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Author Topic: CCTV / The nanny state UK
londonmacgeek
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Icon 1 posted August 06, 2007 18:49      Profile for londonmacgeek     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Recently, there has been much press regarding our over use of CCTV here in the UK. It has come to pass that Britain is the most spied upon society in the EU, it is possible to be watched travelling from London to Manchester on CCTV cameras, and never enter a blind spot. Following this, fears of an Orwellian 'Nanny State' have emerged amongst the public. Our government seems to really like telling us how to exist, television commercials constantly remind us that the health department recommends eating five portions of fruit and vegetable a day (I think this is good advice personally, but I'm not sure I like being told so by Gordon Brown)
Another issue of contraversy is the Smoking ban that has been passed in England, which prohibits smoking in any public space (I personally do not smoke, so this does not affect me) and there have been complaints that this is a violation of our civil liberties.
What are your oppinions on the 'Nanny State UK'?

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Icon 1 posted August 07, 2007 06:23      Profile for business attire     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It sounds like you're turning into us.

Our televisions tell us to eat 2 servings of fruit and 3 servings of vegetables every day. And a lot of public places are smoking prohibited too. Mainly in California and New York I think.

The CCTV thing is definitely weird. And I don't think any American would stand for it. But the rest of it? I don't think its a big deal.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted August 07, 2007 06:59      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
business attire wrote:
The CCTV thing is definitely weird. And I don't think any American would stand for it.

So.... you're saying we shouldn't have installed those pinhole cameras in your bathroom?

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Icon 1 posted August 07, 2007 07:03      Profile for business attire     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
yes. That is exactly what I am saying.
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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted August 07, 2007 07:39      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
We are not talking about a CCTV camera behind a two way mirror in your bedroom. What would you do in front of a CCTV camera that you don't want people to see. These cameras are in public places.

I am not using the "if you don't have anythiong to hide what are you afraid about" argument here.

I am using the "you're in a goddamn public place for crying out load, how much privacy do you expect?" argument.

And if my goverment does place a camera in my living room, I'll just start to walk around naked. It won't be too long before they turn the camera off.

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted August 07, 2007 08:29      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
And if my goverment does place a camera in my living room, I'll just start to walk around naked. It won't be too long before they turn the camera off.

Bwahahaha. Same here. I used that very same tactic last month with the domestic spies in my apartments.

There are lost of places that have begun to use video surveillance. Currently I see them at traffic lights and places of that type. So it will not be a huge leap before they begin to do that in other public places.

I really don't care for it at all. But I will bet my last dollar that no one will raise much of a stink over it. Sure there will be some griping, but not enough to change anything. Soon people, very soon.

So who will be your brother's keeper? And who will watch those that watch?

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 7 posted August 07, 2007 09:00      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
business attire wrote:
yes. That is exactly what I am saying.

Party pooper [Razz]

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Ugh, MightyClub
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Icon 1 posted August 07, 2007 09:44      Profile for Ugh, MightyClub     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
business attire wrote:
yes. That is exactly what I am saying.

Party pooper [Razz]

Well, if that's what turns you on...

The problem with CCTV in public places is that it's a slippery slope. "Who cares, it's a public place", we say. "There is no privacy anyway." So we get desensitized to the cameras on the corners. Then more cameras show up. And we get desensitized again. And again. And again. Where does it end? This is why we have to draw a line, stand up and say, "Absolutely not!"

Another double-edged sword is that cameras remember everything they see. And then someone views the video and misinterperates what they see. I mean, come on, what spungo was doing with that sheep in the bus terminal was entirely innocent!

Sorry, that's the best I can do for a lunchtime argument.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted August 07, 2007 12:17      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Eh... I'd probably get a bigger thrill out of watching a fully clothed BA typing away at her computer or playing a video game.

I'm funny that way.

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Icon 1 posted August 07, 2007 12:49      Profile for business attire     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
as long as I was doing something with my hands...
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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted August 07, 2007 13:24      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
*adjusts his halo*

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted August 07, 2007 16:01      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by business attire:
as long as I was doing something with my hands...

/me remembers an old GC thread...I don't think that'd be necessary, actually. [Razz]

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Serenak

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Icon 1 posted August 07, 2007 18:19      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
here in the UK we are spied on and listened to and generally bullied by a nanny state in a way that actually makes Orwell's 1984 look positively like a walk in the park... ok so they are not quite watching us through our TVs yet (as far as I can tell...) but i is not far off..

Like from now on I have to get documentation to prove to my child's Headmaster (principal) that I should have "special dispensation" to take my holidays outside the "approved" times...

I was sorry to say I lived under the sad misconception I lived in a free country... fsck knows why... I have known for many years that the Orwellian nightmare was nowhere near the far worse truth.. and so did he...

They can watch me all they like and they can take away my right to choose my holidays... to smoke and drink alcohol but at least atm they leave my thoughts alone... or maybe not

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted August 07, 2007 18:34      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
dragonman97:
I don't think that'd be necessary, actually. [Razz]

Well, if I'm going to stare at her, she might as well not be bored so it's necessary. Tooooootally necessary. [Smile]

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted August 08, 2007 00:13      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Serenak:
here in the UK we are spied on and listened to and generally bullied by a nanny state in a way that actually makes Orwell's 1984 look positively like a walk in the park... ok so they are not quite watching us through our TVs yet (as far as I can tell...) but i is not far off..

Like from now on I have to get documentation to prove to my child's Headmaster (principal) that I should have "special dispensation" to take my holidays outside the "approved" times...


1st

Why is it when everyone references a 1984 state is it about the goverment spying on people. Yes big brother spied on people but that was the least of the problems of the citizens of 1984. Big brother would torture it's citizens until they loved big brother. They would dictate who could mate with who. Big Brother restricted language. Why is Big Brother always seen as the goverment that spied, and not as the government that torured? The next " big brother program on the TV should be a house where all the widely differing personalities are torured until they are all they same. That would be a Big Brother house.


2nd

I agree with you about the vacation (holiday) having to be approved by the principle(headmaster, unless you vacation at disney world.

sorry about the lenght

post scriptum

I know why people see big brother as the government that spied. It is because they have never read the book.

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted August 08, 2007 05:03      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Serenak, Do you mean to say you ask for permission during the summer or during the school year? Getting permission during the school year to pull your child out of school for a family vacation is totally de rigeur. Depending on what's going on in school (testing that can't be made up, etc.), missing school may not be in the student's best interest.

My school allowed students to be pulled out, but only for educational trips. We had to submit projects after we returned that showed what we learned on vacation. We were also required to turn in the same homework our classmates completed while we were away so that we wouldn't fall behind.

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supaboy
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Icon 1 posted August 08, 2007 05:35      Profile for supaboy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
business attire wrote:
The CCTV thing is definitely weird. And I don't think any American would stand for it.

So.... you're saying we shouldn't have installed those pinhole cameras in your bathroom?

If there's a hidden camera in a woman's bathroom, there's a good chance she's not standing for it.
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business attire
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Icon 1 posted August 08, 2007 05:48      Profile for business attire     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by supaboy:
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
business attire wrote:
The CCTV thing is definitely weird. And I don't think any American would stand for it.

So.... you're saying we shouldn't have installed those pinhole cameras in your bathroom?

If there's a hidden camera in a woman's bathroom, there's a good chance she's not standing for it.
hahaha! It's funny because women sit down when they pee!
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Icon 1 posted August 08, 2007 09:49      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
Why is it when everyone references a 1984 state is it about the goverment spying on people. Yes big brother spied on people but that was the least of the problems of the citizens of 1984. Big brother would torture it's citizens until they loved big brother. They would dictate who could mate with who. Big Brother restricted language. Why is Big Brother always seen as the goverment that spied, and not as the government that torured? The next " big brother program on the TV should be a house where all the widely differing personalities are torured until they are all they same. That would be a Big Brother house.

I know why people see big brother as the government that spied. It is because they have never read the book.

Or perhaps they are just thinking of the most famous line in the book: "Big Brother is watching you".

Besides, torture is not the primary method of control used in the book. It's a back-up method of enforcing compliance when propaganda and intimidation have failed to produce the desired results.

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Icon 1 posted August 09, 2007 03:28      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by londonmacgeek:
Our government seems to really like telling us how to exist, television commercials constantly remind us that the health department recommends eating five portions of fruit and vegetable a day (I think this is good advice personally, but I'm not sure I like being told so by Gordon Brown)

I don't think advertising it counts as nanny-state. It would be nanny-state if they started mandating veggie consumption.

quote:
Originally posted by londonmacgeek:
Another issue of contraversy is the Smoking ban that has been passed in England, which prohibits smoking in any public space (I personally do not smoke, so this does not affect me) and there have been complaints that this is a violation of our civil liberties.

Also not nanny-state, no matter what smokers think. What about the "civil liberty" of non-smokers not to breath second hand smoke? That trumps the right of someone to have a drug habit. (I used to smoke, btw, so I'm fully aquainted with the peculiar selfishness of the smoker that assumes that the desire to have a cigarette is somehow on par with the desire of other people not to.)

Neither of those two examples support your argument.

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londonmacgeek
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Icon 1 posted August 09, 2007 17:07      Profile for londonmacgeek     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I must agree with you, I find having to inhale hydrogen cyanide when waiting for a train an un-pallatable experience. I was mearley trying to stir oppinion.
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maximile

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Icon 1 posted August 10, 2007 12:38      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think there should be as many cameras in public as the government feels necessary. I also think that they should work hard to make the feed from the cameras public.

I don't know why, really. But Penn Jillette says so, and I think he's awesome in every way, so I do too.

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Serenak

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Icon 1 posted August 10, 2007 17:44      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think we should all start memorising our favourite books - because when the govt's start burning them a-la Farenheit 451 some people are gonna be very sorry they laughed...

To paraphrase a well know quote... "when they came for the Jews I did nothing, for I am not Jewish, when they came for the "persons of colour" I did nothing, for I am not "of colour", when they came for the intellectuals I did nothing... for I am no intellectual, and now they have come for me and my books and my computer... and who will speak for me and my freedoms? NO ONE - because no one is left to do it...."

Paranoid... maybe - but they watch me on the streets, they monitor my every financial transaction, they are training our children to "rat us out" in a "Cultural Revolution" style for smoking or drinking or eating red meat or not taking 5 portions of fruit and veg a day...

I would rather be paranoid than "sorry after the fact"

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted August 10, 2007 20:26      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well said bro.

I am paraphrasing here. But I recently saw a quote from Lenny Bruce that went something to the effect of...

If you can't say "fuck", you can't say "fuck the government."

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 10, 2007 20:50      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Serenak:
I would rather be paranoid than "sorry after the fact"

Your seditious comments have been noted.

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