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Author Topic: Ron Paul
Colonel Panic
BlabberMouth, the Next Generation
Member # 1200

Icon 1 posted September 02, 2007 07:03      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
In a couple of other threads ome posters have mentioned the candidacy of Ron Paul for President of the USA.

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/about/

Ya-Ya-Woman I believe one of the last people to mention this. I thought it might be a good topic for a thread.

As a younger man I investigated this kind of conservatism -- one form is known as Libertarianism -- and found the ideal flawed.

The idea appears simple -- little government, we'll all live in Cumbuya peope, except for when we have to pull down the shootin' iron and join the militia or ... well ...

Two conclusions always dominated the ends of this philosophy: Anarchy or Corporate Feudalism. It always seemed likely that when government was pared down to beneath the size of monied/corporate interests, then the monied/corporate interests would win; or at least annex the government for its own purposes.

Fantasy? No, by no means. It is U.S. History. A few titles and links to get the juices flowing are below.

The challenge here, for the more conservative posters is to demonstrate how their view of paradise will work. Give examples.

To me "deregulation" is simply another name for lawlessness.

Mountain Meadows Massacre

http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/mormons.html

http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_mass.htm

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/mtn_meadows/index.html


Range Wars

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/mtn_meadows/index.html


Mining Murders and Massacres

Ludlow Massacre

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/rockefellers/sfeature/sf_8.html

Columbine Mine Massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_Mine_Massacre

http://www.sdhistory.org/mus/ed/ed%20mine2.htm


Modern Mining Deregulation

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/m/mines_and_mining/mining_disasters/index.html?query=UNITED%20STATES&field=geo&match=exact


Colonel Panic

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Posts: 1809 | From: Glacier Melt, USA | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2007 16:09      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hello col.

I am at work tonite, but as soon as I have the time to check out the links you provided and think a bit I'll be responding.
[Big Grin]

EDIT: Found the time. Here goes.

I believe that any form of "ism" wont work. Libertarianism, liberalism, conservatism. "isms" founder and crack when reality hits them.
What really sucks is that I dont have any answers. Sometimes I wish I did, it would make life easier. Most times I am happy I dont. I figure if I thought I had THE answer, I would stop thinking and questioning and wondering. Sometimes that pain in the ass questioning is focused on conservative issues, sometimes liberal.
The nearest I can peg myself and my views is fiscally conservative and socially liberal.

I dont think a pure libertarian view would be viable in todays world, but neither does the left over 60's free love view either.

I popped up in the vicks post and brought ron paul up only because someone (TFD?) made a comment about principals and lobby money. I responded because of one thing I have seen from his voting record,is that he votes his talk. Always. I find that incredibly refreshing. Shit, when Mccain himself not only ENGAGES in a DEBATE over torture, but backs the PTB on it....I dont have words to describe how I felt watching that. Or watching other politicians say one thing, get elected, do another. It is kinda like throwing up in your mouth, over and over and over.

The novelty of a congresscritter actually voting his book is almost enough to get me to vote for him, but not quite there. The main reason right now I am very heavily considering getting involved in the actual political process before the election(yikes!) is the fiscal component. I firmly believe we are at the very beginning of a perfect financial storm and I have very little faith in the regular old dem and rep abilities to deal with it. (Housing bubble busting, commercial paper tanking, liquidity seizing, fudged and distorted economic/gov't statistics, bank insolvency and USA's bankruptcy, outsourcing and the dark side of globalization) phuck, I dont think anyone will be able to. (but I am a genetic pessimist, so that just may be my "we are screwed" personality popping out there [Wink] )

I guess right now I am still amazed that I am getting involved in the process. yeah, i've voted here and there, but never taken it seriously, never been even remotely passionate about it. Many years I never even voted. I used the old line about no difference in candidates, sending a message by not getting involved, one vote doesnt matter but honestly the truth I have recently realized was that I was nothing but lazy. Too lazy to register, too lazy to find the voting station for my address, too lazy to take the 10minutes to go to the poll, but more than happy to dress my laziness up in a smug, superior excuse.

I did check out your links. I am confused. The meadow massacre seems to me that a bunch of religious zealots massacred 120 people just trying to go through. Did you post that to make apoint about religious zealots and intolerance or about government?

The link about rockefeller and the miners. yes we needed the regs from govt for safety, we needed the unions to create a protective barrier. I wonder however how much the unions became the "boss" and circled around. Was the solution that evolved into problem? Just wondering out loud there.

Oh, and about corporate feudalism? We are already there just many dont realize it. Look at the FED, look at Goldman Sachs, research how many govt positions are held by goldman people. lotsa lotsa. simplified there, but check out the investment banks. In the next 6 months we will find out the investment banks hand in hand with the hedge funds have drained and raped pension funds across the land, from CALPERS to little community funds.

I am babbling here. sorry. I will stop. anyways, have to go work now.

I hope everyone has a great labor day. [Big Grin]

Posts: 765 | From: virginia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
CommanderShroom
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
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Icon 1 posted September 03, 2007 05:04      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nice response Yaya.

Can I add a ditto?

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Posts: 2465 | From: Utarrrrggggghhh!!!!!!!! | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted September 03, 2007 06:43      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thank you shroom. Of course you can add a ditto.

By the way, I have been hearing alot of foreclosure news about riverside and San bernadino counties. What is a boots on the ground opinion? (just cuz I looooove a good disaster story [Razz] )

Posts: 765 | From: virginia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted September 03, 2007 07:22      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I remember that love of a good disaster. But there is nothing to worry about.

I see a lot of houses for sale all right, but I think the banks are buying. Most of them have "Bank Owned" on them. [Wink]

Truth of the matter in my little hole in the desert there is usually a For Sale on each block, with good pockets of 3-4. Nothing is really moving.

I am waiting for the bank to come grab up one in particular, but so far it is still in the clear.

A few people I know were trying for some consolidation loans recently, and even with decent scores, they were refused. So it is definitely not a blip.

A friend in construction has been having a bad time getting steady work and same with an Ex-in-law that does RV service. Things are just bad slow for everything but the necessities.

--------------------
Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

Posts: 2465 | From: Utarrrrggggghhh!!!!!!!! | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Colonel Panic
BlabberMouth, the Next Generation
Member # 1200

Icon 1 posted September 04, 2007 06:12      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ya-Ya,

Yes, the Mountain Meadows massacre was commited by religious zealots. Some of the range wars started out nothing more than personal feuds. Other wars were corporate in nature.

The common denominator here is a weak Federal Government, along with small corporate, personal, religious and other militias. Those militias appear far from the concept of "well-regulated militia" the writers on the Constitution contemplated.

Yes, I understand there are forms of corporate feudalism entrenched right now. "Hire at will" laws in most states legitimize this. The government can't tell you what to say or how to worship, but an employer can.

CP

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Posts: 1809 | From: Glacier Melt, USA | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted September 12, 2007 16:43      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I meant to reply earlier, but I forgot.

I work in an employment at-will state. They called the law "right to work". I giggle a bit when I hear that because I have this image of a rather semi-educated blue collar along with pink collar cousins barely a rung above shouting at the polls "yeehaw, right to work? yessir, jobs for all. lets vote yes". My bitter humor aside, I have no problem with the work at will laws so far personally except for one issue. It is written as at-will on both the employer and employee so an employee can technically stop work at anytime and leave without notice etc but in practice employers really still expect the courtesy. What happened to good for the goose etc?

The factory I work for goes to great lengths to avoid shutdowns and layoffs and because of that I would definitely give them notice.

Dollar tanking sharply, housing toast, carry trade unwinding, hedge funds imploding, japan and russia getting new prime ministers, bin ladens call to islam, israel bombing syria....I think I will have enough on my worry dish that me giving two weeks or not is smallllll potatos.(potatoes?) [Wink]

PS I am blue collar myself and there is a portion of the something for nothing crowd in the blue collar world, but having watched the commercial paper market come to a standstill and the 100+ imploded mortgage lenders and the issues facing the banks, i think a large portion of other socio-economic rungs have that issue too.

Posts: 765 | From: virginia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wingless
Mini Geek
Member # 10751

Icon 1 posted September 12, 2007 17:29      Profile for Wingless     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This might be a very small thing, but after reading through this & then contemplating past political parties I found it amusing that much of it boils right down to one question: How much do you want the government to interfere in your life?

I don't have a politically savvy answer.

Posts: 94 | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
Colonel Panic
BlabberMouth, the Next Generation
Member # 1200

Icon 1 posted September 13, 2007 21:11      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Wingless:
This might be a very small thing, but after reading through this & then contemplating past political parties I found it amusing that much of it boils right down to one question: How much do you want the government to interfere in your life?

I don't have a politically savvy answer.

Wingless,

The issue here is how much do you want corporations to run your life?

I feel the question you posed is a bit of a red herring in that it assumes the government is more intrusive into our lives than corporations.

The government has not made the water in Lake Michigan so dirty that it is dangerous to eat the fish.

The government did not create the toxic mess that caused the Love Canal disaster.

The government did not create the California Energy Crisis.

In the USA I can speak out against the government (well that is ending now) but speaking out against a corporation is verboten.

Next time somebody breaks into your house, call a corporation and see if the visit is profitable for them.

Private corporations were in charge of airline security on 9/11. A lot of good that did us.

Check out some of the links at the beginning of the thread and you'll see there was a lot more intrusion by corporations before people created laws and a government to protect them from the criminal forces of corporate greed.

CP

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Posts: 1809 | From: Glacier Melt, USA | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wingless
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Icon 1 posted September 14, 2007 03:05      Profile for Wingless     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic:
quote:
Originally posted by Wingless:
This might be a very small thing, but after reading through this & then contemplating past political parties I found it amusing that much of it boils right down to one question: How much do you want the government to interfere in your life?

I don't have a politically savvy answer.

Wingless,

The issue here is how much do you want corporations to run your life?

I feel the question you posed is a bit of a red herring in that it assumes the government is more intrusive into our lives than corporations.

The government has not made the water in Lake Michigan so dirty that it is dangerous to eat the fish.

The government did not create the toxic mess that caused the Love Canal disaster.

The government did not create the California Energy Crisis.

In the USA I can speak out against the government (well that is ending now) but speaking out against a corporation is verboten.

Next time somebody breaks into your house, call a corporation and see if the visit is profitable for them.

Private corporations were in charge of airline security on 9/11. A lot of good that did us.

Check out some of the links at the beginning of the thread and you'll see there was a lot more intrusion by corporations before people created laws and a government to protect them from the criminal forces of corporate greed.

CP

I did check them out, actually. When I said "After reading through this..." I meant read through & clicked links. Guess I should've clarified more. Next, asking how much you want the government to interfere in your life connects with how much you want corporations to interfere in your life. Afterall, who has the power to stop corporation interference? Lastly, I was not asking anyone to answer said question. I said it all seems to boil down to.
Posts: 94 | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
Wingless
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Icon 1 posted September 14, 2007 04:17      Profile for Wingless     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic:
As a younger man I investigated this kind of conservatism -- one form is known as Libertarianism -- and found the ideal flawed.

The idea appears simple -- little government, we'll all live in Cumbuya peope, except for when we have to pull down the shootin' iron and join the militia or ... well ...

I decided to reread your original post, and then expand a little further.
Perhaps a better boiling down of this topic is "How much do you want the government to interfere with corporations?". My original conclusion was a next logical step. Consumers & the public deal with the corporations. They keep corporations in business. (No customers, no business.) Government interferes (in whatever varying degree one feels that it does/should) with corporations, setting laws etc. Corporations are then affected by how they can run their business. The public (consumers) is also affected by these laws, if only through the corporations. Therefore, the government is affecting how the public lives.

Also, if this was only about corporations then the links to the Mountain Meadows Massacre are irrelevent.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted September 14, 2007 05:03      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Colonel Panic wrote:
The issue here is how much do you want corporations to run your life?

I feel the question you posed is a bit of a red herring in that it assumes the government is more intrusive into our lives than corporations.

...

there was a lot more intrusion by corporations before people created laws and a government to protect them from the criminal forces of corporate greed.


Hmm... more common ground.

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Posts: 6364 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged


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