreate to keep the species going. All living things are built on this fundamental foundation. As animals that have a highly developed sense of self, past, present, future and the great beyond (in any way that it exists) we take this fundamental organic element to extremes. Hence, the Crusades, throwing Christians to the Lions, the Holocaust, flying airplanes into skyscrapers, killing Olympic athletes because they are Jewish or because their government has done wrong to your people. The list, quite unfortunately, goes on and on.
So, in the end, the State Rep's comments should not be surprising in light of human nature, and especially in light of the religious fundamentalism (Puritanism) that was the bedrock of the society created by some of the first inhabitants of this continent. We haven't shaken it, and we may never shake it. It's in the American DNA, for better or worse.
I'm not excusing the Rep's comments, or viewpoints, merely pointing out that they shouldn't be surprising in any way. Religious tolerance came about in this country through necessity, not through good will. Personally, I think the road to even greater religious tolerance will be through mini social revolts, political revolts, time and necessity. This is, after all, the US where no social change has ever occurred without major upheaval and the occasional military action.
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Posts: 454 | From: IL | Registered: May 2005
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GrumpySteen
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posted April 09, 2008 14:08
tweety:
So, in the end, the State Rep's comments should not be surprising in light of human nature, and especially in light of the religious fundamentalism (Puritanism) that was the bedrock of the society created by some of the first inhabitants of this continent. We haven't shaken it, and we may never shake it. It's in the American DNA, for better or worse.
What's surprising is not that someone holds extremist opinions. What's surprising is that someone who believes that those with opinions contrary to her own should not be allowed their constitutional right to present their opinion in a public forum has managed to attain such a position of power within our government.
My purpose in posting this is primarily to do what I could to ensure that her behavior is well known, not to shame Christians or Illinois residents. Davis does not truly represent either and I honestly believe the only way she obtained the office she has was by misrepresenting herself. When election time comes around, I have little doubt that she will misrepresent herself again and voters need to know that she is not the person she will be claiming she is.
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tweety
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posted April 09, 2008 15:24
Steen - I didn't intend to shame Illinois residents. What you posted just got my blood hot about an issue I've been trying to resolve for some years now. Illinois residents, when it comes to politics, are no better and no worse than anyone else.
As for being shocked that someone like Davis, or rather, that Davis herself has attained a position of power, well, all I can say to that is, have you seen our current President lately?
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If I were a good man I'd talk to you more often than I do.
American Fairy Tales
IT, A Philosophy
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fs
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posted April 12, 2008 11:35
quote:
Originally posted by Infinitesimal:
That said there are still the crazy sorts that insist their particular version of christian is the only way and everyone else is going to hell, but then again they tend not to abide by some of the core tenets of the faith anyway!
Like the Finnish cargo cult we saw in the Helsinki airport, bowing and chanting at the planes. They kept crossing themselves, is how I know they were some denomination of Christian. Maswan insists they were praying to the sunrise, but that seems pretty pagan and idolotrous to me. Since when do Christians pray to a sun god? Of course, he's an Atheist, so he would think that.
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Posts: 1973 | From: The Cat Ship | Registered: Mar 2002
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Infinitesimal
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posted April 12, 2008 20:31
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
quote:
Originally posted by Infinitesimal:
That said there are still the crazy sorts that insist their particular version of christian is the only way and everyone else is going to hell, but then again they tend not to abide by some of the core tenets of the faith anyway!
Like the Finnish cargo cult we saw in the Helsinki airport, bowing and chanting at the planes. They kept crossing themselves, is how I know they were some denomination of Christian. Maswan insists they were praying to the sunrise, but that seems pretty pagan and idolotrous to me. Since when do Christians pray to a sun god? Of course, he's an Atheist, so he would think that.
No idea, maybe they think the planes are loading with unclean heathen sorts and are making warding signs or sommat ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
And besides just being an Atheist doesn't mean complete ignorance of faith. Some of us so at least try to understand in the interests of just getting along
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That which doesn't kill you can only make you stronger. Therefore I am damn near indestructable.
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fs
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posted April 13, 2008 02:31
quote:
Originally posted by Infinitesimal:
No idea, maybe they think the planes are loading with unclean heathen sorts and are making warding signs or sommat
It was really bizarre. I couldn't help but think, watching them, that if they were doing that in an American airport, they'd get themselves detained. I don't imagine wearing headscarves and chanting at airplanes goes down so hot with the TSA.
quote:
Originally posted by Infinitesimal:
And besides just being an Atheist doesn't mean complete ignorance of faith. Some of us so at least try to understand in the interests of just getting along
I was being facetious. (Being an atheist myself and all. )
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Grummash
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posted April 13, 2008 09:43
As a pagan, I don't have any trouble with atheism or religion, per se, (although I feel more comfortable with the poly- rather than the monotheistic religions).
But when I first read the title for this thread, I thought it said:
"Atheism engenders children"... which would be a bloody good reason to ban it! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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maswan
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posted April 13, 2008 12:09
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
quote:
Originally posted by Infinitesimal:
That said there are still the crazy sorts that insist their particular version of christian is the only way and everyone else is going to hell, but then again they tend not to abide by some of the core tenets of the faith anyway!
Like the Finnish cargo cult we saw in the Helsinki airport, bowing and chanting at the planes. They kept crossing themselves, is how I know they were some denomination of Christian. Maswan insists they were praying to the sunrise, but that seems pretty pagan and idolotrous to me. Since when do Christians pray to a sun god? Of course, he's an Atheist, so he would think that.
From the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America webpage on Orthodox worship:
quote:
Of all natural phenomena, none is more conspicuous and central to human life than the setting and the rising of the sun. For the Christian the appearance and the disappearance of light are more than merely natural occurrences. Since God and His saving power is always experienced as light - "the people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, and for those who sat in the region and shadow of death light has dawned" (Matt 4: 16) - sunset and sunrise are the most propitious times for prayer; for the remembrance of Jesus Christ, the light of the world, who dispels the darkness of sin, corruption and death. Each evening and morning-whether in the setting of communal worship or private devotions-the faithful prayerfully light the vigil lamps, the symbol of Christ as light, and praise with gladness and thanksgiving the manifestation of God in Jesus Christ, who is the phos ilaron, the gladsome and radiant light.
See?
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Infinitesimal
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posted April 14, 2008 21:39
quote:
Originally posted by maswan:
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
quote:
Originally posted by Infinitesimal:
That said there are still the crazy sorts that insist their particular version of christian is the only way and everyone else is going to hell, but then again they tend not to abide by some of the core tenets of the faith anyway!
Like the Finnish cargo cult we saw in the Helsinki airport, bowing and chanting at the planes. They kept crossing themselves, is how I know they were some denomination of Christian. Maswan insists they were praying to the sunrise, but that seems pretty pagan and idolotrous to me. Since when do Christians pray to a sun god? Of course, he's an Atheist, so he would think that.
From the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America webpage on Orthodox worship:
quote:
Of all natural phenomena, none is more conspicuous and central to human life than the setting and the rising of the sun. For the Christian the appearance and the disappearance of light are more than merely natural occurrences. Since God and His saving power is always experienced as light - "the people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, and for those who sat in the region and shadow of death light has dawned" (Matt 4: 16) - sunset and sunrise are the most propitious times for prayer; for the remembrance of Jesus Christ, the light of the world, who dispels the darkness of sin, corruption and death. Each evening and morning-whether in the setting of communal worship or private devotions-the faithful prayerfully light the vigil lamps, the symbol of Christ as light, and praise with gladness and thanksgiving the manifestation of God in Jesus Christ, who is the phos ilaron, the gladsome and radiant light.
See?
well how about that.
But I think I will stick with being a Heretical heathen athiest, less rules
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That which doesn't kill you can only make you stronger. Therefore I am damn near indestructable.
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fs
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posted April 15, 2008 00:09
So what we've learned is it's okay to worship whatever natural phenomena you want, and it's not pagan, as long as you claim it represents Jesus. Of course, maybe airplanes represent Jesus too, because they fly and he ascended to heaven. Also, they are kind of cross shaped.
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Sxeptomaniac
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posted April 15, 2008 01:34
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
So what we've learned is it's okay to worship whatever natural phenomena you want, and it's not pagan, as long as you claim it represents Jesus. Of course, maybe airplanes represent Jesus too, because they fly and he ascended to heaven. Also, they are kind of cross shaped.
Keep in mind that Orthodox Christianity is a different theological tradition from what most from Roman Catholic (and, as a result, Protestant) backgrounds are used to. Iconography and symbolism in general are a much larger part of their worship practices. While there are things that I disagree with about that approach, there are advantages as well.
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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis
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