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Author Topic: Describe your perfect political party
Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2007 17:16      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So I was thinking about this topic on my way home from work tonight. How would you describe your perfect political party? That is, if one group of people had the same beliefs and would rule your specified geographic territory, what would those beliefs be? If you'd like to explain each entry, you may, but I don't want this to get into a discussion where we just bash everyone and what they believe.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2007 17:58      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Rhonwyyn _______________________ You ask one hell of a good question.

Vat tax no income tax

Universal health care, some we can catch up with Europe.

Real border patrol not this feel good BS that is currently going on.

Do away with the secret courts and prisons.

Reestablish the Bill OF Rights. and stick to it, read Jefferson and Franklin they worried that what we are doing now was going to happon.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2007 18:50      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
September 27, 2007 17:16
How would you describe your ... political party?

I suppose I'm a "(Beyond-the-Short-term)-Cost/Benefit-Analysis-ism-ist."

quote:
"What good is a newborn baby?"
    -- Benjamin Franklin

... and now in perspective:

In Paris while observing the first successful hot air balloon flight, Franklin observed many skeptic people asking, "What good is it?" He replied, "What good is a newborn baby?" He could see potential in all new things.

A key ability for members: Know the difference between Socialism and Investment.
    (Note: Socialism tends to be "wasteful.")

"Free Milk" for a baby (generally speaking) is not socialism, even if beyond preserving one's own genetics.

It is an investment, assuming that (after some period in years) the value of the productive individual in society far exceeds the initial investment.

Note: A true socialist would hate my political party because of the goods and services it would refuse to spend money on.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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quantumfluff
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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2007 19:27      Profile for quantumfluff     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The perfect party would be fiscal conservative, social liberal. That is, you don't care what people actually DO, but you don't spend money on keep constituents happy for the sake of it. But more important, I want a party that does not care about ideology. I want them to look objectively at the costs of things. From that, a lot of things follow.

For example, socialized medicine is not good or bad in itself. What you have to do is a cost-benefit analysis to decide which way benefits society overall. You may find out that raising taxes for universal care is the right choice, but you also might find out that letting a few ten's of thousands of people slip through the cracks and die early is a more useful long term strategy.

I read an article in The Economist a few weeks ago where someone did this kind of analysis for diabetes. Every doctor I know will swear up and down that it is cheaper to give good care and emotional support to people with diabetes rather than waiting until their disease gets out of hand and they need a leg amputated. An economist did a study which showed it was cheaper for the insurance companies to not pay for well-care for N people, but to wait it out for the M people who needed an expensive surgery because M is much smaller than N.

The reality is that there is a fixed amount of resource to go around. You allocate things based on priorities. I want a party that makes the allocation explicit. There is no hope of that ever happening.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted September 28, 2007 01:01      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
80% or more of taxes being paid to the local goverment for local services(police, fire, road building ect.)

100% of the taxes being given to the local goverment to distribute so if the local goverment has a problem with the national goverment they can threaten not to give the national goverment thier tax moneys.

National goverment having no real power other than control of the army and control of the national bank.

National health care.

Won't start a war unless someone invades.

Goverments that promote long term development rather than short term gains.

All people that attend church being required to pay thier tithe based on income.(0.75% is a good percentage off the top)

A government that if they do something, they do it well, no matter the caost.

WooHoo, guess I am lucky becuase I have this. (not to say we don't have problems.)

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quantumfluff
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Icon 1 posted September 28, 2007 10:29      Profile for quantumfluff     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
National goverment having no real power other than control of the army and control of the national bank.

National health care.

Aren't those two statements mutually contradictory? If the feds are going to provide it, they have to be able to figure out how to pay for it and administer it.

You also have to let the federal government regulate interstate commerce. It was a good idea when they framed the constitution, and still is.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted September 28, 2007 11:33      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quantumfluff:
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
National goverment having no real power other than control of the army and control of the national bank.

National health care.

Aren't those two statements mutually contradictory? If the feds are going to provide it, they have to be able to figure out how to pay for it and administer it.

You also have to let the federal government regulate interstate commerce. It was a good idea when they framed the constitution, and still is.

I should have typed universal health care. All residents are required by law to purchase insurance. It is not like the health care sytemm in Canada.

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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted September 28, 2007 11:40      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ideally, I'd like to see a fiscally conservative, socially liberal party. Some key issues:

- Don't define marriage. Trying to ban homosexuals from marrying is just retarded.

- Don't ban abortions or, at the very least, let states decide on the issue for themselves.

- Don't kill gun-ownership rights. Though the only firearm I own is a twelve gauge, I still like the idea of being able to possess them, legally.

- Tighten up entitlement programs. Yeah, if you get laid off from that job you've been working for twenty years, we'll give you some pay and take care of your schooling for a new trade. But you /have/ to get a job. This is flexible; the balance between socialism and libertarianism depends on the current economic climate; a more socialized government was the answer during the Depression, but I'd say a more libertarian-style of government works better when there's better economic success.

- Fuck the rest of the world. We have most of the resources we need right now; we can't seem to interact with the rest of the world (damned if you do, damned if you don't) without creating a lot of tension. Whether that's their fault or ours (the USA's) is really kind of irrelevant at this point. This really means that we need to start developing our own energy supplies (we could power the entire country with wind, if we felt so inclined. Imagine what we could do with other resources?) and buttressing our commodity materials (steel, copper, nitrogen compounds, etc) industries along with our manufacturing industries.

- National Health Care seems like a good idea, but I'd add some stipulations to it. Basically, if you live an unhealthy lifestyle (smoke, are obese even though you don't have a "weight disorder", etc), yo pay more. Fair enough, yeah?

- Encourage poor people to not have babies. Unfortunately, the number-1 producer of new children is... poor people, who are unable to support them. This is broken, and needs to be fixed.

- Fix the schools. Gifted kids are a resource, not a burden; they should be developed as the country's next resources. Stupid kids get to work in factories.

- I think I already mentioned this, but we need to develop our energy resources better. Put money towards thermonuclear power plants, renewables (solar electric, solar heating, wind, geothermal, etc), and more efficient distribution (HVDC lines, hydrogen-cooled superconductors, etc). Additionally, energy storage mechanisms should be researched: carbon and hydrogen fixation into synthetic hydrocarbons (if you pulled these from the atmosphere, you'd have an essentially closed carbon cycle), better batteries, those nifty superconductor current-ring thingies, and reservoir storage.

- And finally, you may not vote unless you have a highschool diploma or equivalent. If you are a politician, you may not vote on legislation unless you have a degree in the field that legislation deals with (i.e., no voting on the budget unless you understand economics, no voting on energy policy unless you are a chemist, electrical engineer, physicist, or combination thereof; no voting on environmental policy unless you have a biology degree. Stuff like that).

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Reedius
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Icon 1 posted September 28, 2007 12:35      Profile for Reedius     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
IMO, The ideal political party would be presided by a a multi-millionaire hippie, a multi-millionaire cientist with a very high IQ,a multi-millionaire psicologist and by a multi-millionaire person with extremely high moral values wich unable her to do bad things.

I think that with those people leading a country, the first thing i would do would be to catch a plain to that country. [Big Grin]

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Geek or Nerd?

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2007 16:33      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Rhonwyyn _____________________ Here to me is the problems.

Gun Control

Birth Control

Very Conservitive Religion

Abortion

Taxes

States Rights

Constitutional Rights.

Liberal

Conservitive

Each candidate will be measured by most voters against these topics, however most voters are one issue voters not the blend of who would be best for the country, In the last sixty years I think that the only two who put the country first were Harry S. Trueman and D.D. Isinhower (sic).

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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ASM65816
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Icon 5 posted September 30, 2007 09:40      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
RE: "Threats to National Security"
quote:
September 28, 2007 01:01
Won't start a war unless someone invades.

Wanting to "Destroy the US" isn't invasion. Does that mean attacks of any number and size are acceptable, as long as the US isn't actually "invaded"?

Note: Does that include cases where no official document is delivered to the US State Department, the kind where one or more nations give notice that they are to be the recipients of military retaliation?
 

quote:
September 29, 2007 16:33
Here to me is the problems.

I notice "Threats to National Security" isn't listed.

During the "great Clinton administration," foreign groups with a common goal of "destroy the US" openly declared war on the US and carried out attacks against the US and US interests.

Foreign entities constantly steal intellectual property from US interests: piracy of software, piracy of entertainment goods (music/video), and theft of industrial technology.
 

quote:
  • Taxes
  • States Rights
  • Constitutional Rights.
  • etc ... etc ...
Each candidate will be measured by most voters against these topics
Uh ... what? "Voters Against The Topics"?

"How" a candidate plans to accomplish anything is irrelevant?

Why do I get the feeling that you'd like the "I-got-mine-so-screw-you" party? (That's what you get when responsibilities are ignored, and people just "give" themselves everything.)

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Zwilnik

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Icon 1 posted September 30, 2007 12:39      Profile for Zwilnik   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
very easy this one. My perfect political party (and I suspect this really applies to most people) is me.

No matter which sleezebag gets voted in or seizes power, they're always going to come up with something I don't like. Put me in power though and I'll agree with every decision the government makes [Smile]

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The most important of which is the element of surprise.

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Richard Wolf VI
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Icon 10 posted October 01, 2007 00:11      Profile for Richard Wolf VI   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That's a tough one. I would have to say April 25th. Because it's not too hot, not too cold, all you need is a light jacket. [Razz]

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2007 06:25      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quantumfluff:
The perfect party would be fiscal conservative, social liberal. That is, you don't care what people actually DO, but you don't spend money on keep constituents happy for the sake of it. But more important, I want a party that does not care about ideology. I want them to look objectively at the costs of things. From that, a lot of things follow.

Why do you not think the Democrats fit this description QF, at least the fiscally conservative part? From a world perspective the US hasn't had a mainstream socially progressive party since the days of FDR and the New Deal. Nearly all major parties in Western democracies are fiscally conservative now, the Reagan/Thatcher revolution is over, done dusted and accepted by everyone now. Indeed I would argue the Democrats in recent years have a better record than the Republicans, who talk the talk, but under whom the budget deficit tends to balloon.

It was a Democrat administration that put all their programs on hold to correct that, after the Reagan/Bush years, arguably setting the stage for the strong performance of the US economy during the '90s. Right now the budget deficit has ballooned again, because you can't run long term wars and give tax cuts at the same time, and the price of the dollar remains as high as it does now only because China is buying your dollars. The US economy is once again looking wobbly, and you are in hock to China too. It surprises me that not more of you are worried by that.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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fs

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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2007 10:41      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
Right now the budget deficit has ballooned again, because you can't run long term wars and give tax cuts at the same time, and the price of the dollar remains as high as it does now only because China is buying your dollars. The US economy is once again looking wobbly, and you are in hock to China too. It surprises me that not more of you are worried by that.

Right now I find a certain level of relief in the fact that I currently reside outside the U.S., in large part because the economic situation in the U.S. looks like one of those things that is going to get worse before it gets better. (Though the falling dollar does make visiting less of an expense.)

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Serenak

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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2007 14:57      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Have none of you ever read either the great "Starship Troopers" (forget the film - fun though it was) or "The Forever War"? Diametrically opposed views of both the future, war, and politics to a large extent... both have funny and dark parts...

One takes the "right wing" view and takes a lead from the Roman Empire - the other takes a stranger "history takes its own path" road.

To my mind, though written independently and from differing points of view, and for different reasons, they are a perfect pair - an ideal compare and discuss "binary pair" which don't directly reflect the politics of their time - but explore the underlying "memes" of the post Vietnam period...

Maybe there are newer matching pairs "American Phycho" + ?, "The Wasp Factory" + ?, my reading is not as up to date as it should be...

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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2007 17:04      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think I'd prefer a moderately anti-federalist party. I believe a lot of responsibilities have been gathered at the federal level that could be better handled (or at least screwed up less) at the state and local level of government.

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Metasquares
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2007 21:36      Profile for Metasquares   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My favorite party is none at all. If politicians can't think for themselves on issues, they're not the sort of people I want in office. Parties violate the doctrine of the separation of powers, besides.
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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 02, 2007 17:45      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ASM65816 _____________________ Finally you said something that is near the truth.

"Why do I get the feeling that you'd like the "I-got-mine-so-screw-you" party? "

But here is the rub YOU think I feel that way but what YOU think I feel, may be wrong. Actually it is.

The point I was trying to make is that too many voters are one issue voters. We can't vote for him because of his stand on issue one, however every other issue that candidate supports may not be better for the country, and the other candidates may be better for the country.

I am still back to HST and DDE as the best recent presidents.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted October 03, 2007 05:53      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I agree with you about Truman. He was President in extremely difficult times with some impossible choices to make (Hiroshima, McCarthyism, and Korea were all part of the mix), so he could never be regarded as a especially successful at the time, but he was was a most astute and effective politician, and a genuinely good man with no pretence, who to his great credit happily disappeared into obscurity and small town life on leaving office. His memoirs make fascinating reading. Eisenhower was IMO not nearly such a great president, though he had a much easier ride than Truman. I also can't help but mark him down a few notches for appointing Nixon as his Vice President. He was not really a political animal, but was much loved and admired both as a man and for his WW2 record.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 03, 2007 09:09      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Callipygous _________________________ Eisenhower did establish the national highway defense system now known as the US Interstate Hwys. He helped make sure that Social Security was protected, at least back then. To me the only questionable thing he did was send advisers to Vietnam, then Kennedy didn't know how to get out.

Both of thes fine men thought first of the country not how to enrich them selves and or their cronies. I also have high regard for James Carter, he went back to Plains Ga. and works on habitat for humanity houses. That must be real fun for his protective service squad.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted October 03, 2007 13:45      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Carter also goes bouncing around the world playing diplomat. Though that might actually be easier on a security detail than building houses.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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