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Author Topic: You can get better
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 08, 2006 03:52      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi All_____________________________As most of you know we Americans (US) will be having an election soon, Now we can continue on the same way we have or we can throw the bums out its, Your call. If you vote for an incumbant you will get more of the same its Your Call. I know that some of you will say not my bum its, YOUR CALL. If you do not vote its, YOUR CALL. Think long and hard do you want more of the same or change its, YOUR CALL.


Now "lets hear Paint it Black."

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted October 08, 2006 07:09      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Agreed. We need to throw the bums out. In fact, had this nation followed the early plan (advice) to replace them every four years (automatic term limitation, eh) we wouldn't be in our current pickle.

But lest anyone think that replacing the "Republican" administration and Congress with a "Democratic" version would be a good solution, I need to suggest that those two political parties are two sides of the same coin. No matter what issues they campaign on, their agenda is pretty much the same: More power to the rich and powerful while throwing some scraps to the dogs. The have their own agendas and almost always disappoint those who elect them.

My own practice is to always vote for whatever person shows the most integrity, regardless of their party affiliation. In those races where the only candidates all appear to be thieves or worse, I write in "None of the Above" or the name of a person whom I know to have character.

If we would "throw the bums out" every four years as you suggest, Mo , the party political system would be forced to correct itself. There is a problematic side effect however. The non-elected employees in Washington could/would wield even greater clout than present. It seems the solution to this would be to have much less government overall.

How many times have we heard that as a campaign promise only to be taxed more heavily so that new and larger bureauracies could florish?

Never the less, I heartily agree that things need to be shaken up at the polls.

--------------------
I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 08, 2006 08:25      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GG_________________Both B. Franklin and T. Jefferson warned about too large of a Government, alas no one listened. I thing I do wish for is a none of the above, if None of the above was the lesding vote getter then new election, without the above named.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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stevenback7
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Icon 1 posted October 08, 2006 08:50      Profile for stevenback7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think the american people are charmed by a politician who promises them the american dream. Even if that politician in question is a lousy public speaker. Even if that politician is just saying he wants his people to live the american dream so he can live out his dream of war. Even if that politican dosn't care about his people instead just cares about his own ass and who will be covering it.

I think the American people should choice politicains by there actions and not there words. If a politician is making millions from oil and has a family history of being war crazy then don't choice that politician. If the opposing politician has a good record and wants what is best for him people and not what is best for his own ass then choice that politician.

If the American people ever get a chance too I think they should take a look at their own asses and see how dirty they are. Don't condem another nation and say the're asses are dirty and need a good cleaning without looking at your own first. Sometimes other nations needed a helping hand but if they aren't causing you a problem then don't bother them.

The American people should start looking at the people who are trying to make a difference in the lives of people. maybe not everyone of these people can help america clean up its act but i know for sure there are some out there who can give america the helping hand it needs.

Disclaimer: My opinion and my metaphors.

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Comic Book Guy: There is no emoticon for what i'm feeling.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted October 08, 2006 08:55      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:

But lest anyone think that replacing the "Republican" administration and Congress with a "Democratic" version would be a good solution, I need to suggest that those two political parties are two sides of the same coin. No matter what issues they campaign on, their agenda is pretty much the same: More power to the rich and powerful while throwing some scraps to the dogs. The have their own agendas and almost always disappoint those who elect them.

I had that epiphany a few months ago. Go ahead and laugh, but I'm young. And now I'm extremely bitter and angry because I feel like I have no viable alternatives. I'm going blue just because 1) there's no viable third party option, 2) I like what my current congressman is doing and the red gubernatorial candidate's campaign ads annoy me and 3) change is scary, but sometimes not changing is even worse.

I was trying to explain exactly what you just said gg, to someone a while back but they either didn't get it or refused to. But I was also doing a piss-poor job. :/

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted October 08, 2006 09:13      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I align myself with Libertarianism more than anything. But it is probably safe to say I lean left in my beliefs too.

Gov't is not evil in and of itself, but one that is too large and cumbersome leaves many dark corners to keep things nice and quiet.

If people decided to drop the idea of partyies in general, I believe that we would be much better off. Be informed and research the candidates, all of them, and make a quality decision on all the beliefs of the person running for office.

And when I don't vote for a major party, I do not believe that I am throwing my vote away. I believe that the people that vote for one side, because they are gonna win, do. If you do not speak your beliefs, then your voice is going to be lost in the sea of white noise that is politics.

We had a viable multi-party system at one time. Why can't we have it again?

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Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted October 08, 2006 14:36      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CommanderShroom:
We had a viable multi-party system at one time. Why can't we have it again?

Because your voting system actively discourages voting for minor parties.

Any 'first past the post' voting system tends towards a 2-party system, because in a very real sense, those who vote for the minor parties are throwing their vote away, and the average voter knows it. The 2000 US election is a case in point, I bet a lot of people regret voting for Nader.

There are other voting systems that don't have this problem, in many countries they have Proportional Representation, so if a party gets 25% of the votes, they get (about) 25% of the representatives in the parliament. Then there's the aussie system, where you rank candidates in order of preference, so you can put a minor party candidate first, then say which of the major parties you prefer. For a long time now, oz has had 4 parties in the federal parliament, (5 at the moment) and a healthy sprinkling of independants.

The other problem with the US system is that so much of the burden of fundraising is placed on the candidate, which puts them at the mercy of special interests with fat cheque books. A system of state-funding of campaigns, along with a limit on total spending, would do much to reduce the power of cashed-up donors.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted October 08, 2006 17:26      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Too bad Rep. Ron Paul from texas cant be cloned. whether you agree with his politics or not(classical libertarian) he ALWAYS votes his talk.
He is so chock full of integrity and steadfast belief in his priniciples I am surprised he isnt permanently constipated.

Sigh. I guess the best plan has already been mentioned, vote the individual and not the party. Second best is just always vote against the incumbent. Shake it up a bit.

Oh and in case anyone is interested here is his voting record. Refuses to vote for anything that is not in the constitution.

http://www.vote-smart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=BC031929

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted October 08, 2006 17:43      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Because your voting system actively discourages voting for minor parties.

Sorry I will disagree with you again, as always, the U.S. citizens themselves discourage voting third party.

And if you regret the person that you voted for, the you have a made a piss poor error in judgement.

/me wipes hands and goes to another thread.

--------------------
Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted October 08, 2006 21:12      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by YaYawoman:
Too bad Rep. Ron Paul from texas cant be cloned. whether you agree with his politics or not(classical libertarian) he ALWAYS votes his talk.

I'm not a big fan of the Libertarians, but I'll have to keep an eye out for him. I've been watching for Sen. Barack Obama in the news (I was hoping he might run for president in '08, but he's said he won't), though I still think highly of John McCain.

quote:
Originally posted by CommanderShroom:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Because your voting system actively discourages voting for minor parties.

Sorry I will disagree with you again, as always, the U.S. citizens themselves discourage voting third party.

True, although I think our presidential primary system is horribly screwed up. Why should Ohio and New Hampshire have such a significant say in which two yoyos we have to choose between later? We need a national primary badly.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted October 08, 2006 23:01      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Any system where a vote for Nader helps put Bush in the whitehouse, or a vote for Perot helps put Clinton in the whitehouse, is seriously broken.

This is what people mean when they say a minor party vote is "wasted" - and they're right. If you want to break the two-party duopoly, that's where you need to start.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted October 09, 2006 08:07      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I remember the Democratic primaries. By the time they got to CO Kerry had pretty much sewn things up. This left me more than a little disgruntled. I'm not a big fan of ANYONE who voted "yes" on the Iraq war. :/

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted October 09, 2006 10:49      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Any system where a vote for Nader helps put Bush in the whitehouse, or a vote for Perot helps put Clinton in the whitehouse, is seriously broken.

This is what people mean when they say a minor party vote is "wasted" - and they're right. If you want to break the two-party duopoly, that's where you need to start.

I happen to agree - this is our necessary starting point. But where to begin? The two reigning parties are certainly not going to help, and minority groups, Libertarians, People's Party and Constitution Party all seem to end up as political machine wannabes with more nutjobs than the Democrats or Republicans.

Personally, I blame Cap'n Vic and spungo.

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted October 09, 2006 12:02      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm still waiting for the formation of the Silly Party. [Wink]
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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted October 09, 2006 13:43      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Maybe by Easter it'll be scattered around in little egg-shaped containers.

..or just scattered around..

..or exit the back end of the Bunny..

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted October 09, 2006 13:52      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GMx:
I'm still waiting for the formation of the Silly Party.

Why go for half measures?

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted October 09, 2006 15:08      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Any system where a vote for Nader helps put Bush in the whitehouse, or a vote for Perot helps put Clinton in the whitehouse, is seriously broken.

This is what people mean when they say a minor party vote is "wasted" - and they're right. If you want to break the two-party duopoly, that's where you need to start.

I happen to agree - this is our necessary starting point. But where to begin? The two reigning parties are certainly not going to help, and minority groups, Libertarians, People's Party and Constitution Party all seem to end up as political machine wannabes with more nutjobs than the Democrats or Republicans.

Personally, I blame Cap'n Vic and spungo.

Yes it's like a "chicken and egg" thing. In order to fix the voting system so that minority parties have a better shot, you would have to elect enough of them into office to pass the legislation that would fix it. It could also be argued that once they got into office that the legislation would not be necessary because the people fixed it by voting for the third party candidates. A real change for the better would be to have a run-off election when none of the candidates receive more than 50% of the popular vote and a third place candidate secured enough of the popular vote to change the election outcome if everyone who voted for the third place candidate voted for the second place candidate. Of course the problem is that we have this thing called the electoral college over here which means that a president can be elected even if the popular vote is against them. [ohwell]

As for the two main parties, I think the way the political winds are blowing that we might just see Hillary Clinton run for the office in 2008. Out of all the democratic politicians, I think she would be their strongest contender. Besides that, look at who would be the Republican candidate; Dick Cheney. I think people who normally don't vote would come out in force to make sure he doesn't become president. A third party candidate that would have a strong platform would be someone with a good plan for ending the occupation of Iraq, bringing our troops home and repairing diplomatic relations with the rest of the world. I am hoping for good things in 2008.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted October 09, 2006 15:45      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CrawGator:
Yes it's like a "chicken and egg" thing. In order to fix the voting system so that minority parties have a better shot, you would have to elect enough of them into office to pass the legislation that would fix it. It could also be argued that once they got into office that the legislation would not be necessary because the people fixed it by voting for the third party candidates.

Yes, the old "Any system that put me in power must be good" problem.

As I understand it, the way it happened in New Zealand a few years back was that there were several minor parties getting votes, but no elected representatives. One of the major parties saw an opportunity, and ran on an "electoral reform" policy. Many of the minor party voters backed them, they formed a government and, much to my surprise, actually kept their promise.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted October 09, 2006 15:53      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CrawGator:
As for the two main parties, I think the way the political winds are blowing that might just see Hillary Clinton run for the office in 2008. Out of all the democratic politicians, I think she would be their strongest contender. Besides that, look at who would be the Republican candidate; Dick Cheney. I think people who normally don't vote would come out in force to make sure he doesn't become president. A third party candidate that would have a strong platform would be someone with a good plan for ending the occupation of Iraq, bringing our troops home and repairing diplomatic relations with the rest of the world. I am hoping for good things in 2008.

It almost certainly won't be Dick Cheney. He's stated pretty strongly that he's retiring from politics at the end of the term, if not before. I would like to see McCain run again, and he might have a better chance of making it past the primaries this time.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted October 09, 2006 16:12      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
It almost certainly won't be Dick Cheney. He's stated pretty strongly that he's retiring from politics at the end of the term, if not before. I would like to see McCain run again, and he might have a better chance of making it past the primaries this time.

I must have missed that, but to be honest, I have really been avoiding political news about him.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted October 09, 2006 17:30      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
It almost certainly won't be Dick Cheney. He's stated pretty strongly that he's retiring from politics at the end of the term, if not before.

He's going to become a full-time hunting guide. [Edit: For left-handed folks only, though.]

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted October 10, 2006 07:09      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hear Yea, Hear Yea___________________Yeah I did at one time feel that John McCain was very MOTR (middle of the Road) until this last six years. He has show that he is cut from the same cloth as the rest of the GOP, I guess our best hope is a MOTR DEM is there such a thing?

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted October 10, 2006 14:55      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
I would like to see McCain run again, and he might have a better chance of making it past the primaries this time.

Sxepto I don't want to scare you but I am a bit of a fan of McCain too! He gave a memorable radio lecture here last year, and is I believe a very considerable and thoughtful politician.

As for minor parties, the disadvantage with electoral systems that give them a fairer representation is that you then seldom get a clear majority for any party which leads you into coalition politics with its backroom deals and compromises all round, which brings its own set of problems, and is arguably even less democratic, as nobody then ever gets what they voted for. So it's swings and roundabouts.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Icon 1 posted October 11, 2006 04:36      Profile for dragon34     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
John McCain was one of the few politicians I had any respect for, but I agree with MoMan, His political pandering over the last few months has made me lose much of my respect for his integrity. I went to a debate last week between local candidates for state representative, and it was just so obvious that the republican candidate (incumbent) was a politician, 9/11 this, 9/11 that, I have always voted Pro-Life, we need to stay in iraq blah blah blah, while the Dem, a college professor, had IDEAS. Actual IDEAS, unique ones even. Halle-fuckin-lujah. He was a guy, who wasn't happy with how things are going and ran for office. How it should be, rather than people who have been in politics so long, they no longer can tell (or perhaps care) if they lie, and their only goal is to keep their cushy jobs.

I really think we need term limits for branches of congress as well to eliminate "career" politicians and limits on how much they are allowed to spend to level the playing field so you don't have to be wealthy just to run, and eliminate corporate donations over 1000 dollars entirely. Politicians should not *ever* be in debt to corporations. It makes them forget that they're there for the people, and few people can donate millions of dollars at a time.

Plus, we really don't need campaigns to go on for so long anymore. We have TV and internet, they don't need to take trains around the country for 9 months. shorten campaigns to 8 weeks, then maybe people wouldn't be so sick of the negative ads and the campaign crap being shoved down their throats 24 hours a day that they don't bother voting because they are disgusted with all of candidates and sick of the whole process. Maybe going back to the person with the 2nd highest number of votes gets to be VP, you know, like it says in the freaking constitution. The first choice, second choice, third choice thing would be neat too, but good luck getting a two party government to vote that crap in. They're by and large out to protect themselves and their corporate sponsors, not the country, and certainly not us.

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Metasquares
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Icon 1 posted October 11, 2006 06:11      Profile for Metasquares   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Political parties violate the doctrine of separation of powers. Enough said.
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