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Author Topic: Politics and religion take the back seat
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2007 14:47      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think I found an issue that may prove more inflammatory than politics and religion:

Let the arguing commence

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2007 15:00      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I expect this is what we will eventually see out of this. [Big Grin]

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2007 15:29      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If either party says stop, then the other party is obliged to stop regardless. At no point should anypersons freedom of choice be annulled. (With the exception of the woman saying stop mid ejaculation.) The problem I have with these laws is the term rape. If two people have started intercourse and one party says atop and the other perty does not, the party that did not stop should be charged with a crime, but not rape.

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 2 posted February 06, 2007 16:34      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Women have always maintained the right to cry "Rape!" up to a week after consensual sex.

Haven't any of you been following the Duke Lacrosse player case? Don't any of you see what's on Lifetime channel?

Shoot, sex doesn't even have to occur for a woman to ruin a man's life.

Nothing to see here.

Gotta go, hot, sex-crazed astronaut women are back on TV!

Colonel Panic

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catgoddess
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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 11:15      Profile for catgoddess     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I find the fact that this topic hasn't been taken seriously by a couple of the male responders appalling. Opinions are so jaded by a couple of obscure, high-profile news stories that the real victims of rape are rarely heard.

If any person says "no" or "stop" or anything else that warrants the other to cease the act... then it means "no" and "stop."

These aren't the pleas of some actress on Lifetime TV or a booty call with dollar signs in her eyes for some over-paid sports professional; these are the unheard pleas of your daughter laying underneath some guy she just met and realized things had gone too far; these are the pleas of your best friend who isn't as ready as she thought she was; these are the pleas of a woman who wanted sex, but refuses after it is apparent that no one has a condom.

Look around you. One in six women, has been sexually assaulted. That fact is based only on reported assaults. Is the rate really falling or is the rate of reporting falling?

There are some things in life that transcend humor and require actual thought. Imagine six women you care for the most in your life (daughters, sisters, mothers, wives, girlfriends, best friends, etc). At least one of them has been a victim of sexual assault. Imagine that woman struggling and begging the man to stop. The man could be a stranger, a boyfriend, a roommate... anyone. But there she is wanting it to stop and he doesn't.

I can't imagine what would ever possibly be funny or joke-worthy about that.

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maximile

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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 13:13      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by catgoddess:
I find the fact that this topic hasn't been taken seriously by a couple of the male responders appalling.

...

There are some things in life that transcend humor and require actual thought. Imagine six women you care for the most in your life (daughters, sisters, mothers, wives, girlfriends, best friends, etc). At least one of them has been a victim of sexual assault. Imagine that woman struggling and begging the man to stop. The man could be a stranger, a boyfriend, a roommate... anyone. But there she is wanting it to stop and he doesn't.

I can't imagine what would ever possibly be funny or joke-worthy about that.

Of course rape is abhorrent. But it's the people that are able to make light of it that can have a sensible, constructive conversation about it. People that associate the issue with loved ones and emotions incite a lot of hysteria that clouds the matter and makes it very difficult to deal with.

It's happened with sexism, racism, homophobia... as soon as people are comfortable enough to joke about it, that's when you start to make real progress. Which is why self-deprecation in comedy is so important, and why it's good to see posts joking about rape.

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ARJ
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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 13:55      Profile for ARJ   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by maximile:
Of course rape is abhorrent. But it's the people that are able to make light of it that can have a sensible, constructive conversation about it. People that associate the issue with loved ones and emotions incite a lot of hysteria that clouds the matter and makes it very difficult to deal with.

It's happened with sexism, racism, homophobia... as soon as people are comfortable enough to joke about it, that's when you start to make real progress. Which is why self-deprecation in comedy is so important, and why it's good to see posts joking about rape.

Nice work putting Catgoddess in her place! It is a classic misogynistic tactic to ascribe hysteria to women and then be able to discount their arguments. I call rubbish on this line of reasoning.

Are you misogynistic? I don't know, but your argument sounds very much so like the posters who try to shut up people like http://www.feministe.us/

To say that anyone with an emotional involvement on an issue can't argue is ridiculous-- if they have no emotional involvement, why debate? Why would you care about your side of the argument at all? An argument without emotions just devolves into an intellectual wankfest.

Being able to laugh at a serious situation is a valid way to deal with disturbing issues. But Catgoddess's point was that you can't just laugh off rape as only the media-circus cases. One thing she didn't explicitly state: most rape victims are attacked by someone they know, trust, or even love. If we are going to make jokes about rape, let's at least reflect reality. How about some jokes about a guy raping his girlfriend? Statistically speaking, that's what is happening to those 1 in 6 women.

(How was that? Did I help keep the arguing going good, huh? Are we on page 6 yet? [Wink] )

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 14:07      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by catgoddess:
I find the fact that this topic hasn't been taken seriously by a couple of the male responders appalling. Opinions are so jaded by a couple of obscure, high-profile news stories that the real victims of rape are rarely heard.

If any person says "no" or "stop" or anything else that warrants the other to cease the act... then it means "no" and "stop."

These aren't the pleas of some actress on Lifetime TV or a booty call with dollar signs in her eyes for some over-paid sports professional; these are the unheard pleas of your daughter laying underneath some guy she just met and realized things had gone too far; these are the pleas of your best friend who isn't as ready as she thought she was; these are the pleas of a woman who wanted sex, but refuses after it is apparent that no one has a condom.

Look around you. One in six women, has been sexually assaulted. That fact is based only on reported assaults. Is the rate really falling or is the rate of reporting falling?

There are some things in life that transcend humor and require actual thought. Imagine six women you care for the most in your life (daughters, sisters, mothers, wives, girlfriends, best friends, etc). At least one of them has been a victim of sexual assault. Imagine that woman struggling and begging the man to stop. The man could be a stranger, a boyfriend, a roommate... anyone. But there she is wanting it to stop and he doesn't.

I can't imagine what would ever possibly be funny or joke-worthy about that.

Ok, the first thing you should know is that my wife is a rape victim. It happened a long time ago before I even knew her. I take rape very seriously.

I also happen to be one of those rare people these days who did not have sex before marriage. I have too much respect for the female gender to have given that much of myself unless I am totally committed to that person.

The article to me represents the level of insanity that our society has reached. My wife read the article and laughed at it. She said "They should not have started something they were not willing to finish". Remember this is coming from a rape victim.

I give women the benefit of the doubt that they are intelligent enough to not have sex with someone they just met and if they want to have sex that they should make sure the guy is clean of STD's and keep condoms in her purse and tell the guy ahead of time that he puts it on if he wants any action.

Like anything else in life, planning is important. Maybe I am being naive about this but it's common sense when going scuba diving that you wear a wetsuit. People should be prepared before having sex. If a woman does not know a guy well enough that she does not know he won't stop when she says stop then she should not be putting herself in that position. There is nothing to lose by waiting to have sex.

Reread the article. It even mentions a "sexual consent contract". When the world becomes absurd, the only logical response is absurdity.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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maximile

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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 15:09      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ARJ:
... It is a classic misogynistic tactic to ascribe hysteria to women and then be able to discount their arguments. I call rubbish on this line of reasoning.

Are you misogynistic? I don't know, but your argument sounds very much so like the posters who try to shut up people like http://www.feministe.us/

I'm not. I've used this argument before, on men and women. Probably in the forums, and certainly on #joyoftech. It's just one of those rare "political" topics about which I care a lot.

quote:

To say that anyone with an emotional involvement on an issue can't argue is ridiculous-- if they have no emotional involvement, why debate? Why would you care about your side of the argument at all? An argument without emotions just devolves into an intellectual wankfest.

I'm not saying that people who have relevant emotions are ineligible to debate a matter. Perhaps "associate" was the wrong word; my problem is with people who introduce such personal matters as a weapon in an argument because that starts to steer it towards becoming "If you disagree with me, you're not acknowledging these people's suffering."

But regardless, even if someone has no experience with rape, their morals combined with their intellect entitle them to argue about it.

quote:
Being able to laugh at a serious situation is a valid way to deal with disturbing issues.

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing here. I get the feeling that you're referring to helping an individual deal with it. I'm talking about society dealing with it; I'm saying that we're going to make little progress against rape until the majority can laugh at rape jokes.

quote:
But Catgoddess's point was that you can't just laugh off rape as only the media-circus cases.

Which is certainly a valid point, and one which perhaps had more importance in her post than I noticed. Perhaps because she then told me to imagine women I cared for getting raped, which kinda obscured anything else. But my post was mainly in response to her finding a couple of the previous posts "appalling".

quote:
One thing she didn't explicitly state: most rape victims are attacked by someone they know, trust, or even love. If we are going to make jokes about rape, let's at least reflect reality. How about some jokes about a guy raping his girlfriend? Statistically speaking, that's what is happening to those 1 in 6 women.

Is your point that there's something hypocritical about joking about the things we're comfortable with, but not about the things we're not? If so, I'd probably agree. But it's starting to move in that direction, and I think we'll see more jokes like that in the future as we start to deal with it. And I look forward to that time.

If anyone's still reading by this point, I should clarify a few things: I don't really like rape jokes. And there are lots of people who find rape jokes funny because they like rape, or they hate women, and I certainly don't like that way of thinking. But you're starting to see intelligent, forward-thinking people making jokes about the issue, and people are starting to laugh for the right reasons. And that makes me very hopeful for any progress that might be made in the future against rape, and against situations like the one in the video CrawGator linked to.

quote:
(How was that? Did I help keep the arguing going good, huh? Are we on page 6 yet? [Wink] )

It's certainly a good start... [Smile]
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Serenak

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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 16:37      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
To quote a very old joke... "a woman with her skirt up can run a lot faster than a guy with his trousers around his ankles..."

Does that make light of rape? Is it funny because it makes a stupid comment about rape? Or is it just funny for the ludicrous seaside postcard/Benny Hill image it conjures up for most who hear it?

I don't think anyone here takes rape lightly - and most of us are fully aware that most women are not raped by masked night stalking psychos but by friends, family members, neighbours or work colleagues - people they know and in whom they have a certain amount of trust.

I don't believe anyone made an "offensive" post - humour is a strange thing - it can be used to belittle something by making it seem absurd, or it can be used by many to "take the edge off" something they find uncomfortable to confront.

I am not sure I agree with Maximile's argument that more mainstream jokes about something are a good thing - I remember when casual rascism and homophobia were far more the norm than now (at least in the UK), and at that time jokes that would now be considered "distasteful" were common currency even amongst mainstream comedians and on TV sitcoms.

In these hopefully more enlightened times (at least here in the UK) those sort of "jokes" are not common, though we have rather weird sort of inversion tradition in comedy that it is OK for comics to make fun of a group to which they (or their stage persona) obviously belongs - Eddie Murphy can make jokes about black people that no white comedian would go near, Julian Clary and Graham Norton make their careers out out the strange English pantomime effect of being very camp and making a large amount of capital from innuendo and jokes about gays that no "straight" comic could etc.

Back on topic I think the main point is not really that anyone here disagrees that No and Stop mean exactly that and that should be an end to it but about how far (in an absurdist manner) one might have to go to be sure that you actually "have consent" to do anything...

In a perfect world this whole discussion would be an absurd joke, unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world.

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 16:56      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I find the fact that this topic hasn't been taken seriously by a couple of the male responders appalling. Opinions are so jaded by a couple of obscure, high-profile news stories that the real victims of rape are rarely heard.
CP is always an insensitive clod, you in sensitive clod. And while crawgator's link may have been in jest, I think the ideas behind it aren't. Wasn't there a push a few years ago for verbal consent had to be given before each stage -- read, having to stop and ask "May I kiss you?" and while kissing stopping to ask "May I french kiss you?"... Wouldn't such a system be overkill?

And while rape is a horrible crime, there is a serious threat to a man if a women claims he raped her even if he didn't. The charge of rape never goes away, even if it is proven false in a court of law. Sexual Assult and rape are "Think of the children" issues that have the power to move legislators, the media and society to pass judement and invade peoples privacy at just the claim.

quote:
If any person says "no" or "stop" or anything else that warrants the other to cease the act... then it means "no" and "stop."
Yes... well, unless there is an agreed upon saftey word so that both parties can use the words "no" and "stop" and still be consenting...

quote:
These aren't the pleas of some actress on Lifetime TV or a booty call with dollar signs in her eyes for some over-paid sports professional;
But it is that too. Respectable men who haven't so much as hurt a fly have been accused of rape. Accusations of rape ruin the mans life instantly, and there is no recourse that will fully restore the man's reputation.

quote:
these are the unheard pleas of your daughter
Or son. But, we don't want to talk about the fact that there is more stigma about a man being raped by a women and a very small precentage of male rape victums come forward. Society tells us that a man can't be raped by woman, and female on male rape was long thought to be non-exsistant.

quote:
laying underneath some guy she just met and realized things had gone too far; these are the pleas of your best friend who isn't as ready as she thought she was; these are the pleas of a woman who wanted sex, but refuses after it is apparent that no one has a condom.
Again, the above can just as likely apply to males.

quote:
Look around you. One in six women, has been sexually assaulted.
I respect that it is a problem, and that it is large one. But, 1 in 6 doesn't seem reasonalbe to me... "One in six American women are victims of sexual assault, and one in 33 men." is the line you are quoting... but it doesn't mention if this is only the reported as you claim or the estimated which is by it's nature off. Moreover, it doesn't tell us if this is based on the number of people who filed claims, some survey or number of convictions. The article mentions a few serveys, but doesn't tell us which this datum was from. Statics like this from serveys are meaningless without knowing:
- who paid for the study, and what their interests are.
- how the questions were asked, and set up.
- sample size, and standard deviation.

quote:
That fact is based only on reported assaults.
Sorry, it doesn't say that at all.

quote:
Is the rate really falling or is the rate of reporting falling?
Oh, this part of the page you question... I, from looking at society, have no doubt that higher percentages of people are comming forward. We're no longer afraid to talk about sex, and we now don't treat the victims like they are to blame.

quote:
There are some things in life that transcend humor
No, there aren't. Free speech is what lets people who have assulted come forward and bring take the stigma away from reporting sexual assult, and it is that freedom that allows people to joke about it also. I may not agree jokes about rape or dead babies, but I will defend to the death the right of people to make them.

quote:
and require actual thought.
Who says that they are mutally exclusive?

quote:
Imagine six women you care for the most in your life (daughters, sisters, mothers, wives, girlfriends, best friends, etc). At least one of them has been a victim of sexual assault.
False. Simply false. Even neglecting the arguement that the 1 in 6 is inflated, it is quite possible and even a little likely that grabbing 6 at random may not contain a sexual assult victim... Especially, based on location and statics for the area you live instead of the national averages.

quote:
Imagine that woman struggling and begging the man to stop. The man could be a stranger, a boyfriend, a roommate... anyone. But there she is wanting it to stop and he doesn't.

I can't imagine what would ever possibly be funny or joke-worthy about that.

Imagine a world where anything that anyone thought was a sacred issue couldn't be joked about. Imagine a world where there were words you simply couldn't use because they are "too vile" or "evil" or "profane". I think putting up with inapporprate speech is well worth the ability to speak out about govrnment policy you disagree with, and speaking up about issue (like rape) that are very serious to society.

While I doubt the numbers in the page you posted, I don't doubt the seriousness of the issue. It's a horrible thing, and given the seriousness of the issue ought to bring freedom of discussion. CG's and CP's posts brought up other issues that is tied in with the issue. Though the posts may have been in jest, it doesn't invalidate their points. The key to solving this problem isn't in squashing things you find inapproprate in the converstation, but having the converstation. Talking about important issues like this one increases awareness of current thoughts, problems and fears associated with the topic at hand.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 17:52      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
maximile wrote:
It's happened with sexism, racism, homophobia... as soon as people are comfortable enough to joke about it, that's when you start to make real progress.\

As I recall from history class, it was freeing the slaves and a civil war that started us on the path to real progress against racism. Not a bunch of white actors in blackface singing "Mammy".

While we're at it, it will apparently come as a surprise to you to find out that Susan B. Anthony and most other women who were pivotal to women's rights were not a stand up comics.

In fact, I'd like you to point out one example of a comic who made a difference with any of those things.

What value there is in humor is that it can allow you to address an uncomfortable issue without it being so uncomfortable that it stops the conversation as soon as it comes up. It should still be uncomfortable and make you think. When you become comfortable with what should not be a comfortable subject, you've stopped thinking about it and accepted it as normal. If we, as a society, ever accept rape, racism, sexism and homophobia as comfortable, normal subjects, I think we'll have reached the point where it would be better to euthanize our society for the good of humanity.


CrawGator wrote:
The article to me represents the level of insanity that our society has reached. My wife read the article and laughed at it. She said "They should not have started something they were not willing to finish". Remember this is coming from a rape victim.

To a limited extent, I can agree that the that article shows the level of insanity that our society has reached, but I would have to question your wife's statement. The problem with her argument and the laws the article discusses, is one of context. To use an over-the-top example, there is a world of difference between a woman changing her mind if the plain missionary style sex gets boring and a woman changing her mind if the guy starts slapping her around and choking her when she's not into that sort of thing.

These things need to be looked at on a case-by-case basis and not simply relegated to a law that says "if it takes more than 5 seconds to stop after she says no, it's rape." Laws that are written too explicitly always wind up letting some guilty people go free and convicting some innocent people on technicalities.

If a woman does not know a guy well enough that she does not know he won't stop when she says stop then she should not be putting herself in that position.

It's an unfair comparison, but Jeffrey Dahmer's neighbors said "He was shy, a little withdrawn. But not real bizarre," and "he never bothered anyone." You can't always tell who the bad guys are in real life.

Reread the article. It even mentions a "sexual consent contract".

That particular bit is courtesy of The National Center for Men. You'd have to look at their website to understand just how little regard you should pay to anything they say. The reporter either didn't check them out before quoting them or was more interested in a controversial point of view than in a intelligent one.

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 18:21      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
CP is always an insensitive clod

And how is Mrs. Pleasant today, Gamemaster?

I have to admit incredible exhaustion at the times I feel a desire to be sensitive or uncloddish, but nevertheless I press on.

CP

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 18:29      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'll coat coach Green on this one. This speech was given to us the first day of doubles (I'm no longer a football player).

"Men, we need to lay down some rules. I want you to be the nicest gentlmen that ever existed outside the football field, but I want you to be mean sonsabitches on the field. I want you to be competitors.

You know what a competitor is? A guy who can take first AND third in a jacking-off competition.

On that same note, you can't be a competitor if you can't play. You can't play if you get in trouble. So I want you to remember these rules:

1.) Go to class. Sit in the front row. Get straight A's. I'll know if you don't.

2.) Don't get caught drinking.

3.) and lastly, regarding women. Boys, no means no. No means no! No means no means no means no! Got it? No means no.

Maybe means no. Maybe means no. Maybe means no means no means no.

Yes most probably means no. You can never be too sure, so just back out, men. Now get ready to do some hittin' practice.
"

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 18:37      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
In fact, I'd like you to point out one example of a comic who made a difference with any of those things.

Samuel Clemens

ďHe was thinking about his wife and his children, away up yonder, and he was low and homesick; because he hadnít ever been away from home before in his life; and I do believe that he cared just as much for his people as white folks does theirín. It donít seem natural, but I reckon itís so.Ē

From Huckleberry Finn

I understand that this might not acheive the level of sophistication for you, Steen, that "Smokey and the Bandit Part III" holds for you (See http://www.geekculture.com/ultimatebb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=002613) but otherwise it is considered humorous literature that did affect social views. Believe me, having lived in the south, I realize how difficult it is for somebody in the south to understand the concept of literacy. But I haven't given up hope on you.

Colonel Panic

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catgoddess
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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 18:46      Profile for catgoddess     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'll gladly take the fall for being this or that if it gets people talking about the real issues here (which it has) instead of making senseless fart jokes about a serious topic.

Rape is an emotionally charged issue. You cannot look at something emotional without looking at the emotion. It doesn't even make sense to try. It's like dealing with the loss of a loved one without talking about grief.

My 1 in 6 reference to six women you know was to put things into perspective and wasn't meant to be a "reality" example. Figurative speech is so misunderstood...

I used females as an example. Clearly men can be raped as well and the issue isn't usually a woman raping a man; it's a man raping a man. Which has even worse stigma associated with it.

I'm glad my point about the humor was understood by at least a couple of people. It's terrible when the media is a persons only source of reference for their opinions. That's why I phrased the rest of my post to think of the reality of rape... they're real people like your sister or your daughter. Sure, the media accounts for a very, very small sampling of rape cases, but they're far from the norm (like the article Steen referenced).

Thought and humor are not always appropriate in place of the other. If it's not "always"... then they are mutually exclusive.

Edit: And note, the bottom of my statistics link references the Bureau of Justice. I think that's fairly clear where the statistics came from...

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maximile

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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 18:51      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
maximile wrote:
It's happened with sexism, racism, homophobia... as soon as people are comfortable enough to joke about it, that's when you start to make real progress.\

As I recall from history class, it was freeing the slaves and a civil war that started us on the path to real progress against racism. Not a bunch of white actors in blackface singing "Mammy".

While we're at it, it will apparently come as a surprise to you to find out that Susan B. Anthony and most other women who were pivotal to women's rights were not a stand up comics.

In fact, I'd like you to point out one example of a comic who made a difference with any of those things.

My argument would be that freeing the slaves and the civil war were huge steps against the symptoms of racism, but did little against the racist feelings in people (and perhaps even increased resentment, which seems likely to me though I have to confess I don't know much American history). And similarly with women's rights.

I think that comedy has a big effect on this residual resentment/prejudice, in a similar vein to "reclaiming" words like queer or nigger. Certainly not the biggest effect; I'd imagine that people dying has the biggest effect. But still very significant.

You asked for examples, which is where my theory all falls down. (Or perhaps it tumbled a long time ago... it makes sense to me though). A few months ago I tried to find some reputable sources talking about this effect, and I didn't find much. But I think that's partly because it's happening now, and the effects aren't really measurable.

But I can say that in high school, there were very few people who were totally committed racists/sexists/homophobes. There were very few people who had no prejudice at all. The majority of people had inherited a little fear of people different from themselves, from their parents. And the effect that comedy had in these people was undeniable, in my eyes.

And one of the most uplifting, promising things I've seen was these people laughing about calling each other gay, and laughing at racist jokes, and all that sort of childish behaviour... all done with no malice. That these people find the idea of judging someone based on race, or sexuality, or sex, so ludicrous that they find it funny... it just filled me with hope for the future, and I was happy to join in.

Posts: 1085 | From: London, UK (Powys, UK in hols) | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 18:55      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
CrawGator wrote:
The article to me represents the level of insanity that our society has reached. My wife read the article and laughed at it. She said "They should not have started something they were not willing to finish". Remember this is coming from a rape victim.

To a limited extent, I can agree that the that article shows the level of insanity that our society has reached, but I would have to question your wife's statement. The problem with her argument and the laws the article discusses, is one of context. To use an over-the-top example, there is a world of difference between a woman changing her mind if the plain missionary style sex gets boring and a woman changing her mind if the guy starts slapping her around and choking her when she's not into that sort of thing.

These things need to be looked at on a case-by-case basis and not simply relegated to a law that says "if it takes more than 5 seconds to stop after she says no, it's rape." Laws that are written too explicitly always wind up letting some guilty people go free and convicting some innocent people on technicalities.

Well of course the whole thing has to be taken in context. I certainly wasn't going to quote the whole discussion we had. What's amazing right now is this woman of mine who does not participate in online forums wants to answer.

<CrawGator's Wife>

I was talking about the ones that are like the first case you mentioned. Those make me mad because it's not fair to the man and people who really have been raped. The second case is rape as far as I am concerned.

The idea of a law that puts a time limit on stopping is crazy. What is she going to do, say no or stop and then pull out a stopwatch to time the guy? I mean really. It becomes a he said/she said argument and it will come down to which person is more believable and if the jury is in doubt they will take the woman's side because it's the safe choice. But hey, it might make men think twice before wanting to have casual sex in the first place and I would be all for that.

</CrawGator's Wife>

quote:
If a woman does not know a guy well enough that she does not know he won't stop when she says stop then she should not be putting herself in that position.

It's an unfair comparison, but Jeffrey Dahmer's neighbors said "He was shy, a little withdrawn. But not real bizarre," and "he never bothered anyone." You can't always tell who the bad guys are in real life.

That's why I said "There is nothing to lose by waiting to have sex." The Boy Scout motto is be prepared; women should take that to heart and learn enough about the guy's personality first. I admit some people are hard to pin down like J.D. but for the most part people do reveal their true natures over time. The problem is that we live in an instant gratification society and we aren't willing to wait anymore for anything. If a guy is unwilling to wait, then he probably isn't worth having.

quote:
Reread the article. It even mentions a "sexual consent contract".

That particular bit is courtesy of The National Center for Men. You'd have to look at their website to understand just how little regard you should pay to anything they say. The reporter either didn't check them out before quoting them or was more interested in a controversial point of view than in a intelligent one.

My point is that I find the very idea of a sexual consent contract ludicrous. Thus my posting of the link of a couple of college kids and their lawyers negotiating one. It boggles my mind with the heightend awareness of STD's that people will just jump into bed with someone whom they just met that night and practically know nothing about. What ever happened to being responsible?

/Edited for spelling

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 19:08      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Colonel Panic wrote:
Samuel Clemens

“He was thinking about his wife and his children, away up yonder, and he was low and homesick; because he hadn’t ever been away from home before in his life; and I do believe that he cared just as much for his people as white folks does their’n. It don’t seem natural, but I reckon it’s so.”

From Huckleberry Finn


Ahh yes, Huckleberry Finn. Written in 1876, 13 years after the emancipation proclamation of 1863. I'm sure Mark Twain was really the catalyst for change, though, and that whole freeing-the-slaves thing had nothing to do with moving society towards ending racism. [Roll Eyes]

I understand that this might not acheive the level of sophistication for you, Steen, that "Smokey and the Bandit Part III" holds for you (See http://www.geekculture.com/ultimatebb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=002613 )

I fixed the link for you, so it's not quite an accurate quote. Sorry if that detracts from you making fun of my level of sophistication. Also, when you're discussing sophistication, use a spell checker so that you don't transpose e and i... It just undermines your attempted point.

As much as I'd like to respond, I haven't watched those movies and really have no clue what happens in them other than a vague idea that there must be some speeding? Use Les Miserables next time... I have that memorized.

Believe me, having lived in the south, I realize how difficult it is for somebody in the south to understand the concept of literacy. But I haven't given up hope on you.

Nor I on you. Eventually you're going to realize that not everyone living in the south fits the stereotype that you have of them.

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Posts: 6364 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 19:40      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by catgoddess:
It's terrible when the media is a persons only source of reference for their opinions.

Why Mayella Ewell!

How is life in yo' neck of the trailer park?

Look how Tom Robinson done treated you!

Why that Atticus Finch and Harper Lee, they is just baaaaad folks, ain't they?

Now, why a man gotta suffer in prison 'causin' you or your trailer trash friends gets all drunk up an' suffers a Britney Spears Spears moment?

Colonel Panic

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 19:45      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
Eventually you're going to realize that not everyone living in the south fits the stereotype that you have of them.

But the folks in the south who believe racism down there ended with the civil war certainly do nothing to dispel the stereotype, do they Steen?

Colonel Panic

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 19:50      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Colonel Panic wrote:
But the folks in the south who believe racism down there ended with the civil war certainly do nothing to dispel the stereotype, do they Steen?

I wouldn't know, since absolutely nobody believes that. Not even the most stereotypical racists on the planet. Your view of the world is completely irrational.

... and this topic has nothing to do with racism, so take your inane, trollish comments elsewhere. You've already filled in half a row on the BINGO card...

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 20:04      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I feel compelled to answer this one being someone who is clearly from the south.

Stereotypes do have a grain of truth in them, otherwise they would not exist. Do I have black friends? Yes I do. Do I think negatively of black people? Only when they give me cause. Trashy people come in all colors and you can tell who they are by the way they present themselves to society. I admit I do think less of a person who wears his pants under his butt and every other word out of his mouth is f*** or s**** or some other swear word no matter what color they are. It just happens to be that most of them that I see have an abundance of melanin in their skin. You can be assured that when I see someone whose skin is a lighter color and behaves in similar fashion I am also disgusted by them.

We know racism did not end with the Civil War, and many of us who are enlightened are teaching our children to judge people by their actions. You can't possibly make me believe that racisim is completely eliminated north of the Mason-Dixon line. We might completely eliminate racisim by the time my grandchildren have grandchildren. I am always hopeful that that day will come.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 21:15      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
Colonel Panic wrote:
But the folks in the south who believe racism down there ended with the civil war certainly do nothing to dispel the stereotype, do they Steen?

I wouldn't know, since absolutely nobody believes that. Not even the most stereotypical racists on the planet. Your view of the world is completely irrational.

Which followed ...

quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
Ahh yes, Huckleberry Finn. Written in 1876, 13 years after the emancipation proclamation of 1863. I'm sure Mark Twain was really the catalyst for change, though, and that whole freeing-the-slaves thing had nothing to do with moving society towards ending racism. [Roll Eyes] [/QB]

Craw,

Steens contridictory words betray his ugly bigotry.

He is so typical of the wild-eyed racist whose words one moment carry no meaning the next.

I understand that not everyone in the South is a racist or a bigot.

Then again, the way Steen parades in his pointy hat and David Dukes, it becomes clear that the south still has its racists.

As for racism and accusations of rape. The novel "To Kill A Mokingbird" addressed the issue well.

It is an unfortunate legacy of the South.

The fact that Steens bigotry is not universally condemned indicates that the southern behavior of tacitly approving outrageeous racist and bigoted acts is alive and well. Is it no wonder that 60s lynch mob leaders are not convicted until they are bed-ridden and need the medical care a prison can give them?

Stand with him if you must. But don't stand with George Wallace at the schoohouse doors one moment -- draped in the stars and bars -- then say, "We're not all that way!" the next. People do have memories, even if Steen believes those memories are peculiarly short.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt. You have always seemed like a good guy. But you cannot sit on the fence post now.

Steens hatred towards me goes back to when I posted my picture on this site and he became enraged that a person with "some blood in him" dared post here.

His behavior, along with some others with exreme right-wing and racist views, seems to peak when "southern heritage" issues are broached. At those times he goes off on a Fox News/Bill O'Reilly kook rant, accusing those with whom he disagrees of nutty behavior.

Apparently this is because he has no cyber access to a rope and a can of gasoline.

Go Steen, go!

Colonel Panic

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Posts: 1809 | From: Glacier Melt, USA | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2007 21:56      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Ahh yes, Huckleberry Finn. Written in 1876, 13 years after the emancipation proclamation of 1863.
The Emancipation Proclamation was the union outlawing slavery in the confederacy, not in the union. Which is:
1. Like the US passing laws in France
2. Just a moral tag-on to an economic war
3. The beginning of a long strugle for equality, not the end.

quote:
I'm sure Mark Twain was really the catalyst for change, though,
Which was his point. ... Darn, I'm agreeing with CP, aren't I?

quote:
and that whole freeing-the-slaves thing had nothing to do with moving society towards ending racism. [Roll Eyes]
Actually, it did very little toward moving society. It wasn't untill Rosa Parks (1955, well after 1876), that the real march to full equal legal standing began.

quote:
I fixed the link for you, so it's not quite an accurate quote. Sorry if that detracts from you making fun of my level of sophistication. Also, when you're discussing sophistication, use a spell checker so that you don't transpose e and i... It just undermines your attempted point.
Sophistication, intelligence, spelling and knowledge are all seperate vitues.

quote:
Believe me, having lived in the south, I realize how difficult it is for somebody in the south to understand the concept of literacy. But I haven't given up hope on you.

Nor I on you. Eventually you're going to realize that not everyone living in the south fits the stereotype that you have of them

Here, I shock myself by agreeing with Steen.

I feel dirty, I've agreed with both CP and Steen in the same post. [Big Grin] [Eek!] [Big Grin]

quote:
Stereotypes do have a grain of truth in them, otherwise they would not exist.
This simply isn't true. There are a lot of completly baseless sterotypes out there.

quote:
Trashy people come in all colors and you can tell who they are by the way they present themselves to society.
Book by it's cover?

quote:
I admit I do think less of a person who wears his pants under his butt and every other word out of his mouth is f*** or s**** or some other swear word no matter what color they are.
"Every man is in some my way better, in that I learn from him." -- Carnagie

Just because you disapprove of someone's mannor of dress or the words he uses, doesn't mean that they are any less your equal.

quote:
It just happens to be that most of them that I see have an abundance of melanin in their skin. You can be assured that when I see someone whose skin is a lighter color and behaves in similar fashion I am also disgusted by them.
So, dress and culture, not race, is at the core of your prejudices. How is that any better?

quote:
We know racism did not end with the Civil War, and many of us who are enlightened are teaching our children to judge people by their actions.
This is the opposite of what you just said.

quote:
You can't possibly make me believe that racisim is completely eliminated north of the Mason-Dixon line.
It's not, unfortunatly. Milwaukee is fairly well intergrated now, and I didn't see a lot of discrimination in the education system or in employment (though, I'm a member of the majority); but, I do see people make comments about people of other ethnic backgrounds while walking through the streets or in the malls.

quote:
We might completely eliminate racisim by the time my grandchildren have grandchildren. I am always hopeful that that day will come.
That may be, but there will always be groups and cultures who are looked down upon... I don't know why it is human nature to form strong identies with groups and to look down on groups outside of ones own... But I fear it will take more than a few generations before logic prevails.

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