homeGeek CultureWebstoreeCards!Forums!Joy of Tech!AY2K!webcam

The Geek Culture Forums


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Geek Culture Forums   » News, Reviews, Views!   » Politics/Religion/Current Affairs   » Tolerance (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!  
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: Tolerance
boo
Highlie
Member # 5991

Icon 1 posted November 07, 2006 15:02      Profile for boo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't know where all the posters here reside, but in the US, tolerance has been a big subject the last few years.

In particular, there has been an ongoing effort to promote tolerance of a homosexual lifestyle, and immigrants (legal or otherwise. For us, that is largely Mexicans.)

Similar subjects may be meaningful or not in your part of the world. Maybe in your area there appears to be no need for promoting tolerance, or maybe the subject matter might differ from that here in the US.

In my example, tolerance would be more fully described as "freedom from bigotry."

With that definition in mind, do you consider yourself a tolerant person?

Posts: 775 | From: us of a | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
Sxeptomaniac

Member # 3698

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted November 07, 2006 15:36      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." Gilbert K. Chesterton

--------------------
Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

Posts: 1590 | From: Fresno, CA | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
BooBooKitty

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 5566

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted November 07, 2006 15:58      Profile for BooBooKitty     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I just had a brief discussion at work about music and indirectly touched upon the tolerance issue:

Dixie Chicks

So much for freedom of expression...

Posts: 796 | From: Montreal, Canada | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
spungo
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1089

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted November 07, 2006 16:07      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BooBooKitty:
I just had a brief discussion at work about music and indirectly touched upon the tolerance issue:

Dixie Chicks

So much for freedom of expression...

America hater! [Wink]

--------------------
Shameless plug. (Please forgive me.)

Posts: 6529 | From: Noba Scoba | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sxeptomaniac

Member # 3698

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted November 07, 2006 16:32      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BooBooKitty:
I just had a brief discussion at work about music and indirectly touched upon the tolerance issue:

Dixie Chicks

So much for freedom of expression...

They were free to express their views, just as their fans were free to express theirs. Freedom of speech doesn't mean that there won't sometimes be consequences, particularly when saying something unpopular.

--------------------
Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

Posts: 1590 | From: Fresno, CA | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
spungo
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1089

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted November 07, 2006 16:39      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ok, but doesn't being banned from country radio constitute censorship? Do burning piles of CDs not worry you with its Nazi connotations? I think the Dixie Chicks controversy is a good example of how the right are prefectly willing to run roughshod over every sensible tenet of civilized society, without so much as a blink.

I can't stand James Blunt, and all his middle-of-the-road lollipop music, with it's irritating sentimentality - that doesn't mean I would ever consider petitioning a radio station to have his songs removed from the airwaves.

--------------------
Shameless plug. (Please forgive me.)

Posts: 6529 | From: Noba Scoba | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan
Member # 170

Icon 1 posted November 07, 2006 16:54      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
When did a law get passed saying they coudln't be played on the radio? If you piss off all your fans and nobody wants to hear you, you cannot demand that the radio play your music.

And as far as burning CDs, I can't say I'm thrilled to see it, but are you going to ban it and prevent people from expressing themselves that way? Freedom of expression sometimes means accepting that people will express things you don't like.

--------------------
Worst. Celibate. Ever.

Posts: 6364 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Sxeptomaniac

Member # 3698

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted November 07, 2006 17:09      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by spungo:
Ok, but doesn't being banned from country radio constitute censorship? Do burning piles of CDs not worry you with its Nazi connotations? I think the Dixie Chicks controversy is a good example of how the right are prefectly willing to run roughshod over every sensible tenet of civilized society, without so much as a blink.

If someone wants to burn their own CDs as a statement, I'm not going to ask that they stop. It's their right to make a statement, as long as they aren't endangering anyone. As far as Nazi connotations, I don't see them. Nazis burned books in order to deny access to them, but the former fans burned CDs in order to make a statement. From my end, I didn't see anyone saying that all Dixie Chicks CDs should be destroyed, only that people could come and destroy them if they wanted to make their statement.

quote:
Originally posted by spungo:
I can't stand James Blunt, and all his middle-of-the-road lollipop music, with it's irritating sentimentality - that doesn't mean I would ever consider petitioning a radio station to have his songs removed from the airwaves.

Right. However, I imagine you don't listen to stations that play his music, either. If enough people feel the same way, then stations would stop playing his music, or risk losing listeners. That wouldn't mean James Blunt was being censored.

--------------------
Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

Posts: 1590 | From: Fresno, CA | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
spungo
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1089

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted November 07, 2006 17:24      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
Right. However, I imagine you don't listen to stations that play his music, either. If enough people feel the same way, then stations would stop playing his music, or risk losing listeners. That wouldn't mean James Blunt was being censored.

It would be if I managed to get political lobbyists and organized groups onboard - if I had corporations too scared to advertize on stations that refused to cooperate.

Don't believe me? Can't find any press statements from companies who took this action and admitted their motives freely? Well, there's a surprise. Here's a question: what sort of media reaction would you expect if this sort of thing was true?

--------------------
Shameless plug. (Please forgive me.)

Posts: 6529 | From: Noba Scoba | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
garlicguy

Member # 3166

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted November 07, 2006 19:17      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." Gilbert K. Chesterton

Well if you're going to go around quoting the Apostle of Common Sense, Sxepto - I'm just not going to play! [Wink]

gg  -

--------------------
I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Posts: 3752 | From: Pluto, no matter what you call it, is still my home. | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
TMBWITW,PB

Member # 1734

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted November 07, 2006 19:46      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
When did a law get passed saying they coudln't be played on the radio? If you piss off all your fans and nobody wants to hear you, you cannot demand that the radio play your music.

And as far as burning CDs, I can't say I'm thrilled to see it, but are you going to ban it and prevent people from expressing themselves that way? Freedom of expression sometimes means accepting that people will express things you don't like.

Since when is tolerance a matter of law? This shouldn't be confused for a thread about free speech. You are completely free to be a bigoted asshole. The question is, are you? [Razz]

--------------------
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."
óMiss Piggy

Posts: 4010 | From: my couch | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan
Member # 170

Icon 1 posted November 07, 2006 20:23      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TMBWITW,PB wrote:
Since when is tolerance a matter of law? This shouldn't be confused for a thread about free speech. You are completely free to be a bigoted asshole. The question is, are you? [Razz]

Freedom of expression was, in fact, brought up by BooBooKitty and censorship was brought up by spungo. Threads here wander from the topic. This one did almost immediately and the bulk of the posts have been about freedom of expression and not tolerance. Don't jump down my throat for responding to what people are actually posting about rather than the original topic.

But hey, thanks for giving us an example of the opposite of tolerance by labeling me as a bigoted asshole for no reason whatsoever. I can even halfway understand calling me an asshole, because occasionally I am, but I can't figure out where you came up with bigot from. Would you mind explaining that?

--------------------
Worst. Celibate. Ever.

Posts: 6364 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
TMBWITW,PB

Member # 1734

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted November 07, 2006 21:59      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
But hey, thanks for giving us an example of the opposite of tolerance by labeling me as a bigoted asshole for no reason whatsoever. I can even halfway understand calling me an asshole, because occasionally I am, but I can't figure out where you came up with bigot from. Would you mind explaining that?

[Confused] I didn't mean that you were Steen, I'm sorry it came across that way. I was just trying to give an illustration of a difference between freedom of speech and tolerance. I should have said "A person is free to be a bigoted asshole, the question is are they?" I'm really sorry.

I like your posts here. I wouldn't call you an asshole. [blush]

--------------------
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."
óMiss Piggy

Posts: 4010 | From: my couch | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan
Member # 170

Icon 1 posted November 07, 2006 22:20      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TMBWITW,PB wrote:
I'm really sorry.

Apology accepted, although it's not really necessary. Likewise, I apologize for assuming you were aiming the comment at me. You've never struck me as the sort of person who wastes her time insulting others.

--------------------
Worst. Celibate. Ever.

Posts: 6364 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Callipygous
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 2071

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted November 08, 2006 04:41      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Tolerance on its own is a pretty paltry virtue, it only means something when it leads to a mutual respect, like that shown in the last few posts by Steen and Peebs. Without that mutual respect tolerance quickly breaks down as soon as one party offends the other, whether intentionally or not.

What on earth am I trying to say? [devil wand]

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

Posts: 2922 | From: Brighton - UK | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
boo
Highlie
Member # 5991

Icon 1 posted November 08, 2006 05:14      Profile for boo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm always amused by how quickly a thread can veer off topic. [Big Grin] Tolerance to cd burning. [Smile] It's not exactly what I had in mind when I posed the question, but meh. It got people talking.
Posts: 775 | From: us of a | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
JulioC
Geek
Member # 4370

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted November 08, 2006 09:06      Profile for JulioC     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nine Inch Nails were banned from singing at the MTV awards.Reason? They had a poster of George Bush (unaltered, normal presidencial portrait) that they were going to use as a backdrop while singing "the hand that feeds"

Rage Against the machien were banned from 3 late night shows because of a tshirt with Bush's face, another was they hanged an american flag upside down, and the other bcause they were planning to have images from their "testify" video playing in the background.

Some examples off my head... its hilarious whenever someone says US and "democracy" or "freedom of speech" in the same sentence... both are worth nothing if you are banned from using it.

--------------------
www.jcmrpgart.blogspot.com
612toApocalypse

Posts: 182 | From: Brazil | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sxeptomaniac

Member # 3698

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted November 08, 2006 09:12      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by spungo:
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
Right. However, I imagine you don't listen to stations that play his music, either. If enough people feel the same way, then stations would stop playing his music, or risk losing listeners. That wouldn't mean James Blunt was being censored.

It would be if I managed to get political lobbyists and organized groups onboard - if I had corporations too scared to advertize on stations that refused to cooperate.

Don't believe me? Can't find any press statements from companies who took this action and admitted their motives freely? Well, there's a surprise. Here's a question: what sort of media reaction would you expect if this sort of thing was true?

It depends on what the companies were afraid of. Boycotts are also a legitimate form of expression. I consider censorship a top-down action, in that the government decides what's OK, and prevents access for everyone. Since I never saw any sign of government interference in that whole mess, I wasn't inclined to worry about censorship.

--------------------
Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

Posts: 1590 | From: Fresno, CA | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ugh, MightyClub
BlabberMouth, the Next Generation
Member # 3112

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted November 08, 2006 11:09      Profile for Ugh, MightyClub     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by boo:
I'm always amused by how quickly a thread can veer off topic. [Big Grin] Tolerance to cd burning. [Smile] It's not exactly what I had in mind when I posed the question, but meh. It got people talking.

What's that? You do indeed need tolerance in CD burning. If you don't have that laser frequency set just right the CD player will never be able to...

Oh, wait...

Sorry, never mind [Wink]

--------------------
Ugh!

Posts: 1742 | From: Ithaca, NY | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Red Five
Maximum Newbie
Member # 6537

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted December 06, 2006 12:42      Profile for Red Five     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Only governments can censor. The Chicks used their freedom of expression to say they were ashamed that President Bush was from Texas (though they were outside the borders of the US at the time, curious...), and America as a whole and country music specifically used their freedom of expression to tell the Chicks to go to hell. The people did it by burning their Chicks CDs on their own, and the radio stations did it by refusing to play their tunes. No rocket science here.

Now, as to the original topic of the discussion, tolerance, the problem here is that it's usually we on the right who are being implored (read: demanded) to tolerate certain lifestyles or certain illegal activities as if they were good and right (and in some states, they are given special privileges not afforded to the rest of us). To top it all off, we on the right are not tolerated when we give our opinions on those certain lifestyles or certain activities, if those opinions differ from the "tolerant" position. We are called bigots, homophobes, racists, and so on.

To wit: illegal immigration is incorrectly conflated with legal immigration. Therefore, to be against illegal immigration is to be against immigration of any sort, which makes us racist bigots and hypocrites (since most Americans have at least a little immigrant blood in them).

More: the average homosexual lifestyle is deemed to be just as valid and stable as the average heterosexual lifestyle, and to be against two people of the same sex getting together in love makes us bigots and homophobes.

The conventional wisdom says, for instance, that immigration (illegal included), homosexual marriage, and Islam are all good, whereas following the law, traditional family values, and Christianity are all passť and therefore detrimental to society. Say anything against this "wisdom", and you'd better be wearing an asbestos bodysuit.

Tolerance is a two-way street, folks. I'll show you my tolerance if you show me yours. Personally, I don't see the fat lady warming up to sing any time soon, so flame on.

Posts: 16 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
garlicguy

Member # 3166

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted December 06, 2006 13:01      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nice post, Red!

[Applause] [Applause] [Applause]

You going to introduce yourself with an "All about You" thread, or merely dazzle us with your commentary?

[Big Grin]
gg

--------------------
I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Posts: 3752 | From: Pluto, no matter what you call it, is still my home. | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ashitaka

SuperFan!
Member # 4924

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted December 06, 2006 13:21      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Red Five:


To wit: illegal immigration is incorrectly conflated with legal immigration. Therefore, to be against illegal immigration is to be against immigration of any sort, which makes us racist bigots and hypocrites (since most Americans have at least a little immigrant blood in them).


There is a problem with saying, "My ancestors emigrated here legally therefore any new american coming to the country must also immigrate legally." It is that America has built in so many barriers to the immigration process.

I speak from the experiences of my foriegh born wife. Even if a Mexican immigrant like her has an assured green card, they probably do not have the approx $700 to apply for citizenship. If you want to be gainfully employed and go through this process you must have a very understanind boss so that you can travel, in our case 70 mi, to the correct government offices to jump through the correct hoops at the correct time. The above step also requires a car.

You want people to emigrate legally? I'm sure many more would if it was possible.

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

Posts: 3089 | From: Switzerland | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
never_ask_why333
Geek
Member # 6340

Icon 1 posted December 06, 2006 15:02      Profile for never_ask_why333     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I would consider myself a very tolerant person, in the way that you describe. I do not descriminate; I give each person an equal chance. I have no problem with homosexuals, immigrants, other races, other religions, etc. Infact, i support most, if not all, of that . I am openminded, and will give anyone a chance. I will talk to anyone, regardless of how they dress, etc.

I think the only thing I'm not extemely tolerant of is those narrowminded people who are either ignorant, or just don't tolerate such things. I will talk to them and such, I just don't much enjoy it.

Good question though. very interesting and insighful.

--------------------
I haven't forgotten
and I won't forget
I just haven't gotten
around to it yet

You can call me Eternity :)

Posts: 155 | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
Stereo

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 748

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted December 06, 2006 15:05      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ok, Red, let's say it this way. When a society allows homosexuals to marry, do they prevent heterosexual to do so? No. Your opinion that marriage should be between a man and a woman is still respected. It's just that the society just say homosexual partners should get the same social recognition than heterosexual partners. That is what tolerance is about.

If you want to mix tolerance and freedom of speech, then ponder the following. Should we allow some people to tell others that black are under-humans? That the Nazis were right to kill the Jews? They would just be stating their opinion, aren't they? Well, no. That's called hateful speech, and chances are it's against the law. Now tell me, will you find yourself before a court for stating that illegal immigrants should be thrown out? I doubt so. So the society as a whole respect that opinion as valid, and acceptable. Against majority's belief, maybe, but still valid.

What? what you really want is to have people listen to you religiously when you state your opinion? Well, you could talk before a crowd of your like-minded, or before deaf-mutes, or some similar extreme solution; but don't expect people who disagree not to say so. And the more strongly they disagree, the more strongly they'll argue against you. It's called exchange of view, and that's the way idea propagate. If your arguments are stronger than your detractors, you may "convert" some, to the point it becomes the majority's opinion at some point. Otherwise...

So, following this logic, I hope you have some new, unheard of arguments to support your opinions, because up to now, the values you hold (or the ones you took as examples, at least) have been losing momentum.

--------------------
Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

Posts: 2289 | From: Gatineau, Quebec, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Callipygous
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 2071

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted December 06, 2006 15:33      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Stereo excellent rebuttal! [Applause] [Applause] [Applause] [Applause]

I am always amused by the way that these poor oppressed extreme right wing characters suffering persecution and oppression from the rest of us always like to lay claim, as Red 5 has done to "traditional family values". I suppose this means he and the little woman live in the Little House on the Prairie, where the scent of a freshly baked apple pie drifts from a neat kitchen to the outside where two scrubbed Norman Rockwell children play happily in the sunshine. The rest of us of course all live in crack houses, devoid of love and compassion, as irresponsible personally as we are politically. [Wink]

What a twit!

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

Posts: 2922 | From: Brighton - UK | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged


All times are Eastern Time
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Geek Culture Home Page

© 2015 Geek Culture

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.4.0


homeGeek CultureWebstoreeCards!Forums!Joy of Tech!AY2K!webcam