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Author Topic: United States monopolizes space
DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted October 18, 2006 14:27      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Now I know G.W. has gone off the deep end. Bush signed a document that bars from space any country that the government considers hostile. So what happens when China decides to launch another space flight? It's not like the U.S. and China are allies. Does G.W. seriously think he can deny other countries access to space? If so he's completely loopy.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted October 18, 2006 14:50      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CrawGator:
If so he's completely loopy.

I believe you've hit the nail on the head.

Actually, it looks like a geat opportunity to transfer another few hundred billion dollars of taxpayers money into the pockets of his pals in the military-industrial complex.

Prediction: within a few months, Haliburton will have a 'Space Weaponry' division.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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stevenback7
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Icon 1 posted October 18, 2006 14:55      Profile for stevenback7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Okay thats just stupid.

Gosh, why would the American goverment even put such a bill through goverment. The main threat right now is nuclear weapons and not space weapons. Plus there are third part organizations who stop any illegal satelites going up which might carry weapons and there are even more companies which stop countries from using their spy satelites to spy on top secret bases. This bill will probally be shut down by the UN once it is need to be shut down.

Plus why would America think it has the rights to space. Everyone has equal rights to space until we discover the alliens. And yes i think bush is a little more then loopy and for the sake of not wanting black vans to show up at my house i will keep that opinion to myself,

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted October 18, 2006 14:56      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
So what happens when China decides to launch another space flight? It's not like the U.S. and China are allies. Does G.W. seriously think he can deny other countries access to space? If so he's completely loopy.
The policy is bad... That said, if China launched a space flight, the US would call them allies. Remember that China still has MFN, IIRC.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted October 18, 2006 16:33      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
stevenback7 wrote:
Gosh, why would the American government even put such a bill through government.

Because Bush and the rest of the current administration haven't quite managed to piss off every other nation on the planet yet? Not for lack of trying, mind you.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 19, 2006 09:18      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
CrawGator__________________Lets not stop there, try looking at this, I know that GG is going to say that look at the sourse. I did and I still think it should be posted.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/19/opinion/19thu1.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

I think that he is afraid that North Korea will launch a space shuttle.

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted October 19, 2006 12:51      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You people aren't very good at "reading between the lines."
quote:
from article:
new policy to ... deny "adversaries" access for hostile purposes.

As an example, suppose North Korea says they're going to launch a communications satellite, but they refuse to allow the rocket payload to be inspected, and they refuse to have foreign entities launch the satellite despite the increased cost and likelihood of failure by launching from North Korea.

Who knows, maybe North Korea would announce the failure of their rocket guidance and propulsion systems shortly before it impacts Japan.....

quote:
October 18, 2006 14:27
So what happens when _____ decides to launch another space flight?

But no names were mentioned.... Hmmm, so he couldn't mean somebody like North Korea, so North Korea shouldn't think this is specifically refers to them.

quote:
October 18, 2006 14:55
Plus there are third party organizations who stop any illegal satellites going up....

Please clarify that. Once a rocket is launched, stopping it from "going up" isn't simple or practical.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted October 19, 2006 13:32      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
Y suppose North Korea says they're going to launch a communications satellite, but they refuse to allow the rocket payload to be inspected

Suppose the US millitary wants to launch a communications satalite. Should France get to inspect it? The point here is that the US doesn't own space.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted October 19, 2006 14:53      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Did anyone really read the article?

quote:
"The United States will preserve its rights, capabilities, and freedom of action in space... and deny, if necessary, adversaries the use of space capabilities hostile to US national interests," it says.
It doesn't say that the U.S. will prevent hostile countries from entering space, only that it will prevent them from interfering with its interests in space. So, the gist of the bill is that the U.S. will protect its stuff in space... now there's a shocking statement. [Roll Eyes]

I consider it one of those "the people are watching, let's look busy" kinds of bills. There's nothing really new or surprising involved, just stating the obvious in order to make it look like work's being done.

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted October 19, 2006 16:24      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Generally speaking, the major industrial nations believe the concept of MAD (Mutual assured destruction). As a result, all sides are attempting to avoid their worst possible outcome -- annihilation.

MAD is not a tool to blackmail other countries:
quote:
Russia: You better give us __x__, or we'll launch our nukes.
US: You better give us __y__, or we'll launch our nukes.
Russia: So, you won't give it to us. We're launching all our nukes.
US: Oh yeah. We're launching all our nukes.

MAD is a policy of self-restraint -- to "avoid the worse outcome."

quote:
October 19, 2006 13:32
Suppose the US military wants to launch a communications satellite. Should France get to inspect it?

The first reason the major industrial nations don't bother to inspect each other is MAD: There is a high level of confidence that the "other nation" will not launch something that provokes global annihilation.

The second reason is that once a satellite goes into orbit, "everyone" knows it's there and can figure out exactly what it is.

quote:
October 19, 2006 14:53
... just stating the obvious....

I'm betting Russia and China read the news, yawned, and finished eating breakfast.

quote:
"Nations don't have friends. They have interests,"
    -- attributed to various sources

"Nations have no permanent friends and no permanent enemies, only permanent interests."
    -- attributed to various sources



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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted October 20, 2006 07:41      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well there is this thing that the U.N. has called the space treaty. What did you say? North Korea hasn't signed it? Yes I am aware of that. However, this type language should be an amendment of that treaty, specifying that all nations that signed that treaty have the right to defend themselves against hostile nations that would have space based armaments regardless of whether the attacker signed the treaty or not.

The treaty could be further amended to state that the nations who signed the treaty would back each other using both diplomatic means and military force to stop any aggressor nation that uses space based weaponry. Despite the status of the lack of U.S. popularity, I have a feeling this would pass without a problem. This would also ensure that the North Korean government would think twice about launching armed satellites.

It's a matter of diplomacy that the U.S. is seriously lacking in of late. It would behoove our government to stop stepping on other nations toes as it were. We may be the only super power in the world right now, but that does not mean it will last forever. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, Ottoman and England all had there times when no other nation was stronger than them. It is the height of hubris to think that the U.S. will be any different. How we act while we are on top will be taken into consideration when we fall from our lofty position. It may not happen in our life time or even in our grand children's life time, but it will happen. You know what they say, be careful of who you step on when you on your way up, because you might have to kiss their ass on your way down.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted October 20, 2006 14:47      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
October 20, 2006 07:41
This would also ensure that the North Korean government would think twice about....

No it wouldn't. So far, Kim Jong Il has shown that he "doesn't care what the UN thinks" and "doesn't care what the US or the rest of the world thinks." His behavior is the same as it's always been.
quote:
North Korea Missile Launch Over Japan (Sept 1, 1998)

 -
Note: Firing "test missiles" (without consent) over neighboring countries is hostile.

Probably the only thing that would make Kim Jong Il "think twice" is if China sent him a letter saying "if you do __x__, we will kill you before the Americans can even think about it."

quote:
... specifying that all nations that signed that treaty have the right to defend themselves....
That's a loophole guaranteed to result in "some nation" using the treaty to support a first-strike.

quote:
... state that the nations who signed the treaty would back each other....
If you paid attention to world events, you'd see that nations don't "back each other" when it means losing money. (References: "nations don't have friends", Niccolo Machiavelli, etc)

quote:
It's a matter of diplomacy that the U.S. is seriously lacking....
Would it have been more diplomatic for the US to say:

      "... if you think that not signing a treaty will save you after making repeated threats against the US -- YOU'RE WRONG."

quote:
It would behoove our government to stop stepping on other nations toes as it were.
Using only North Korea as an example, launching missiles over neighboring countries and setting off nukes is a lot more than "stepping on toes."

Would it "behoove" other countries to stop "stepping on toes?"

Whose "toes" are being stepped on?

What does "not stepping on toes" do to eliminate bad behavior?

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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JulioC
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Icon 12 posted October 21, 2006 22:52      Profile for JulioC     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
US owes too much money to China to be able to do anything...

America's debt with China is standing at $202 billion making it 27% of total US trade deficits in 2005.

China's exports to US reached $762 billion, and China has used that money to buy $660.1 billion worth of import, TWICE what US imports yearly.

Beware...

All your base will soon belong to Mr Wong [Wink]

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