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Author Topic: I find this puzzling...
garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2007 10:19      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Perhaps you will too...

Where are the feminists when they are needed most? [Confused]

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2007 12:03      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
(Edited for better clarity. I hope.)

If I'm not mistaken, the National Post is mostly a right-aligned newspaper. At least it would explain the strange feminism = left = anti-war = anti-american = pro-arab logic. The last equality is specially skewed, yet it is used to explain the feminists' silence. (Or maybe he is just deaf? Or listening to the battle hymns rather than the people marching in the streets?)

Plus those subjects shouldn't only concern feminists, but every human on the planet, man and woman, adult and child, here and out there.

I'll offer a much more probable explanation for the westerners' "silence": inertia. Average (by opposition to leaders) activists will more easily rise and manifest for revendications close to their lives. When it happens somewhere else, one needs some level of awareness, usually through a explosive example or a major paper publication. It happened for Betty Mahmoody, after she wrote "Not Without My Daughter". Or dowry related deaths in India.

The saddest part is, in most cases, it happens in country who don't give a d*mn what "westerners" are thinking. So people marching in Montreal, Monaco or Minneapolis won't do much but have opportunistic politicians present a motion against the case at hand. There are usually no effect on the individual sentences. Or it affects one particular case, likeAmina Lawal's, and leave every other in the dark, awaiting some light. But can we expect people to go protest two or three times a week for the same thing?

But still, every once in a while, such a subject is picked by socially-conscious organisms and organize some activities - marchs, but also study groups, conferences and the like -, or protest many things at once, like the annual World March of Women. (For equally depressing matters on the world's women well-being, there is also excision, still largely perpetrated even in countries that have officially shunned - or even outlawed - the practice.)

So I read that story and I see more of a gratuitious attack on the anti-war people (I am feminist, left-leaning and anti-war, but I am not pro-Arab - nor anti-Arab, mind you - and definitely not pro-woman-killing-for-men's-convenience) than a real outrage.

Or does the journalist needs the protest to be led by feminists for him to join in?

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Galileo Galilei

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2007 12:26      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
(hit the wrong button - sorry!)

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Galileo Galilei

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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2007 13:34      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think what they are trying to point out is why people like Hilary Clinton will hug Arafat's wife, treat Ahmadinejad as a statesman, and keep telling us that we should respect "other cultures" for their "diversity". People that tell us that crazed maniacs who bomb and kill innocents and behead people because they are Jews, or westerners or anything other than Muslims (other sects of Muslims are also considered fair game) do it because it is somehow our fault.

We need to recognize that there are bad people out there and their evil goes further than not just killing "Evil Americans". They are people who kill anyone that disagrees with them and they are bad people.

And we need to stop them before they achieve their goal of total annihilation of all non-Muslims (and other Muslim sects that do not agree with them).

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2007 16:16      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
How is it wrong to hug Arafat's wife? Did she create that "honor killing" law? Did she killed anyone for it? Did she openly condone it? I doubt so. I see two women of different cultures hugging as a sign of openness, a will to find peace beyond differences.

And treating Ahmadinejad as a statesman has one advantage: it gives them someone to talk to about their concerns.

Being able to say: "we respect you and your culture, but we wish you could change this or that" usually gives better results than just saying: "we hate your ways, therefore we will come to civilize you!" Honor killing, excision, stoning - they all stem from millenia of belief - sometimes even predating Islam; no matter how horrible they are, can't we give ourselves a few decades to change those ways of thinking?

And the article doesn't point anyone in particular, just feminists, without distinction - which is just as bad as blaming all muslims for 9-11.

Oh, and maybe you'd like to remember that not all bad guys are muslim, either. (Think Kim Jong Il.) Fanatics and extremists are but a minority, but disparaging their culture and general hostility only gives them more sympathetic ears and manipulable minds to use for their goals.

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Galileo Galilei

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Icon 1 posted September 22, 2007 06:22      Profile for Mr Agreeable     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
We need to recognize that there are bad people out there...
They are people who kill anyone that disagrees with them and they are bad people.

And we need to stop them before they achieve their goal of total annihilation of all non-Muslims (and other Muslim sects that do not agree with them).

I agree.
Fanatics who want to kill anyone who disagrees with them must be hunted down and killed.

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Infinitesimal
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Icon 1 posted September 23, 2007 18:07      Profile for Infinitesimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Agreeable:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
We need to recognize that there are bad people out there...
They are people who kill anyone that disagrees with them and they are bad people.

And we need to stop them before they achieve their goal of total annihilation of all non-Muslims (and other Muslim sects that do not agree with them).

I agree.
Fanatics who want to kill anyone who disagrees with them must be hunted down and killed.

This would be better than them how? that concept while maybe being effective seems to be more than a little wrong and would only serve to make martyrs of them and make them angrier still at the western world.

Responding to extremism with more extremism will achieve very little other than war.

Thats my 10c AU worth anyway.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted September 23, 2007 19:17      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think Infintesimal that Mr Agreeable's comment is ironic.

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted September 23, 2007 20:59      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
September 22, 2007 06:22
Fanatics who want to kill anyone who disagrees with them must be hunted down and killed.

September 23, 2007 18:07
This would be better than them how? that concept while maybe being effective seems to be more than a little wrong and would only serve to make martyrs of them and make them angrier still at the western world.

Responding to extremism with more extremism will achieve very little other than war.

Wars generally don't run on forever. In the case of WWII, it lasted about 6 years and about 3.7% of the world population died. War is not extremism -- it tends to be a "natural" response to "acts of war."

As with crime, doing "nothing" in response to extremism is an unwise policy (locking extremists away permanently would serve the same function as killing them).

Ideally, if a very small portion of a nation's population makes a habit of killing the unarmed citizens of other countries, the majority of the population should realize:
  • Habitually killing the citizens of other countries is considered an act of war. (Although the country which is attacked will probably issue "cease and desist" warnings before going to war.)
     
  • Murder is a crime, and letting it continue because it hasn't hurt you personally is "not good."
     
  • Hindsight of "our police could have caught the thousand people killing foreigners and prevented a war" isn't very useful after war is raging and a million people are dead.


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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted September 24, 2007 09:16      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Agreeable:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
We need to recognize that there are bad people out there...
They are people who kill anyone that disagrees with them and they are bad people.

And we need to stop them before they achieve their goal of total annihilation of all non-Muslims (and other Muslim sects that do not agree with them).

I agree.
Fanatics who want to kill anyone who disagrees with them must be hunted down and killed.

OUCH! BURN!
Should I also bring to light the countless campaigns of democratic nations to "Stop the spread of Communism" and "Prolong our way of life" and to "Protect our way of life" in which every campaign results in the installation of a Democratic Government. Or perhaps we should talk about the Spanish/Protestant inquisitions in which both countries did just that. How about the tribal wars in Africa and the battles between nations in feudal japan or Punic Wars and the rest of the expansion of the Roman Empire. Lets just kill everyone.

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Stereo

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Icon 12 posted September 24, 2007 09:54      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
Lets just kill everyone.

Motion seconded - humans are the source of all that is bad in this world: climate change, abusive farming, animal slaughtering, heavy metal pollution, ozone layer destruction, etc.

Now the problem is, can we find a way to extermine the human race without polluting the world even more? Forget the atomic bomb, the lead from the bullets is almost as bad, poison at such a scale is doomed to kill animals too... I got it! Let's just have a lot of unprotected sex with any and everyone, AIDS will kill us all in the end!

... [Confused] ...

Wait, isn't that what the hippies were trying to do? [Wink]

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted September 24, 2007 10:11      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Stereo wrote:
I got it! Let's just have a lot of unprotected sex with any and everyone

Already working toward that....

*adjusts his halo*

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted September 24, 2007 12:32      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
Lets just kill everyone.

Motion seconded - humans are the source of all that is bad in this world: climate change, abusive farming, animal slaughtering, heavy metal pollution, ozone layer destruction, etc.

Now the problem is, can we find a way to extermine the human race without polluting the world even more? Forget the atomic bomb, the lead from the bullets is almost as bad, poison at such a scale is doomed to kill animals too... I got it! Let's just have a lot of unprotected sex with any and everyone, AIDS will kill us all in the end!

... [Confused] ...

Wait, isn't that what the hippies were trying to do? [Wink]

I suggest a neutron bomb. The whole point is far lesser amount of fallout they produce.

Of course, the only reason all those things you cited are bad is because we're here to experience them; if we weren't, they wouldn't be bad. Tree-falling-on-a-hippy-in-the-middle-of-a-forest scenario.

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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted September 24, 2007 13:36      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nerdwithnofriends:
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
Lets just kill everyone.

Motion seconded - humans are the source of all that is bad in this world: climate change, abusive farming, animal slaughtering, heavy metal pollution, ozone layer destruction, etc.

Now the problem is, can we find a way to extermine the human race without polluting the world even more? Forget the atomic bomb, the lead from the bullets is almost as bad, poison at such a scale is doomed to kill animals too... I got it! Let's just have a lot of unprotected sex with any and everyone, AIDS will kill us all in the end!

... [Confused] ...

Wait, isn't that what the hippies were trying to do? [Wink]

I suggest a neutron bomb. The whole point is far lesser amount of fallout they produce.

Of course, the only reason all those things you cited are bad is because we're here to experience them; if we weren't, they wouldn't be bad. Tree-falling-on-a-hippy-in-the-middle-of-a-forest scenario.

I hear Tree-falling-on-a-hippy-in-the-middle-of-a-forest scenario happens quite often. Someone should start some sort of "Save the Hippies" foundation.
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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted September 24, 2007 21:07      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
I hear Tree-falling-on-a-hippy-in-the-middle-of-a-forest scenario happens quite often. Someone should start some sort of "Save the Hippies" foundation.

I thought that's what Universities were for?

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"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted September 25, 2007 09:09      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nerdwithnofriends:
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
I hear Tree-falling-on-a-hippy-in-the-middle-of-a-forest scenario happens quite often. Someone should start some sort of "Save the Hippies" foundation.

I thought that's what Universities were for?
No, no, no! That's what Al Gordo and the DNC are for! [Big Grin]
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fs

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Icon 1 posted September 30, 2007 09:23      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
Perhaps you will too...

Where are the feminists when they are needed most? [Confused]

You mean where are the Canadian Feminists? Or did you mean the American feminists (who have their hands full with a country increasingly inhospitable to their own civil rights)? Or did you mean the Jordanian feminists? Or the Egyptian ones? Or the Saudi ones? Or the Pakistani ones?

There are a multitude of issues facing women in every society in every nation. To assume that every woman on the planet should drop everything to focus on one and only one issue ("Today Islamic oppression should be the first item on the agenda of every women's organization in the country," deemed most important by a man, naturally) seems an idea that is a little black-and-white-with-us-or-against-us Bushian in its formulation.

Why is honor killing the most important issue, rather than genital mutilation, which has no religious basis in Islam? Or the desperate situation of Iraqi widows with no social support systems? (Gone are any pension funds from the Iraqi government they would have received pre-invasion.) Why is this more desperate than the rape of baby girls in South Africa because sex with a virgin is a superstitious "cure" for AIDS? Why is this more important than the struggle of women in Ireland or Poland for reproductive freedom? Why is this more important than the social attitudes that lead to prenatal sex identification in order to abort a female fetus in China and India? Why is this more important than the support of education and economic independence for women in Afghanistan?

Is the concern that feminists are somehow unaware of some of the barbarism that still exists today in other nations without men to point it out? I assure you, we are fully aware of honor killings, female circumcision, abuse, domestic violence and rape, and the host of other issues that plague women around the world.

Perhaps the suggestion is that liberated Western feminists should be launching an offensive, telling the oppressed Middle Eastern and Asian women what sort of freedom and liberation they need, what the most serious issues facing them are? Maybe carpet bomb their cities, since that always helps promote freedom, democracy, and social equality? Maybe all the feminists around the globe should form a private security force and pack up and go to Egypt or Syria or Jordan and attempt to restructure their society, through force if necessary?

Women have a right to live in societies that treat them as equals, that protect their human and civil rights on par with those of men as a matter of course, where they have physical, political and economic freedom. They also have the right to be the driving influence that determines the what needs to be addressed, and how, in that society. The role for international feminist organizations is to support those local feminist groups, not to order, control, or dictate to them.

And well-fed, Western, right-wing xenophobes have no right to appropriate the struggles of women around the globe as a tool in their propaganda to try to leverage political support for their war-mongering and cultural imperialism. Apparently it escapes Robert Fulford that those same women he wants to use in support of his anti-Islam stance are also Muslims. Or maybe they don't count because they are women?

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted September 30, 2007 18:29      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
September 30, 2007 09:23
Apparently it escapes Robert Fulford that those same women he wants to use in support of his anti-Islam stance are also Muslims.

I'll try to rephrase that: "If you belong to <Group_X>, being against practices by members of <Group_X> is not reasonable."

I think there are plenty of cases where one should not accept another's actions under the excuse that "we belong to the same group."

Let's assume I'm "white." Then let's assume some individuals of the "white" group decide to take every opportunity to punch me in the nose. I guarantee you that I will not accept abuse from another human being, simply because "we both belong to <Group_X>." (Your social norms may be different.)

Given a different situation: A child is sexually assaulted by a family member. How understanding are you in the case where no one speaks out against the family member that committed the assault?

Is a "revenge killing" simply the best way to deal with the issue? (No investigation, no court, no disclosure of sordid details of family secrets.)

Should people be "closer" to members of one's own family, or members of one's religion?
 

quote:
And well-fed, Western, right-wing xenophobes have no right .....
Just an observation: It seems like the list of people being abused by "very religious" Muslim men is rather long, so the question from the "well-fed, Western, right-wing" is: Why is everybody else taking the abuse from Muslim men like a bunch of gimps?

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 30, 2007 18:43      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hmmm, ASM grossly misinterprets fs's statement, and wastes the rest of his post attacking his gross distortion of her views.
Why am I not surprised?

You know ASM, if you tried to respond to what people actually wrote, rather than knocking down your own warped parodies, people might take you seriously.

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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2007 01:49      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Hmmm, ASM grossly misinterprets fs's statement, and wastes the rest of his post attacking his gross distortion of her views.
Why am I not surprised?

You know ASM, if you tried to respond to what people actually wrote, rather than knocking down your own warped parodies, people might take you seriously.

If he did that, the comedic value of reading threads in the Politics/Religion/Current Affairs section would be decreased by a factor of 5. [Big Grin]

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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2007 15:16      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This planet has a disease... the disease is a nasty, hard to eradicate, and very resilient one called "humanity" - being personally one of the little bacterial causes of this complaint I am not overly keen to espouse the cure... but sooner or later either we moderate our own level of "parasitism" to one the host can withstand or we all die with the host...

Now to some level I can live with that... but most diseases have a natural tendency to spread to new hosts, leaving the original host (hopefully) with a lower but sustainable level of infection [yes this is an allegory... don't go giving me a lecture on the reality [Big Grin] ]

But for some reason we (as the disease) seem to be like a nasty acute infection that doesn't care if the host dies and takes us with it...

Why are we not serious about moving out of the nest and "infecting" other places leaving the host to breed more of us?

Just a thought...

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2007 15:47      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
fs [thumbsup] [thumbsup] to your post. This thread also links to a nice article on pointless phony calls to outrage. It seems to be a favourite ploy of the right at the moment. I suppose it serves as a distraction from the busted flush of their own policies. It would of course be a different matter if there was a local movement asking for international support, and which was being ignored, but that is not the case. Grown up politics is about the art of the possible, rather than striking attitudes.

Serenak??? perhaps we'll speak again later when the drugs have worn off... [Wink]

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ASM65816
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Icon 5 posted October 01, 2007 19:41      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Part I. Say Things in a More Thoughtful Way
quote:
October 01, 2007 15:47
This thread also links to a nice article on pointless phony calls to outrage.

September 30, 2007 09:23
We are fully aware of honor killings, female circumcision, abuse, domestic violence and rape, and the host of other issues that plague women around the world.

Phony outrage? As if you don't believe people could be "outraged" by the killings and so forth?

Advice: Next time say "I agree it's terrible, but I think there are worse things."

That way you don't sound like:
quote:
Leftist Lunatic: Killing isn't a problem!!! Rape isn't a problem!!! You're the problem!
 

Part II. Where Is the Solution?
quote:
September 30, 2007 09:23
Why is honor killing the most important issue ...?

from article:
Today Islamic oppression should be the first item on the agenda of every women's organization in the country.

Why is "honor killing" a less important issue?

Assuming that everyone focuses on "more important issues," when will practices like "honor killing" end if no one confronts them?

quote:
... a tool in their propaganda to try to leverage political support for their ... cultural imperialism.
Would Islamic culture be destroyed if "honor killing" ended?

What is the best argument for allowing "honor killing" to continue?
 

Part III. Does Change Occur by Any Other Means?
quote:
from article:
Women should remember that their triumphs resulted from vigorous campaigning in the 20th century.

If people say nothing, and people do nothing, how does society change for the better?

Doesn't "say nothing, do nothing" leave you with the status quo?

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted October 02, 2007 04:49      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
Advice: Next time say "I agree it's terrible, but I think there are worse things."

Pure.
Comedy.
Gold.

ASM, surely you're not suggesting that 1 == 94???

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