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Author Topic: Bush: Iraq is Just like Vietnam!
Colonel Panic
BlabberMouth, the Next Generation
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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2007 17:40      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Of course he wouldn't know what Vietnam was like --like some of us "traitors" do.

But wierdly his latest reason for staying in Iraq is a Vietnam analogy.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3512349&page=1

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2007/08/22/BL2007082201461.html?hpid=topnews

Crazy righties.

Colonel Panic

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2007 06:14      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GWB thinks the US left Vietnam "too soon". I would guess that what lies behind this is a very peculiar view of the history of the Vietnam War that I first read on that right wing web site Winter Soldier, whose main purpose was to attack Kerry's war record. They argued that at the time Nixon ended the Vietnam War it was at a turning point and with sufficient resolution it could have been won, but the US national morale had been sapped by a constant stream of negative stories in the liberal media over many years, so the US military was effectively defeated by the liberal media conspiracy.

An absurd view of course, and one I never expected to hear endorsed outside of those places populated by the kind of people who think the war on terror must eventually become a religious war against Islam.

Now while he hasn't yet gone so far as blaming the media for the Vietnam withdrawal, I do hope that Bush gets punished for this, as it is a piece of historical revisionism that Stalin himself would have admired.

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2007 08:41      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Three decades later, there is a legitimate debate about how we got into the Vietnam War and how we left. There's no debate in my mind that the veterans from Vietnam deserve the high praise of the United States of America. Whatever your position is on that debate, one unmistakable legacy of Vietnam is that the price of America's withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens whose agonies would add to our vocabulary new terms like "boat people," "re-education camps," and "killing fields.""

-US President George W. Bush, current Commander-in-Chief of US Military forces.

Seems reasonable enough to me.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2007 09:17      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
"Three decades later, there is a legitimate debate about how we got into the Vietnam War and how we left. There's no debate in my mind that the veterans from Vietnam deserve the high praise of the United States of America. Whatever your position is on that debate, one unmistakable legacy of Vietnam is that the price of America's withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens whose agonies would add to our vocabulary new terms like "boat people," "re-education camps," and "killing fields.""

-US President George W. Bush, current Commander-in-Chief of US Military forces.

Seems reasonable enough to me.

seems reasonable to me too, but..

I wonder if Bush realizes the price already paid by millions of innocent citizens in Iraq whose agonies have no words to describe them, and his role in the creation of these agonies?

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2007 13:17      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
GWB thinks the US left Vietnam "too soon". I would guess that what lies behind this is a very peculiar view of the history of the Vietnam War that I first read on that right wing web site Winter Soldier

I would guess what lies behind that view is the fact that GWB's dad pulled strings to keep him out of Vietnam.
It's easy to be in favour of 'staying the course' when you're not up to your arse in Mekong mud.

quote:
Quoth GWB:
Whatever your position is on that debate, one unmistakable legacy of Vietnam is that the price of America's interferance was paid by millions of innocent citizens

Fixed a minor error there.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2007 16:49      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
"To withdraw without getting the job done would be devastating. If we were to abandon the Iraqi people, the terrorists would be emboldened. They would use their victory to gain new recruits... Unlike in Vietnam, if we were to withdraw before the job was done, this enemy would follow us home."
I first heard this reported yesterday on the BBC, and the reporter there said that Bush argued that the US withdrew from Vietnam too soon. On reading the transcript I admit it is arguable, and he has been clever enough to make the speech ambiguous. I think this is what the Australians call dog whistle politics. IMO there is a clear implication in these words that he believes that the US withdrew from Vietnam too early, and that he thinks "the job" could have been done, and that the US should have held its nerve.

So no, it still smells pretty bad to me.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2007 17:09      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
If we were to abandon the Iraqi people, the terrorists would be emboldened. They would use their victory to gain new recruits... Unlike in Vietnam, if we were to withdraw before the job was done, this enemy would follow us home."
Sounds like a list of reasons not to start the war in the first place.

And they can't even claim they didn't see it coming.

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ASM65816
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Icon 5 posted August 23, 2007 19:41      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Assuming that you did not use knowledge of what happened in Vietnam after the Communist Party took power, and put an estimated 1 million people in "Re-education" camps......

Are you the kind of person that would have said:
  • "There's no way anyone could have known the Communists would impose totalitarian rule with severe violations of human rights, censorship, and the death of tens (or hundreds) of thousands. Besides, they're really not trying to grab power."
     
  • "Doing nothing is always the best decision. If one foreign country exerts its power and control in another country, interfering would make your country just the same as an invader."
     
    -- or --
     
  • "Unless your family or someone you know (and like) is killed, ignore it."


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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2007 20:12      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Frankly ASM, Garlic,

There have been people in my family fighting for this country's freedom since before it was a country.

Cousin Debbie keeps the diary of a corporal -- one that includes personal accounts of battles like Breed's Hill (Bunker Hill to the ill informed) -- that got Great Grandma her passage into the DAR.

There has been a member of my family in every conflict this nation has fought. That includes me. There have been a few in conflicts you will never hear about. AND YOU ASM -- A MILITARY WASHOUT -- QUESTION MY PATRIOTISM? There exists no words profane enough to describe what kind insult you have hurled at me and the members of my family who have served, and continue to serve, with distinction and bravery in armed services of the United States of America.

Huh? Wha? How DARE you?

When heros became targets, and war cowards became idols is just about the time this nation took a very, very, very bad turn.

You two have been spending way too much time in isolated cabins listening to way too much radio on the deep fringe. I think Cali has pretty much nailed who is for this calamity in Iraq.

Look I was over in Disneyland East (Not Orlando, dummy), and those folks would not fight for their own freedom -- why should I have fought for theirs?

Same thing goes for the Iraqi's. And they hate us more than the Vietnamese did.

They do a good enough job of killing each other off in the Middle East.

Let them do it.

We have our own problems to solve in this country. Maybe its time to get Janet Reno back in office to start clearing out the kook cabins again. We'll have to bring the troops back to do the job -- but they'll be well trained for the mission.

Colonel Panic

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Snaggy

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Icon 3 posted August 23, 2007 20:58      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I thought this was a very interesting read...
http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/23/the-power-of-right-wing-myth/

(I'm a sucker for a Star Trek reference [Razz] )

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted August 23, 2007 22:00      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic:
Frankly ASM, Garlic,
Look I was over in Disneyland East (Not Orlando, dummy), and those folks would not fight for their own freedom -- why should I have fought for theirs?

Firstly, let me say I'm glad you've been insulted. It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling that I have difficulty fully understanding, but wish I could hold onto forever.

Secondly, if you were drafted, I'm sorry to hear that (well, would be, if it wasn't... you). To paraphrase Heinlein, a country is seriously fucked up if it chooses to engage in wars that are so unpopular nobody will volunteer for them.

But if you're trying to use that same argument for troops today? Well, the answer is: because they get payed. Yes, there is a great honour in our military (my parents- both of them- were enlisted in the navy). But at this point in time, nobody is being forced to join the military; there are certain risks when you join such an organization. Perhaps this is why said organizations are experiencing a lack of enlistments? Food for thought.


Don't bother replying to this post; I won't read it, because despite some valid positions you may hold, you're an asshole, plain and simple.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted August 24, 2007 04:25      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Snaggy:
I thought this was a very interesting read...
http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/23/the-power-of-right-wing-myth/

(I'm a sucker for a Star Trek reference [Razz] )

Great read Snaggy. Thanks

NerdWNF & Col Panic let's just try to discuss this without personal insults. Let's also try not to lash back at angry posts even if we dislike the poster. Flame fests, even when the insults are original and well crafted are boring.

ASM you are missing the point, the war in Vietnam was just completely unwinnable. The US had poured troops, napalm, bombs, and agent orange into Vietnam on a scale you can barely conceive, and still out of the smoking ruins those pesky Viet Cong kept coming back at them. Real wars are not like an Arnold Schwarzeneggar movie, or a game of Doom. In a real war you can launch an almost unlimited amount of munitions at the enemy and still lose. Staying in Vietnam would only have put off the evil day, and at a terrible ongoing cost of life. No US president let alone a republican one would have ordered that withdrawal, if they could have seen even the faintest glimmer of a slim hope that the US could avoid the enormous trauma and national humiliation caused by this defeat, inflicted by a lightly armed guerrilla force from a small and impoverished country.

As Snaggy's link points out, the terrible after-effects of America's withdrawal were themselves products of that war in the first place. It's one of the reasons no sane leader takes his country to war. Wars like revolutions produce a turmoil that creates profound and completely unpredictable ripples of violent political and social change in the country concerned and her neighbours. We will not know the full effects of the Iraq war until many years after the US defeat which I fear is now inevitable.

Those that will not learn from history are condemned to repeat it. This is why those of us old enough to have lived through the Vietnam war are so profoundly depressed by this turn of events. Who would have thought that the terrible tragic lessons of that awful war could be so completely forgotten so quickly? Maybe it's because it was just such a painful scar on your national psyche, that it is easier to engage in some act of collective denial, and just pretend it never happened. Your president certainly always prefers to see the world as it should be rather than as it really is. To him Afghanistan is a beacon of hope in that area, Pakistan should have democratic elections very soon, and Maliki is a good guy doing a tough job. That may explain his fairy tale interpretation of the Vietnam war.

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted August 24, 2007 17:53      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nerdwithnofriends:
[QUOTE]]Firstly, let me say I'm glad you've been insulted. It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling that I have difficulty fully understanding, but wish I could hold onto forever ... you're an asshole, plain and simple.

But I'm not a nerd with no friends.

[Smile] [Smile] [Smile] [Smile] [Smile] [Smile] [Smile] [Smile]

Colonel Panic

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted August 24, 2007 18:05      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Some Related Facts


Time Magazine reporting on the casualties before the end of the Vietnam war:
“… a stunning 3 million Vietnamese — soldiers and civilians on both sides — had died (as did 58,000 American soldiers died as well) …
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1655694,00.html

BBC reports:
“An estimated 655,000 Iraqis have died since 2003 who might still be alive but for the US-led invasion …”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6040054.stm
And that number is almost a year old.


USA Today and others:
US Military Suicides at records highs:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2007-08-16-army-suicide_N.htm


Meanwhile, while the far right says we have to babysit the world, things aren’t that great here at home.

As reported by CNN:
“U.S. has second worst newborn death rate in modern world”
http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/parenting/05/08/mothers.index/index.html


Newsday & others reports:
Firefighters are still dying at the 911 site in New York City, six years after promises to rebuild.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--deutschebank-fire0818aug18,0,4484184.story?coll

The housing market has collapsed and we have a mortgage/financial crisis:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/nation-of-debt-lovers-suffers-mortgage-crisis/2007/08/24/1187462526656.html

And though we are supposed to help the rest of the world, we need to remember the same crowd who believes that,told New Orleans they were on their own:

MSNBC
“Katrina death toll is well over 1,300”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11281267 (Google and get numbers in excess of 4,000!)

Colonel Panic

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted August 24, 2007 18:24      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
quote:
Originally posted by Snaggy:
I thought this was a very interesting read...
http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/23/the-power-of-right-wing-myth/

(I'm a sucker for a Star Trek reference [Razz] )

Great read Snaggy. Thanks

NerdWNF & Col Panic let's just try to discuss this without personal insults. Let's also try not to lash back at angry posts even if we dislike the poster. Flame fests, even when the insults are original and well crafted are boring.

Cali,

I did like this part of the post:

"But instead of actually studying the life and words of Churchill for understanding, righties simply evoke the man as an archetype of bulldog, never-give-up tenacity ..."

What is impressive is that the dehumanizing term "righty" seems to be gaining in popularity. That's a Colonel Panic term, "righty" is.

This propagandist understands that before "righties" can be defeated they must be dehumanized. That is a righty trick and it works. In fact, forgiveness is understood by righty as weakness.

You might not like it Cali, but that is politics in the USA today. You gotta be Karl Rove to defeat him. The futue of the free world is at stake.

John Kerry learned the "Swiftboat" lesson in a painful manner. I cannot allow these insults to pass.

Plus, after many years on the standup comedy circuit, it's still comforting to practice the "heckler" material. Some people here are virtual pinatas.

CP

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 24, 2007 18:42      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
CP: you forgot to mention the 800,000 Cambodian civilians killed in the secret (and illegal) bombing of Cambodia.

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ASM65816
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Icon 2 posted August 25, 2007 09:30      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Part I: One Thing (since I don't have time for all for paranoid-delusional babble)
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic"

Some Related Facts

BBC reports:
“An estimated 655,000 Iraqis have died since 2003 who might still be alive but for the US-led invasion …”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6040054.stm
And that number is almost a year old.

from the article: "Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health estimate ...."

CP's definition of "facts" seems to differ from most dictionaries.

quote:
Iraq Body Count     http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

maximum of 77,121 killed by "US and its allies" as of Saturday, 25th August 2007

This is an ongoing human security project which maintains and updates the world’s only independent and comprehensive public database of media-reported civilian deaths in Iraq that have resulted from the 2003 military intervention by the USA and its allies. The count includes civilian deaths caused by coalition military action and by military or paramilitary responses to the coalition presence (e.g. insurgent and terrorist attacks). It also includes excess civilian deaths caused by criminal action resulting from the breakdown in law and order which followed the coalition invasion.

Simple math (rounded off): 577,000 Iraqis have been killed by the "insurgents" and their friends.
    (655K "total" - 78K "US" = leaves 577K "not US or its allies")

CP doesn't seem like the kind of guy to blame the person who "pulls the trigger" (or detonates a car bomb in a crowded market) for murder. Instead he goes after what he sees as "the cause of the cause of the murder."

Therefore, if a man brutally strangles 27 young women, he may be the immediate cause in murder, but the cause of the cause is "society made him become a murderer."

Verdict: The strangler should be cared for as a victim, and the millions (all conservatives, of course) that "made the strangler kill" should be locked away (or hanged during half-time at the Super Bowl).   [shake head]
 

Part II: "Real War"
quote:
August 24, 2007 04:25
Real wars are not like an Arnold Schwarzeneggar movie, or a game of Doom.

Those words are right:

    One guy (or a few guys) running around with .50 cal machine guns and ammo in arms (unrealistic) crushing platoon after platoon, and destroying dozens of tanks and helicopters -- does not happen.
 

quote:
... those pesky Viet Cong kept coming back at them.
Armed with Russian reports on US troop strength and movements, and an "unlimited" supply of Communist-made weapons.
 

quote:
In a real war you can launch an almost unlimited amount of munitions at the enemy and still lose.
Generally speaking ... you're wrong (and completely wrong under "scorched-earth" rules).

However, the "easiest" military victories come from eliminating the enemy's supply lines.

Under your assumptions, Milosovic and his Serbian army could have defeated the US and NATO peacekeepers in Bosnia ... except they just weren't "pesky" enough. The fact of the matter: No one was giving the Serbians an "unlimited" supply of weapons. In three years, their supply of weapons was reduced to the point of making war against the US and allies a hopeless proposition.
 

quote:
the war in Vietnam was just completely unwinnable.
Maybe you should have said: "As long as Russia could supply unlimited quantities of weapons to their Communist agents in Vietnam under the protection of the UN's policy of We-Didn't-See-Anything-and-Didn't-Know-That-Would-Happen, ... the US could not win unless the Communist superpowers collapsed."

Russia lost in Afghanistan because of the US weapons used against them. If you don't believe it, you're living the "Rambo"/"Doom" (video game) Delusion (as stated at the top of the post).
 

quote:
August 24, 2007 04:25
Those that will not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

Originally posted by ASM (August 23, 2007 19:41):
Are you the kind of person that would have said:

"There's no way anyone could have known the Communists would impose totalitarian rule with severe violations of human rights, censorship, and the death of tens (or hundreds) of thousands. Besides, they're really not trying to grab power."

Note: I have no idea how anyone could "think" a statement about predicting Communist behavior was "insulting" one's "patriotism"   [ohwell]

Your statement was exactly what I was going to say about the United Nations. When the Khmer Rouge went on their Communist killing spree, did the UN say "Wow, we didn't see that one coming." I'd like to find the UN quote about "Never Again" (on Rwanda), but it's difficult because the UN has said "Never Again" so many times.   [shake head]

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 25, 2007 13:41      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ASM: Have you considered the Salvation Army?

They don't get to play with guns, but you might get to learn to play the trombone, and they do have spiffy military-style uniforms.
They may well be the only 'army' who'll have you.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted August 25, 2007 15:57      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ASM, I know you have been told this many many times but you will be more likely to extract a reasoned reply if you attempt to gather your thoughts into a disciplined clear concise post.

Druid chucking insults at him just makes him think he is right and we have no answer for him. And I find it just as boring as ASM's rambling screeds.

ASM the flaw in your argument is in this statement

quote:
Armed with Russian reports on US troop strength and movements, and an "unlimited" supply of Communist-made weapons.
Yes they were armed by the Russia (or maybe China I think Ho Chi Minh was more aligned with Mao than Russia), but it was not an expensive exercise, as they were a low tech guerilla army, some AK47s and a few rounds was all a Viet Cong fighter needed, and they did not need Russian info on US troop strengths as they had better and more accurate information from their allies and supporters in the local population, the numbers of which increased with every year, as resentment about the US presence there increased. If I remember correctly I think they described themselves as being like fishes swimming in the sea of the local population. In Iraq the same thing is happening, in the heady days just after the invasion the British and US were greeted as liberators, but that time has passed and the resentment of the troops as a foreign army occupation can only grow and grow. Likewise the "insurgents" do not need funding by a superpower to carry on their campaign. Iran, Syria and others can fund their operations indefinitely without breaking into a sweat. Even the US does not have a big enough military to invade those countries as well so since you won't negotiate with evil, you are stuck there too.

quote:
Generally speaking ... you're wrong (and completely wrong under "scorched-earth" rules).
Er no. I'm right, that was precisely the lesson of Vietnam which you have chosen to forget, and the US did scorch a lot of earth there too. Predictably it only turned the remaining local population more firmly against them making things easier for the Viet Cong.

Lastly your comparison with the Balkans holds no water as it was not a guerilla war, in the sense that Vietnam was and Iraq is now. Try and name me any conflict between a guerilla force and a conventional army where the conventional army prevailed. Difficult isn't it?

If you ASM can outline a strategy that you think can turn around the Iraq war, I'd be delighted, as I don't want the US to lose this. If there was a way that Iraq could get a stable strong government with some vestige of democratic legitimacy, and its vast oil wealth could at last be put to use in rebuilding the country I would be delighted. The idea behind this war was a noble one, that the US should use the limited time it has as the unchallenged global superpower to spread democracy and freedom. If there is any way to get this noble ideal back on track, I and all those who opposed this from the start will be pleased to eat our hats. But it's not going to happen, except in fairyland.

--------------------
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Posts: 2922 | From: Brighton - UK | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Colonel Panic
BlabberMouth, the Next Generation
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Icon 1 posted August 26, 2007 10:54      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Republican Senator John Warner wants troops to start coming home by Christmas. If not, he is talking seriously about supporting Democratic proposals for withdrawal.

Who is this new (as the pro-war crowd would label him) “cut-and-run coward”?

Check out Senator Warner’s credentials:

Combat tours in two wars.

Under Secretary and Secretary of the Navy during the Viet Nam War.

Former Republican Chairman of the Senate Armed Services committee.

Don’t take my word for it; here’s the link:

http://www.senate.gov/~warner/about/aboutthesenator.htm

I think this discussion is over.

I’m going to go find more common ground with Steen.

http://www.geekculture.com/ultimatebb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000180;p=1#000006

Colonel Panic

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Free! Free at last!

Posts: 1809 | From: Glacier Melt, USA | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
SuperBlabberMouth!
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Icon 1 posted August 26, 2007 13:56      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Part I: Superior Firepower Wins
quote:
August 25, 2007 15:57
Try and name me any conflict between a guerilla force and a conventional army where the conventional army prevailed. Difficult isn't it?

#include <sarcasm.h>
Wow ... I WAS going to say Indians of North America. But they were BEGGING to be killed. They'd dance around say "SHOOT ME! SHOOT ME!" They COULD HAVE STOPPED GATLING-GUNS with bows and arrows ... but no, they wanted to die.

I'll be honest, I once stopped an Abrams Tank by sticking a Banana in its tail-pipe, sure it was a joke, but if anyone found out back then I would have lost all my rank and got 3 years extra duty.
</sarcasm>

Only fools and lunatics fight without weapons against a heavily armed enemy that kills without mercy. (FYI: That's how totalitarian states remain in power.) Imperialism "worked" (centuries ago) because superior firepower prevailed. Slavery "worked" because slaves had two choices: (1) work and live, or (2) revolt without weapons and die.

The Vietcong made it clear to "the (unarmed) people": "Resist us and you will die." (In modern terms, you could try to resist a Mafia thug, by dialing 9-1-1 on your cell phone, and take the robber's picture with the cell phone -- dying in the process, or you could "cooperate" with the thug.)
 

Part II: What Better Reason to "Fight Back" than Genocide
quote:
Predictably it only turned the remaining local population more firmly against them ....
In "every" case of "genocide," the victims did not have the weapons to defend themselves. If they did, it would have been called "Civil War" instead of "Genocide."

Cause and Effect: No weapons -- No "fighting back."     Lots of weapons -- lots of fighting.
 

Part III: It's About the Supply of Weapons
quote:
Likewise the "insurgents" do not need funding by a superpower to carry on their campaign. Iran, Syria and others can fund their operations indefinitely without breaking into a sweat.
DUH!!!! My point was: As long as a foreign supply of "unlimited" weapons keeps coming, "insurgents" can keep fighting.
 

Part IV: Vietnam
quote:
from Wikipedia:
January 30, 1968: The Viet Cong (VC) and North Vietnamese Army (NVA) struck nearly simultaneously, during the most sacred Vietnamese holiday while many Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) troops were on leave. Initially the attacks took the South Vietnamese and Americans by surprise, .... It is widely seen as a turning point in the war, but although it was a military defeat for the Communists, media reports were misleading in America, where televised war footage showed the Americans retreating through the grounds of the US embassy in Saigon ....

The US could defeat "Communist" forces, but the "real" problem was that Communists were allowed to send "unlimited" amounts of weapons. Result: The war could "never" end.
 
quote:
They did not need Russian info on US troop strengths as they had better and more accurate information from their allies and supporters in the local population.
Ever hear about Vietcong camps disappearing just before massive bombing strikes? "Local supporters" could never learn details about the time, location, and magnitude of American bombing missions. When reconnaissance missions spot enemy troop concentrations, (usually) the local people are not told.
 

Part V: There Are No "Acceptable" Solutions
quote:
August 25, 2007 15:57
If you ... can outline a strategy that you think can turn around ....

from Syriana (movie, 2005)
"You know what the business community thinks of you? They think that a hundred years ago you were living in tents out here in the desert chopping each other's heads off and that's where you'll be in another hundred years, so on behalf of my firm I accept your offer."

Based on the past 40 years (my approximate age) of the regional (Mideast) social and political conditions, and the external (non-Mideast) political and economic conditions:

        Peace can "never" exist.

Those who "want peace" are outnumbered 10-to-1 (made-up ratio)
    (FYI: Totalitarian states are not peaceful.)

On the "local" level you have:
  • "Revenge killing," which also prevents political cooperation between different local groups. This behavior is Anarchy.
     
  • Absence of cooperation means the only functional government is a totalitarian state.
     
  • If the totalitarian state is a dictatorship, the "unexpected" risk is death of the leader, resulting in a violent power struggle and civil war (see Yugoslavia/"Tito").
     
  • If the totalitarian state is a theocracy, the government refuses to abide by international law, because international law subordinates and openly conflicts with "divine" law. (Not acceptable for world peace)
 
Externally you have:
  • Foreign groups (socially) similar to "locals" that will not accept "subjugation" of their allies. The foreign goups supply weapons to assure their allies' victory. (To quote someone: "Iran, Syria and others can fund their operations indefinitely without breaking into a sweat.")
     
  • Foreign nations (Russia, China) that supply weapons to "locals" in exchange for oil, or oil money, with the side benefit that the weapons will be used against an enemy (the US).
     
  • The apathy of a world organization (the United Nations) which operates on the "what's-in-it-for-me?" policy.

    Did they figure out that a Communist party in a small country, supported with massive weapon supplies from a large Communist country, might slaughter hundreds of thousands of innocent people? Have they figured out that Darfur is genocide? Have they figured out organizations that would suicide bomb three weddings (in Jordan) are internationally (and completely) criminal, and no country should be allowed to give them sanctuary without facing punitive action? (Assuming anyone will be left to write about it, "final" UN failure will make the League of Nations look like a resounding success.)


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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted August 26, 2007 14:26      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Seepy quotes the leftist media, so I thought it only fair to bring in something from those who are right about Vietnam.

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Posts: 3752 | From: Pluto, no matter what you call it, is still my home. | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
SuperBlabberMouth!
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Icon 1 posted August 26, 2007 14:49      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM:

Based on the past 40 years (my approximate age) of the regional (Mideast) social and political conditions, and the external (non-Mideast) political and economic conditions:

      Peace can "never" exist.

To clarify that statement: Until certain conditions change, there will not be peace.

(Note:The US could completely vanish from the earth, and the conditions that were listed would still continue.)

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
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Icon 1 posted August 26, 2007 17:42      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
Seepy quotes the leftist media, so I thought it only fair to bring in something from those who are right about Vietnam.

Hmmm... Our valiant soldiers were not defeated on the battlefield, they were betrayed by cowards and traitors at home.

Where have I heard that before?

Oh yes, Mein Kampf.

And we all know how well that bit of self-delusion turned out...

Oh, did I just mention Hitler ?

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10668 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Callipygous
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
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Icon 1 posted August 26, 2007 17:46      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
Seepy quotes the leftist media, so I thought it only fair to bring in something from those who are right about Vietnam.

gg I hope you don't actually take what he says seriously? That is beyond parody. Quite bonkers.

ASM edit your post from a rant down to a concisely expressed argument if you want a proper response. You seem to have some trouble understanding what guerilla warfare is. Here is the Wikipedia entry, which you will be pleased to note argues quite convincingly against one of my points, in that it gives a substantial list of failed guerilla campaigns!

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

Posts: 2922 | From: Brighton - UK | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged


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