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Author Topic: Barak Obama
Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted January 03, 2008 18:30      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
A black man wins in a very white state in the USA.

CP

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Snaggy

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Icon 14 posted January 03, 2008 18:41      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I hope so, (I'm still looking for confirmation.)

To us here in the rest of the world, (and I speak for all of us, ;p ) Obama represents the best hope that the USA is serious about change.

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted January 03, 2008 18:52      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Here's the link.

http://www.cnn.com/?refresh=1

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted January 03, 2008 23:11      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Another article here. It looks like Obama is getting 16 delegates from the Iowa Caucuses, Clinton is getting 15, and Edwards is getting 14, according to a couple of articles I've read.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted January 04, 2008 03:20      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Snaggy:
I hope so, (I'm still looking for confirmation.)

To us here in the rest of the world, (and I speak for all of us, ;p ) Obama represents the best hope that the USA is serious about change.

The reservations that many have about Obama are that while he gives a good speech, his misguided efforts to construct a bridge between the two parties, while being a noble aim, ignores the fact that you can't do compromise politics with radical revolutionaries, because they aren't interested. And there is no bridge between reality and lala land either. I hope that the Dems will finally choose a candidate that will take the fight to the Republicans rather than reach out to them. Demagoguery has to be defeated, not negotiated with. That the current Republican front runner is another Christian fundamentalist anti Darwinian with a dubious political past should tell you something. In this situation you are either on the side of reason, facts, and light, or superstition, fear, and dark. There is sadly no in between.

My hope is that his current stance is just an electioneering ploy, like GWB's "compassionate" conservatism, and that if selected and then elected he will grow in office, but I would be more reassured if he showed a little more backbone now.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted January 04, 2008 04:47      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm still really undecided (even on which party I want to win). I know everyones platform but think most of them are running on their platform just to win, not because they are going to change anything. (ie. I think everyone (but Paul) is BSing to some degree.


I like Paul, Barrack, Clinton, and McCain.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted January 04, 2008 05:09      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
______________________ I expect the Karl Rove type dirty tricks to start, to derail the front runners. Too bad that is the practice of American politics, Read some of Mark twains comments on politics.

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bassgoonist
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Icon 1 posted January 04, 2008 06:33      Profile for bassgoonist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic:
A black man wins in a very white state in the USA.

CP

91% is very white? Oh...I guess it is...
*Iowa born*

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stevenback7
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Icon 1 posted January 04, 2008 08:35      Profile for stevenback7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
YAY

I'm definetly supporting Obama with Clinton second.

He has a good vision and is a strong leader which is shown by the speech he gave last night which was definetly better then any of the other canidates. This is not the time for the states to fall back on a safety canidate. The states needs change and a leader like Obama is the canidate who is right now most likely to bring this change.

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MacManKrisK

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Icon 1 posted January 04, 2008 09:34      Profile for MacManKrisK     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think it's time for a real change, some real fresh blood, and I think Obama is our only chance at that. All the rest of the candidates are too entrenched in politicin' and greasin' palms for them to actually /change/ anything. I think... I hope.. Obama is different.

One other news article of note: From MTV News.

Now I'm not exactly purporting MTV News as the nation's most reputable news source, but in this election, if they play their cards right, they may wind up as the most powerful one. MTV's "Rock The Vote" has driven a lot of otherwise apathetic 20-somethings out to the polls in past elections. Any statistician will tell you that the percentage of young voters in /this/ election will be directly proportional to the percentage of Obama supporters (generally by a correlation of .8 or better).

If they haven't started already, I give it two weeks max and Fox news will start attacking MTV as "biased and unethical."

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted January 04, 2008 15:00      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Good to see Obama pull off a comfortable win, I suspect Billary is sharpening the knives as we speak though, watch out for the swift boats Barack.

I'm very happy to see Rudy '9-11' Giuliani get kicked in the jewels.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted January 04, 2008 15:13      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There have been attempts to swift-boat Obama. So far, they have failed. I'm not sure why. The man has some kind of charisma.

I'd much rather see him take the nomination than Clinton, though neither is my favorite. My favorite has no hope at all. :/

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted January 04, 2008 15:37      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
There have been attempts to swift-boat Obama. So far, they have failed. I'm not sure why.

Because deep down, most people can spot a pack of lies a mile off, but they're willing to 'believe' anything that leads them in the direction they already want to go.

The "I want to believe" factor isn't working this time, because most people have decided it's time for a change of course.

We saw the same thing in the recent election here in oz. The tories dragged out all the lies and dirty tricks that had served them so well in previous elections, to no effect. Manufactured scaremongering incidents and trumped-up swiftboating stories that would have won them elections in the past just sank without trace. The people had seen it all before, and weren't in the mood to save Tinkerbell this time.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted January 04, 2008 15:56      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
There have been attempts to swift-boat Obama. So far, they have failed. I'm not sure why.

Because deep down, most people can spot a pack of lies a mile off, but they're willing to 'believe' anything that leads them in the direction they already want to go.

The "I want to believe" factor isn't working this time, because most people have decided it's time for a change of course.

I take a more cynical view.

I think that the attack dogs will be held on a leash until the Democrats choose their candidate. Those early unnecessary attacks on Obama made the attackers look bad, not him. They will get away with more vicious tactics later on under the guise of examining whether he is a fit character to hold the office of President. In addition if say they attacked and knocked out too many of the democrat front runners, then Al Gore might be persuaded to stand, which they would not want.

All in all they are better off keeping their powder dry, and just sharpening those knives right now.

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted January 04, 2008 16:25      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Swiftboats are but one weapon in their arsenal. Failing all, the Republicans will simply steal another election.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted January 04, 2008 16:26      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
quote:
Originally posted by Snaggy:
I hope so, (I'm still looking for confirmation.)

To us here in the rest of the world, (and I speak for all of us, ;p ) Obama represents the best hope that the USA is serious about change.

The reservations that many have about Obama are that while he gives a good speech, his misguided efforts to construct a bridge between the two parties, while being a noble aim, ignores the fact that you can't do compromise politics with radical revolutionaries, because they aren't interested. And there is no bridge between reality and lala land either. I hope that the Dems will finally choose a candidate that will take the fight to the Republicans rather than reach out to them. Demagoguery has to be defeated, not negotiated with. That the current Republican front runner is another Christian fundamentalist anti Darwinian with a dubious political past should tell you something. In this situation you are either on the side of reason, facts, and light, or superstition, fear, and dark. There is sadly no in between.

My hope is that his current stance is just an electioneering ploy, like GWB's "compassionate" conservatism, and that if selected and then elected he will grow in office, but I would be more reassured if he showed a little more backbone now.

Of course there's an in-between: we're generally referred to as "moderates."

Huckabee may be able to win among the die-hard Republicans in the primaries, but, at this rate, he'll crash and burn in a national campaign against someone as popular with moderates as Obama is. The major part of Obama's appeal among moderates is his conciliatory approach. I liked this argument for why it's the right thing for him to do.

I also think Obama has more backbone than most politicians, but he chooses to be less petulant. It's easy to play into the usual adversarial politics, that's why so many politicians do it. I think he's a good choice because he's smarter and better than that.

quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
There have been attempts to swift-boat Obama. So far, they have failed. I'm not sure why.

Because deep down, most people can spot a pack of lies a mile off, but they're willing to 'believe' anything that leads them in the direction they already want to go.
Exactly. I never have put much stock in the ability of swiftboating to make significant changes in opinion. Even for those who do believe it works, people are far more prepared for such tactics this time around.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted January 04, 2008 17:04      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
Swiftboats are but one weapon in their arsenal. Failing all, the Republicans will simply steal another election.

Please keep the '06 elections in mind when you say that. The American people are really quite pissed off right now, and the Dems really stand a chance.

Personally, I'm more of a Clinton fan, even if I still think she's a carpetbagger as senator of my state. I've actually heard her speak in person, and think she's got a surprising amount of character and willpower, even if I'm not a huge fan of her (though I def. voted for her in '06). I guess it's really a matter of 'hold your nose and vote.' :/

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted January 04, 2008 17:50      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
Exactly. I never have put much stock in the ability of swiftboating to make significant changes in opinion.

I hate to disagree with people who're agreeing with me, but...

I think swiftboating can make a significant difference in the vote, in situations where peoples logic is leading them one way, and their emotions the other. It gives people an excuse to follow their emotions and vote against their better judgement, for example...

Registered Republican: The Republicans have fscked-up big time, they've got us into a war we can't win, torn up the constitution, tortured prisoners, and done great damage to our reputation internationally. I must reluctantly conclude that it's time to vote them out.

Swiftboater: Ah, but this guy whose service record shows him being nowhere near the alleged incident at the time claims he saw the Democrat candidate drinking the blood of babies and dedicating their souls to the Great God Cthulhu.

Registered Republican: (closes eyes, crosses fingers, says "I want to believe") Oh, well, I couldn't vote for a Cthulhu worshipper, better vote Republican then.

If, however, the voter was thinking "I'm really angry at the Republicans because of X, I wanna kick their asses" then the swiftboaters obvious lies would be rejected out of hand.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted January 04, 2008 19:02      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
Of course there's an in-between: we're generally referred to as "moderates."

Well, from the perspective of the rest of the world the two main US parties are both right wing parties so you don't get much choice anyway, but the Republicans are now controlled by dogmatic ideologues with a fundamentally antidemocratic and socially divisive agenda. As one of them said recently "bipartisanship is date rape", and "the Democrats will never be happy until they accept their permanent minority status".

There is no middle ground with such utterly ruthless political operators, and Obama pandering to their prejudices won't cut no ice. They must be fought and roundly defeated.

Krugman says it all rather better than me. On Being Partisan

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ASM65816
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Icon 2 posted January 05, 2008 00:54      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
January 04, 2008 15:13
There have been attempts to swift-boat Obama. So far, they have failed. I'm not sure why. The man has some kind of charisma.

Well, let's compare Obama to John Kerry.

quote:
Barack Obama: Obama's parents separated when he was two years old and later divorced ... grew up in his mother's American middle class family ... after high school, Obama moved to Los Angeles. (blah blah blah blah) Obama was elected to the Illinois State Senate in 1996 .... As a state legislator, Obama worked with both Democrats and Republicans in drafting successful legislation.......

John Kerry: Kerry is the second child of Richard John Kerry, a Foreign Service agent and attorney for the Bureau of United Nations Affairs, and Rosemary Forbes Kerry, a member of the wealthy Forbes family ... a wealthy great aunt paid for Kerry to attend elite schools in Europe and New England ... spent his summers at the Forbes family estate in France.

In the case of John Kerry's Purple Heart medals (which he refused to provide medical records documenting wounds received)
  • Is it possible that his (super-Freakin'-rich) family's political connections and wealth influenced these awards, getting him out of Vietnam in 80 days -- unlike the soldiers serving 12 month tours?

Why not discuss the following question? (myself, I don't feel like commenting on it)
  • Are Obama's reputation and the achievements attributed to him the result of his own talent and drive to succeed -- or were they bought with his super-Freakin'-rich family and their political connections?
 
....... now on to "Part II" -- US Extremism vs Moderates
quote:
January 04, 2008 19:02
Well, from the perspective of the rest of the world the two main US parties are both right wing parties ... There is no middle ground with such utterly ruthless political operators....

Are you getting news about the US from people that believe in vast conspiracies and secret societies?
quote:
Leftist Lunatic: The US is run by extremist conspiracies!!!

Observer: Everybody can't be part of a conspiracy. Some people have work and lives. Many of them can be called "moderates."

Leftist Lunatic: "Moderates" are a LIE!!!! Spread by the CIA to keep the world blind to American Evil! You'd like me to believe Waitresses wait tables, and Truck Drivers drive trucks, wouldn't you?

Observer: But waitresses do wait tables, and truck drivers do drive trucks.

Leftist Lunatic: THAT'S A LIE! They're all spies and assassins! And so are the Plumbers, and the Welders, and the Real Estate Agents, and the Car Salesmen, and the Cable Installers, and Physical Therapists, AND EVERYONE ELSE!!!!

Doesn't it seem absurd to have no "moderates"?

If that doesn't seem absurd,
quote:
<begin dream sequence -- wavy lines>

ASM: Fine, I'll tell you the truth. Barack Obama is a white man. The CIA and NSA recruited him, carefully crafted a fictitious life and used cosmetic surgery, propaganda and rigged elections to put another of their minions (Obama) in Congress. A vast array of super-computers .....

<ring> <ring> ..... <ring> <ring> ..... <ring> <ring>

ASM: The White House? ... Geez.

Merry Christmas......   [Roll Eyes]

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted January 05, 2008 02:28      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ASM characterises my arguments as coming from a leftist lunatic.

Point proven.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted January 05, 2008 04:35      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ASM honey, I apologize.
Can we kiss and make up now? [hearts]

(I'll do that thing you really like)

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted January 05, 2008 10:50      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
ASM characterises my arguments as coming from a leftist lunatic.
Your "Information Sources" are WRONG.
 
quote:
Well, from the perspective of the rest of the world ......
YOU ... are NOT the "rest of the world."

Your are repeating other people that are WRONG.

The typical people in the American public will talk about who is sleeping with whom, whose sports team sucks, and so on.

The small number of people that only talk (or rant) about Politics in public are generally called "Assholes" (although there are many kinds of assholes).

If the US really had as many Political Extremists as "the rest of the world" believes -- the US would be as bloody as Rwanda or Sudan (because "we all have lots of guns").
[shake head]

EDIT: Ok ... the viewpoint is understandable. Moderates don't have tons of blogs. Moderates don't get tons of news coverage (because it's boring news). Moderates don't get attention from screaming in public (because they wouldn't be "moderates" at that point).

As an analogy -- the "average person" does not stand-out in a crowd. There are vast numbers of "average people" that no one notices, and the reason is because they are not at the extremes.

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Mr Agreeable
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Icon 1 posted January 05, 2008 11:58      Profile for Mr Agreeable     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
The small number of people that only talk (or rant) about Politics in public are generally called "Assholes"

I agree.
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Cap'n Vic

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quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
Swiftboats are but one weapon in their arsenal. Failing all, the Republicans will simply steal another election.

Please keep the '06 elections in mind when you say that. The American people are really quite pissed off right now, and the Dems really stand a chance.
Pissed of, maye but what are their choices?

I really do feel sorry for y'all down there because all your politicians seem to be cut from the same cloth. Your lefties are right of our righties.

Remember all the promises by the Dems in 06 and how they all faded into the background so quickly?

I'd like to see Obama in simple because he hasn't been around as long as the rest of the crew (on either side) and presummable won't be corrupt as the rest of 'em. A young, sharp mind may do your country, and the world well. I have this sick feeling in the pit of my stomach though that if Obama continues to make advances some redneck is gonna put a bullet in him just for being black. Sadly no one has tried with Shrub who is a legitimate criminal.

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