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Author Topic: Words fail me
Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted December 06, 2007 03:27      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I know that some of you thought that I am overstated matters when I described the neoconservative/religious right as following an ideology that was evil, but this story just took my breath away. That this man, nominally a Baptist minister, could knowingly release a dangerous and quite possibly lethal rapist with the sole aim of inflicting political damage to Clinton and the Democrats is almost beyond my most cynical imaginings.

I don't know which the religious right harm most, politics or religion itself; but evil, in retrospect, seems quite a moderate description .

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted December 06, 2007 04:08      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Callipygous ____________________________ Some times in American Politics one needs a Teflon Raincoat.

Some polititions know where to get one some don't, it seems Mike Huckabee doesn't.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted December 06, 2007 10:09      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
That this man, nominally a Baptist minister, could knowingly release a dangerous and quite possibly lethal rapist with the sole aim of inflicting political damage to Clinton and the Democrats is almost beyond my most cynical imaginings.

Where did you get that from? Nowhere in the article does it say that the pressure to release Dumond was part of an attempt to hurt the Clintons, nor do I see how the release could possibly have accomplished much if that were the goal.

Instead, the release seems to have partially stemmed from the general distrust and sometimes outright hatred of Bill Clinton that had developed among many on the right.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted December 06, 2007 14:41      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
That this man, nominally a Baptist minister, could knowingly release a dangerous and quite possibly lethal rapist with the sole aim of inflicting political damage to Clinton and the Democrats is almost beyond my most cynical imaginings.

Where did you get that from? Nowhere in the article does it say that the pressure to release Dumond was part of an attempt to hurt the Clintons, nor do I see how the release could possibly have accomplished much if that were the goal.

Instead, the release seems to have partially stemmed from the general distrust and sometimes outright hatred of Bill Clinton that had developed among many on the right.

Well I guess the relevant portion of the report is this:-
quote:
The activists claimed that Dumond's initial imprisonment and various other travails were due to the fact that Ashley Stevens, the high school cheerleader he had raped, was a distant cousin of Bill Clinton, and the daughter of a major Clinton campaign contributor.

The case for Dumond's innocence was championed in Arkansas by Jay Cole, a Baptist minister and radio host who was a close friend of the Huckabee family. It also became a cause for New York Post columnist Steve Dunleavy, who repeatedly argued for Dumond's release, calling his conviction "a travesty of justice." On Sept. 21, 1999, Dunleavy wrote a column headlined "Clinton's Biggest Crime - Left Innocent Man In Jail For 14 Years":

"Dumond, now 52, was given conditional parole yesterday in Arkansas after having being sentenced to 50 years in jail for the rape of Clinton's cousin," Dunleavy wrote. "That rape never happened."

A subsequent Dunleavy column quoted Huckabee saying: "There is grave doubt to the circumstances of this reported crime."

You are I suppose arguing that the pathological hatred that these people had of Clinton could have lead them to a genuine belief that he was incapable of any honest act or decision, and that Dumond must therefore be innocent. Given the testimony Huckabee had from Dumond's victims, (which is the main thrust of this article), that's a hell of a stretch, even for someone who bases his politics on faith rather than dreary facts. However even if your interpretation of his actions is true, I regard this as no better than running a smear campaign knowing it to be untrue. You might even argue that such a characterisation of his motives makes the word evil even more appropriate. A genuine belief in the world wide Zionist conspiracy is no excuse for anti-Semitism, and likewise even a genuine and sincere a belief that Bill Clinton is the spawn of Beelzebub is no excuse for Huckabee's actions.

That this man with the blood of an innocent women on his hands should then go on to make pious statements about the Right to Life, and the "holocaust" caused by the legalisation of abortion is beyond irony.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted December 06, 2007 16:44      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Callipygous ______________________ The best part was that soon after this came to light, His campain MGR related that the then govenor did not have much say in the parole boards decision, doesn't he appoint them?

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted December 06, 2007 17:16      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What Huckabee did was a slap in the face to all women who have been raped. He ignored their pleas and let a rapist go. In a just society he would be charged with aiding and abetting as far as I am concerned. As you said Calli, the blood is on his hands.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted December 06, 2007 18:39      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well,

As long as the fellow is not named "Willie Horton" then I don't see any harm in letting the fellow out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC9j6Wfdq3o

Colonel Panic

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Free! Free at last!

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted December 07, 2007 12:46      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
You are I suppose arguing that the pathological hatred that these people had of Clinton could have lead them to a genuine belief that he was incapable of any honest act or decision, and that Dumond must therefore be innocent. Given the testimony Huckabee had from Dumond's victims, (which is the main thrust of this article), that's a hell of a stretch, even for someone who bases his politics on faith rather than dreary facts. However even if your interpretation of his actions is true, I regard this as no better than running a smear campaign knowing it to be untrue. You might even argue that such a characterisation of his motives makes the word evil even more appropriate. A genuine belief in the world wide Zionist conspiracy is no excuse for anti-Semitism, and likewise even a genuine and sincere a belief that Bill Clinton is the spawn of Beelzebub is no excuse for Huckabee's actions.

It's not an excuse, but I find the conclusion quite doubtful. There are several times in the article where evidence is clearly given that Huckabee seemed to think Dumond was innocent. Even without that, releasing Dumond wouldn't do much as an attack, though it could have helped him gain the support of the Clinton-hating crowd. Who knows how he managed to ignore/discount the evidence to the contrary, but I've found that the capacity for self-delusion in many people is quite significant.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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ASM65816
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Icon 3 posted December 09, 2007 10:21      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
December 06, 2007, 03:27
... knowingly release a dangerous and quite possibly lethal ...

There is such an easy solution to this:

    If an individual on parole is convicted of a crime, all members of his parole board are immediately guilty as accomplices to the crime because:
  1. The crime could not have occurred without the parole board releasing the individual.
  2. Everyone on the parole board knew the individual was capable of, and willing to commit, criminal acts.
 
It might take a while, but crime from people on parole would disappear because:
  • The parole officers would be in jail and couldn't let anyone out. (Some would resign their jobs to avoid jail.)
  • The parole officers would never give anyone parole, due to the risk of their own imprisonment.


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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted December 09, 2007 10:25      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That is the most f*cked-up thing I think I've ever heard. Well done!

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted December 10, 2007 02:24      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
It's not an excuse, but I find the conclusion quite doubtful. There are several times in the article where evidence is clearly given that Huckabee seemed to think Dumond was innocent.

Really? Where? Or are you referring to the absence of any public statement along these lines "He's guilty and dangerous, but what the hell, we'll release him anyway. The Lord will provide." Come on Sxepto!

quote:
Even without that, releasing Dumond wouldn't do much as an attack, though it could have helped him gain the support of the Clinton-hating crowd.
So it would be no slur on Clinton to say that while governor he connived in keeping an innocent man in gaol, to please his relatives and supporters? Are we reading the same article?

quote:
Who knows how he managed to ignore/discount the evidence to the contrary, but I've found that the capacity for self-delusion in many people is quite significant.
Ahem, I think your post makes this self evident. [Wink]

quote:
Originally posted by Spungo:
That is the most f*cked-up thing I think I've ever heard. Well done!

Absolutely ASM! What a great post! Most of the criminal justice system is a clear example of empire building by a bureaucracy. Encourage enterprise by replacing all those expensive prisons with privately run profitable public lynchings! The US needs to get back to a simple effective system of frontier justice.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted December 10, 2007 08:41      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
It's not an excuse, but I find the conclusion quite doubtful. There are several times in the article where evidence is clearly given that Huckabee seemed to think Dumond was innocent.

Really? Where? Or are you referring to the absence of any public statement along these lines "He's guilty and dangerous, but what the hell, we'll release him anyway. The Lord will provide." Come on Sxepto!
Right here, it shows up three times in this section alone:
quote:
Although Huckabee has yet to give a detailed account as to why he pushed to free Dumond, he provided his fullest explanation to date in his published campaign manifesto "From Hope to Higher Ground." In the book, he wrote that he was moved to act on Dumond's behalf because he believed Dumond might have been wrongly convicted. Ashley Stevens and Fletcher Long confirmed in interviews for this story that when they met with then-Gov. Huckabee, he insisted to them that Dumond might be innocent.

Huckabee also wrote in "From Hope to Higher Ground" that he moved to act on Dumond's behalf out of compassion. He said on numerous other occasions that he felt sympathy for Dumond because Dumond was allegedly castrated while awaiting trial for raping Ashley Stevens.

quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
quote:
Even without that, releasing Dumond wouldn't do much as an attack, though it could have helped him gain the support of the Clinton-hating crowd.
So it would be no slur on Clinton to say that while governor he connived in keeping an innocent man in gaol, to please his relatives and supporters? Are we reading the same article?
So, he's somehow clever enough to think up that political maneuvering, but still stupid enough to not think through the political consequences if Dumond were to rape again? That seems like some pretty tortured logic. What's more logical, that Huckabee convinced himself Dumond was innocent, or that he released a serial rapist he knew was guilty in order to hurt the Clintons, yet somehow believed that the man would help him out in the scheme by not raping again (or at least not getting caught)?

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted December 10, 2007 09:40      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You guys are talking across each other. Seriously. Neither of you is apologizing for or excusing Huckabee's decision. The only difference is Sxepto thinks he's an idiot while Calli thinks he's a conniving jackass. This is splitting hairs.

Just out of curiousity, why did Huckabee think a serial rapist was wrongfully convicted and that he wouldn't rape again?

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted December 10, 2007 12:32      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
The only difference is Sxepto thinks he's an idiot while Calli thinks he's a conniving jackass.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted December 10, 2007 13:07      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
You guys are talking across each other. Seriously. Neither of you is apologizing for or excusing Huckabee's decision. The only difference is Sxepto thinks he's an idiot while Calli thinks he's a conniving jackass. This is splitting hairs.

I know. I just sometimes like splitting hairs. [Geek]

quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Just out of curiousity, why did Huckabee think a serial rapist was wrongfully convicted and that he wouldn't rape again?

That is certainly the question. My guess is that he simply chose to listen to the groups that supported Dumond, and ignored all contrary evidence (who knows if he even read the letters from the women). From the article: "Huckabee was under intense pressure from conservative activists to pardon Dumond or commute his sentence." Not to mention one of the leaders of Dumond's supporters was apparently a friend of the Huckabee family, again according to the article.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted December 10, 2007 14:35      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
This is splitting hairs.

.....and this is their album.
 -

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(!) (T) = 8-D

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted December 10, 2007 15:06      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
This is splitting hairs.

.....and this is their album.
 -

And this is one of them on drugs:

 -

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted December 10, 2007 18:02      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
WTF?????

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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ASM65816
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Icon 4 posted December 10, 2007 20:06      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
December 06, 2007, 16:44
the then governor did not have much say in the parole boards decision, doesn't he appoint them?

All of the members of the parole board were either appointed by Bill Clinton or Jim Tucker.
 
quote:
December 07, 2007, 12:46
There are several times in the article where evidence is clearly given that Huckabee seemed to think Dumond was innocent.
...
Who knows how he managed to ignore/discount the evidence to the contrary.......

I'd say he "ignored evidence to the contrary" because of:
quote:
In 1990, the Parole Board recommended Dumond be freed based on DNA evidence that showed it unlikely he had committed the rape.... Genetic markers from two separate donors were found in the jeans Ashley Stevens claimed she wore that day.

Translation: Someone else committed the rape (in _this_ case), maybe two people.

In 1992, Governor Jim Guy Tucker gave executive clemency to Wayne DuMond, and commuted his sentence to 39.5 years. This action made Wayne DuMond immediately eligible for parole.

 
WAIT!!!   Don't Go Away ... you'll love what's next:
(actually, it's what happened before.)
quote:
During time of awaiting trial, Wayne Dumond was hog-tied and castrated; his testicles were later placed in a jar on the desk of a sheriff. Sheriff Conlee proudly showed the jar of DuMond's balls to several people. Eventually, he flushed them down a toilet.
...
It was estimated by one witness that Dumond lost nearly half his blood from the castration assault. He was found by his sons when they came home from school.
...
The judge excluded the photographs of all the blood on the floor in Dumond's house as being more prejudicial than relevant under Fed. Rule of Evidence 403. Then, after Sheriff Conlee said that Dumond castrated himself, the judge reversed himself and the photos came in.
...
In 1986, Sheriff Conlee lost a bid for reelection. A couple of years later, he was put on trial for racketeering and other felonies. Several pals turned against him, including deputy Sambo Hughes, who tearfully testified about the routine extortion of black-owned nightclubs. Conlee was convicted and died in prison.
...
Jim Tucker, resigned as Governor in 1996 after a felony conviction associated with the investigation into Arkansas real estate dealings. Three counts of fraud for Jim Tucker, and 14 other persons were convicted of more than 40 related crimes.

 
quote:
December 09, 2007, 10:25
That is the most f*cked-up thing I think I've ever heard. Well done!

Admit it, the "truth" in Arkansas is more f*cked-up than fiction.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted December 10, 2007 20:33      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
WTF?????

So. Xanth.

How's about a post card when you get to Paris?

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted December 10, 2007 20:47      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wrong acronym. [Wink]

Though I'd love to go to Paris properly some day. I went there once a couple years ago for a day to get my passport replaced 'cuz I dropped my old one down a crevasse (the clerk at the consulate's office said she'd never heard a story like that before...when I decide to screw up, I try to be whole-hearted and original [Razz] ). It is quite the city.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted December 10, 2007 21:03      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
/me seconds Xanthine's TLA.

gg: Are you sure your account hasn't been hacked by Steen? [Wink]

Maybe the password was too long or something. [Big Grin]

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted December 10, 2007 21:16      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
/me seconds Xanthine's TLA.

gg: Are you sure your account hasn't been hacked by Steen? [Wink]

Maybe the password was too long or something. [Big Grin]

No, no. The account is safe but my drug supply is very, very suspect at the moment.

Steen? What have you done this time, Steen?

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted December 11, 2007 12:12      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've been too busy buying a house and getting work done on it in preparation for moving in, actually, and have not had time to be my normal, wacky, irritating self.

Once I get the wood flooring installed, I'll post pictures [Smile]

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted December 11, 2007 12:25      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:

Once I get the wood flooring installed, I'll post pictures [Smile]

Ooh -- I'd like a thread about flooring -- I gotta think about this soon. What are you using?

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