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Author Topic: Toys for Tots rejects 4000 talking Jesus dolls
The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted November 16, 2006 14:00      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
As for the whole doctrine of "Seperation of Church and State": I've examined that issue numerous times over the years and am convinced that the authors of our founding documents intended that the Church should not RUN the State. (Hear, hear to that.) That said, they never intended that the Church should not be allowed to operate as the Church within the State.

Your Catholic background is showing GG.

The tradition within Catholic countries was for the Church to wield unhealthy influence on the State.
The situation in England (and the 13 colonies before 1776) was the reverse, the State ran the Church.

It seems pretty clear from what people wrote at the time that they wanted to avoid both.

This latter development seems to be the rallying cry of [Edited: from 'any' to:] some who don't want religion, God, Church or whatever in their lives. While it is easy enough to grant their wishes for themselves, it is puzzling that some of them do not want anyone else to have religion, God, Church or whatever in their lives.

As someone who endured compulsory bible classes in a state school (even though the law here forbids it, how does a 10 year old hire a lawyer?) I'm against the state imposing a religion on those who don't believe. When merkin politicians insist on "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, that's what they're doing. Don't believe me? Imagine the reaction from your neighbors if it was changed to "under Allah".

As for the toys-for-tots thing, as I understand it, it's a voluntary thing the marines run in their spare time, so the church/state issue shouldn't apply.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Serenak

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Icon 1 posted November 16, 2006 19:01      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TFD:

I hold your comments in very high regard, you always seem to me to post cogent and sensible remarks...

Garlic Guy has never made any secret of his Catholic faith and to my recollection has never attempted to convert anyone (I would say "prolyetise" but I can't find a confirmed spelling...) any more than I or you have.

If I have become confused over who posted what in a fury of quotes within quotes I apologise in advance!

Separation of Church and State is a "Good Thing"(TM) if it stands for no /imposition/ of any particular religion or denomination on any particular inhabitant of the the state... and the freedom of each to practice religous faith as they see fit

It becomes a "bad thing"(tm) if it is seen as an excuse to absolve the responsibilty of any party to all other parties to the agreement... That is (IMHO) freedom to practice your religion as you see fit does not remove the obligation to allow the same freedom to others that you may find difficult...

Do as you will shall be the whole of the law, save that it does no harm unto others... (Alistair Crowley - self styled "great beast")

or as the great philosphers Bill and Ted put it...

"Party on dudes, and BE EXCELLENT TO ONE ANOTHER..."

Find me one real religion that does not actually have that at its heart... no really at its real kernel, not at its surface.

We can all find nasty passages in the Bible or Koran (or or other "holy scripture" that says "stone the witch", or "kill the infidel" etc.. but read carefully - the central tenet is always "do as you would be done by"

Many passages quoted by "Christians" to promote their "fundamentalist" views are by default negated by Jesus' own rules... the ten commandments become two...

Love thy God and most importantly LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF.... (think carefully and see that actually all ten of the traditional commandments can be incorporated in these two...)

I am (btw) an agnostic with athiest/neo pagan leanings... but I have read the bible and several other "holy writings"

Whatever your faith or none... I think Bill and Ted have it down to the T.

I have no faith... but I try to "do as I would be done by" and from all the religious teachers I have spoken to (and that includes Christian, Jewish, Muslim and Ba'Hai- all Abrahamic religions I admit) you cannot go far wrong on that path... the few Hindus and others I have had the chance to converse with see it slightly differently, as in you will only garner good karma from that road.. which to me comes to the same end.

Sometimes it seems that good is only repaid in disappointment and evil in gain... but I know what I would rather do.

I will continue to try to do good and get kicked in the teeth till I die - not for some "heavenly" reward but because I have been "down and out" just as I have been "riding high" at times.

I have meandered off the point.. but what I meant to say was (I guess) GOOD IS AS GOOD DOES

All the rest is irrelevant...

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"So if you want my address - it's No. 1 at the end of the bar, where I sit with the broken angels, clutching at straws and nursing my scars..."

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted November 16, 2006 19:20      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
High On Jesus - Kinky Friedman

Walking down Division Street
I happened on to meet
A stranger with a package in his hand.
He said, 'Mister, if you follow me
Rainbow colors you will see,
I'll take your head into the Promised Land.'

'Friend, I don't need your stuff,
My Jesus is enough.
You see them colors bright,
Why can't you see the light ?'

Let's get high on Jesus, high on Jesus,
I believe that He was here in town.
Flying high on Jesus, high on Jesus,
I'm so high I'm never coming down.

One man buys a nickel sack,
Another buys a Cadillac,
They both think they will drive their cares away.
But neither thinks to lend a hand
To help his struggling fellow man,
They'd better buy their tickets now for Judgment Day.

Oh, friend, let's try to score
For peace and not for war,
For love and not for hate
Before it gets too late.

Let's get high on Jesus, high on Jesus,
Ain't you ever heard the Nazareth sound ?
Flying high on Jesus, high on Jesus,
I guess, my friend, the Lord still gets around.

An angry mob confronted me
By the university,
'Down with this and down with that' they cried.'
A burning bottle in his hand,
A long-haired youth screamed, 'Come on, man,
The conscience of America has died!'

'Friend, I don't get my kicks
Starting fires and throwing bricks,
I pray someday you find
The gentle reason I'm

So high on Jesus, high on Jesus,
They tried to put His body under ground.
Flashing high on Jesus, high on Jesus,
But friend, you just can't keep the good man down.'

Oh, let's get high on Jesus, high on Jesus,
They tried to put His body under ground.
Flashing high on Jesus, high on Jesus,
But friend, you just can't keep the good man down.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted November 16, 2006 19:21      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm not sure TFD and GG are arguing. If they are, they should stop because they both just said the same damn thing: the church should not run the state (the bulk of Continental Europe before the 18th century), the state should not run the church (merry olde England), and it would be nice if the atheists and the theists would stop imposing their views on each other.

Serenak: those that gained by doing bad risk falling on their own swords. Here in the States we've seen some politicians go down because of this (Tom Delay anyone?). My big dilemma is, when that happens, is it wrong for me to enjoy the spectacle? Because I love it when a corrupt politician or businessman ends up in the courthouse. I really do.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted November 16, 2006 19:24      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So, do you think they'd accept the talking Southpark Jesus and Satan dolls?

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted November 16, 2006 22:59      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Serenak:
Garlic Guy has never made any secret of his Catholic faith...

Perhaps I should clarify...

I wasn't having a go at GG for being Catholic, merely pointing out that in the Catholic world, the struggle has been to keep the Church from meddling in State affairs, while the problem in the UK (and the 13 colonies) was to keep the State from meddling in Church affairs.


quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
I'm not sure TFD and GG are arguing ... it would be nice if the atheists and the theists would stop imposing their views on each other.

Well said. [Applause]

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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The-Tech
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Icon 1 posted November 17, 2006 04:31      Profile for The-Tech     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Serenak:
TFD:
LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF....

I've gotta j*rk him off too ? Sorry couldn't resist the chance for a Rodney Dangerfield line !
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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted November 17, 2006 07:40      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wow! This thread is becoming more and more enjoyable by the moment.

Steen: (Ever with the twisted sense of humor), I am still laughing at your last post. Xanth and TFD and Serenak and I are all in agreement.

Druid: A personal question, if you don't mind. (And I am not meaning to doubt your veracity, merely amazed that such conditions still existed so recently): In which country was the schooling you described compulsory? I am opposed to 'forced' learning and have taught and worked against such for years. For me, it is a sin to bore or oppress children.

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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Grey_girl

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Icon 1 posted November 17, 2006 09:35      Profile for Grey_girl     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Um, guys?

Toys for Tots will now accept talking Jesus dolls - from AP, via CNN.com

My family is military. As a kid, my mom took me to the toy store every December, and we would pick out a toy that I would later donate to Toys for Tots. I've done the same with my son. However, I was taught that the program was nonsectarian. It was inclusive of all creeds, colors and religions. That was a big part of why my family participated every year. My family is also part Jewish and part Christian. So although I'm glad a solution was found, I wholeheartedly support the earlier decision not to take the donations. Jesus dolls seem wrong to me, in the context of Toys for Tots. The essence of the Toys for Tots program isn't that it supports a Christian holiday - it's about doing something for those less fortunate at a time of the year when they'd be more sensitive about it. Christmas is really no more than a convenience for the program, albeit one that arises from a Christian tradition. But what it comes down to is this - the program embodies a spirit of giving we should strive toward all year long, not only now, and not only toward those who share the same faith.

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Black Widow
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Icon 1 posted November 17, 2006 10:43      Profile for Black Widow     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Grey_girl:
Um, guys?

Toys for Tots will now accept talking Jesus dolls - from AP, via CNN.com

See here.
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted November 17, 2006 13:57      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
Druid: A personal question, if you don't mind. (And I am not meaning to doubt your veracity, merely amazed that such conditions still existed so recently): In which country was the schooling you described compulsory?

Here in oz, in a government school.

The law forbids 'compulsory' religious education in government schools here, but it's kind of hard for a 10 year old to 'stand up for his rights' in cases like this. The one muslim kid in the class got to go out and play on the swings while the rest of us endured a very "old-testament" style bible instruction - lots of emphasis on the punishment various people got for disobeying THE LORD.

And situations like that still exist in this country. The school my daughters go to has genuinely optional (and multi-faith) religious education (run by outside volunteers, no taxpayers money spent), but a friend of mine had to send lawyers letters to his kids school before the principal would allow his kids to opt out.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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garlicguy

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Icon 11 posted November 17, 2006 14:00      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Truly! I had no idea such things still went on in that manner... [shake head]

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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Serenak

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Icon 1 posted November 17, 2006 15:20      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oh what a joy...

A GC thread where discussion is just that... no major name calling required!

Xanthine and others: I am totally in agreement regards the matter of church controlling state or state meddling with the church... neither is a desirable condition - separation of church and state should mean that both have their own rights and responsibilities, and do not directly meddle in each other's affairs though each obviously has the right to comment on the other's behaviours.

TFD: I did not mean to imply that you were "taking a pop" at Garlic Guy and if my rambling post came across that I did I am sorry. One problem with a bulletin board/forum like this is that the time delays occasionally muddy the memory of exactly who said what - and rereading the whole thread I think it is clear we are pretty much all in agreement over where and how the religious world and the state should interact...

[Big Grin]

and thank heavens no one has let any barking dogs out for once!

--------------------
"So if you want my address - it's No. 1 at the end of the bar, where I sit with the broken angels, clutching at straws and nursing my scars..."

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted November 17, 2006 16:58      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I went to schools for at least 10 years where we had at least one chapel service every day and usually more. I don't think it did me or any of my schoolmates any harm. I got ten years of readings from the Authorised version, which contains some of the most beautiful things in the whole of English Literature. I also got to know and love many beautiful hymns and other music from the English choral tradition. Nobody was brainwashed, as children on the whole are a fairly irreligious lot, and have much stronger bullshit detectors than most adults give them credit for. As a side benefit it made me think quite long and hard about religion generally and why I had no faith. As a result I never felt seduced for a minute by all the wooly Eastern mystical claptrap that arrived with drug culture in the 60s, or the other more sinister cults like the Moonies, Scientologists, or the Children of God that followed later. I always felt that those people I knew who had no exposure to religion in their education were far more susceptible to the allure of these fanatical and evil cults.

I am uncertain if I would feel the same way if I had been forced to listen to one of the ugly modern translations of the Bible, or sing those awful naff shine Jesus shine type modern hymns, or if the religion I had drummed out of me was something more demanding than that of the very reasonable, conventional, middle of the road Church of England flavour, but on the whole I think jamming a little religion down a child's throat is no bad thing!

As far as those dolls go I object to them strongly, but only on grounds of taste. I feel pity for any child finding one of those under his Christmas tree, as I have seldom seen anything more yukky, and cannot imagine any child playing with them, except perhaps with extreme violence. "Biff boff , you don't mess with the Prince of Peace mmmkay?"

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted November 17, 2006 18:14      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
As far as those dolls go I object to them strongly, but only on grounds of taste. I feel pity for any child finding one of those under his Christmas tree, as I have seldom seen anything more yukky, and cannot imagine any child playing with them, except perhaps with extreme violence. "Biff boff , you don't mess with the Prince of Peace mmmkay?"

Yes, I imagine there would be some demented little monsters out there who would love to play "Crucifiction". [evil]
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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted November 17, 2006 18:24      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GMx wrote:
Yes, I imagine there would be some demented little monsters out there who would love to play "Crucifiction". [evil]

Surely not...

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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JulioC
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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2006 06:48      Profile for JulioC     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Black Widow:
quote:
Originally posted by Grey_girl:
Um, guys?

Toys for Tots will now accept talking Jesus dolls - from AP, via CNN.com

See here.
I'd buy one.

Love Jesus dolls that try and be accurate, instead of making him a blue-eyed, dark blonde European.

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www.jcmrpgart.blogspot.com
612toApocalypse

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