homeGeek CultureWebstoreeCards!Forums!Joy of Tech!AY2K!webcam

The Geek Culture Forums


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Geek Culture Forums   » News, Reviews, Views!   » Politics/Religion/Current Affairs   » United Nations Relocation ! (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!  
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: United Nations Relocation !
ASM65816
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 712

Member Rated:
2
Icon 3 posted October 01, 2006 00:54      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 -
Is there anything that would make them take Mideast peace more seriously?

Then again, they might wait until after the first mushroom cloud to debate enforcement and compliance related to resolutions and treaties on nuclear proliferation and Hezbollah....
[ohwell]

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
CommanderShroom
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 2097

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted October 01, 2006 07:19      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Or set it right by the "fence" around Gaza. Perhaps they would pay a bit more attention to that crisis too.

Perhaps nice summer offices in Darfur...

I can think of a few U.S. gov't officials I wouldn't mind hanging out at the local shops by the Palestinian airport.

--------------------
Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

Posts: 2465 | From: Utarrrrggggghhh!!!!!!!! | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Callipygous
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 2071

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted October 01, 2006 17:51      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:

Is there anything that would make them take Mideast peace more seriously?

If you have a wonderful solution to this intractable problem, please share. It has so far eluded some of the best political brains in the world, so if your solution is good and workable, you should also be able to pick up next year's Nobel peace prize, a fairly useful slice of cash.

If however what you really mean when on earth will the UN become a rubber stamp for thuggish US foreign policy and its illegal wars, well I hope never.

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

Posts: 2922 | From: Brighton - UK | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Explainer
Mini Geek
Member # 5716

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted October 01, 2006 18:05      Profile for The Explainer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
Then again, they might wait until after the first mushroom cloud to debate enforcement and compliance related to resolutions and treaties on nuclear proliferation and Hezbollah....

The author of the above believes believes that nuclear proliferation in the middle east is a problem, and that the UN should 'do something' about violations in this area.

His reference to Hezbollah (when Israel is actually the nuclear 'outlaw' in the region) is presumably a typographical error.

Posts: 53 | From: The hall of logic | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Jace Raven

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 2444

Icon 1 posted October 02, 2006 17:21      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explainer:
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
Then again, they might wait until after the first mushroom cloud to debate enforcement and compliance related to resolutions and treaties on nuclear proliferation and Hezbollah....

The author of the above believes believes that nuclear proliferation in the middle east is a problem, and that the UN should 'do something' about violations in this area.
But I thought sharing is caring? Honestly. If the United states is so fortunate to harness the power of Fusion and all it's destructive capabilities, why not share that with EVERYONE?

If everyone has it, there will be nothing to worry about...

Posts: 1791 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Xanthine

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 736

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted October 02, 2006 18:06      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Are you speaking of the peaceful MADness of the Cold War?

--------------------
And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

Posts: 7670 | From: the lab | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 712

Member Rated:
2
Icon 2 posted October 02, 2006 21:15      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
October 01, 2006 17:51
If you have a wonderful solution to this intractable problem, please share.

The United Nations is "all talk." However, self-absorbed, pompous apathy would be more accurate.

quote:
If however what you really mean when on earth will the UN become a rubber stamp for thuggish US foreign policy and its illegal wars, well I hope never.
As far as I can tell, the United Nations considers genocide a legal activity of sovereign states -- for the benefit of dictatorships.

Considering that AK-47's are a weapon of choice, China and Russia supply these weapons, and the UN turns a blind eye to massacre in the "third-world," it's China, Russia, and "third-world" dictators that benefit most from UN policy. Note: Saddam didn't qualify as a third-world dictator because Iraq had advanced technology and industry.
  • Clinton -- Not the UN -- stopped "ethnic cleansing" in Bosnia.
  • "Everyone" knew that Saddam had slaughtered thousands of Kurds, but that wasn't a reason for the UN to act against him.
  • Darfur "refuses" peacekeeping forces?
    quote:
    UN: Is it ok if we try to limit your genocidal activities?
    Sudan: No.
    UN: Well then, thank you very much. Carry on butchering masses of defenseless people.

  • ... and many, many more.

UN Policy: Kyoto Protocol -- Sign of US "Rubber Stamp"?
quote:
Carbon emissions in China are projected to increase by 836 million metric tons between 1990 and 2010, and an another 634 million metric tons are projected to be added between 2010 and 2020. Much of the increase in China is attributed to continued heavy reliance on fossil fuels, especially coal.
In the Kyoto Protocol, China is listed as a "developing country" which means China can increase carbon emissions with no restrictions. Russia got to backdate its emissions to 1990 so it can increase emissions by 60% (the USSR collapse resulted in 40% less USSR pollution) or sell the credits.

Apparently there's a widely held belief that China, Russia, France, and dozens of other UN member nations should never have to risk anything in the interest of peace or anything else.

Anyone that knows history should see the "hypocrisy" of China and Russia condemning other nations for killing millions of their own citizens. Maybe that's why they're not concerned about Darfur and why they didn't interfere in Rwanda.

Even when the UN passes punitive resolutions, they sabotage the resolutions and render them useless.

Saddam made it obvious that the UN could be bought by a genocidal dictator. First he refused WMD inspections, then he spent $2 billion on 78 palaces with "Oil for Food" program money. Saddam was such a screw-up that Clinton was dropping bombs on Iraq in 1998. Saddam was publicly paying $25,000 per suicide bombing to support terrorism against Israel. I guess the UN didn't see anything wrong with paying a person $25,000 to kill unarmed people.

In 2004, UN Security Council Resolution 1559 called for the disarmament of all militias in Lebanon -- including Hezbollah. When Hezbollah refused to disarm, the UN chose appeasement, and Hezbollah continued to attack Israel with weapons supplied by Syria and Iran.

As far as I can tell:

People claim that the UN is a puppet of America because the alternative is to place the blame for the United Nations' numerous and horrific "failures" on other countries. Note: The prevalence of UN corruption is enough to fill books -- literally.

quote:
October 01, 2006 18:05
His reference to Hezbollah (when Israel is actually the nuclear 'outlaw' in the region)....

I guess you're trying to be funny, since it's well known that Iran has violated the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty of the International Atomic Energy Agency by covert enrichment of uranium. Speaking of outlaws, Iran is the country that called for the assassination of Salman Rushdie, supports the policy of "death to those who insult Islam," and held a conference entitled "A World without Zionism" declaring "wipe Israel off the map." What's going on? Does Iran have a UN approved plan to peacefully exterminate all Jews on earth?

I've never understood the Arab fear of Jews.

Maybe as an American, I can't imagine a tiny country "crushing" another country 750 times larger.

#include sarcasm.h
[shake head]   Those poor, poor Arabs. They only outnumber Jews by 287 million. If you count all Muslims, the Jews are outnumbered by more than a billion. The Arab/Islamic nations in the region are only 600 times the size of Israel, and they have all the oil in the region while Israel has none. If Iran could just kill 15 million Jews, they could find a way to prosperity instead of being a poor country with nothing but vast oil and gas reserves.

quote:
from an 8th grade textbook: "Al-Mutalaa Wa-Al-Nussous Al-Adabia"

Zionism is poised to take over.... In the third stage, it will invade Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and the rest of the Arab states. This will happen unless the Arabs take serious steps to exterminate the Zionist germ and thrust this evil out of the Arab homeland.

A lot of things seem to threaten Muslims ... giant statues for example:
quote:
March 1, 2001

Afghanistan's puritanical Taliban Islamic militia began demolishing statues across the country on Thursday, including two towering ancient stone Buddhas. Militiamen started wrecking the almost 2,000-year-old Buddhist masterpieces in the central province of Bamiyan, including the world's tallest standing Buddha measuring 50 meters (165 feet).



--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Explainer
Mini Geek
Member # 5716

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted October 03, 2006 19:07      Profile for The Explainer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
quote:
October 01, 2006 18:05
His reference to Hezbollah (when Israel is actually the nuclear 'outlaw' in the region)....

I guess you're trying to be funny, since it's well known that Iran has violated the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty of the International Atomic Energy Agency by covert enrichment of uranium.
Mr 65816 believes international anti-proliferation agreements should be enforced, but not when countries he likes are the transgressors.

He also believes that the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty prohibits the enrichment of Uranium, it doesn't
quote:
The NNPT:
Nothing in this Treaty shall be interpreted as affecting the inalienable right of all the Parties to the Treaty to develop research, production and use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes without discrimination and in conformity with Articles I and II of this Treaty

quote:
Wikipedia:
There is currently no evidence that Iran is using its nuclear power capabilities to produce nuclear weapons, and the known facilities do not have the capability to produce weapons grade material.


Posts: 53 | From: The hall of logic | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 712

Member Rated:
2
Icon 2 posted October 04, 2006 12:29      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
October 03, 2006 19:07
international anti-proliferation agreements ... when countries he likes are the transgressors.

Israel doesn't go around saying stuff like "wipe all Arab countries from the maps."

quote:
From NNPT:
...to develop research, production and use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes....

Is Iran peaceful? Saying "wipe Israel from the map" didn't sound peaceful. Providing Hezbollah with such large amounts of weapons that the Lebanese army is incapable of disarming it -- doesn't seem peaceful. What was the purpose of calling the Nazi killing of millions of Jews a myth? It doesn't show any concern for truth by Iran.

quote:
... the known facilities do not have the capability to produce weapons grade material.
So you're assuming covert facilities aren't better than ones that Iran is willing to open for inspection by the world? One known facility was built in the 1960's by the US in support of the Shah. Wouldn't it seem unusual to build new facilities that are no better than one that is 40 years old?

quote:
September 2004:

Issues relate to Iran's development of a facility to enrich uranium which it had not declared, as it should have. The IAEA wants to know exactly what is going on.

It has asked where Iran acquired some advanced centrifuges, known as P2. Centrifuges are used to separate enriched uranium so that it can be used to fuel a nuclear reactor.

It is suspected that Iran got these from the network operated by the Pakistani scientist, Dr AQ Khan, whose activities were recently uncovered.

  • "A facility ... not declared" -- sounds like "Covert."
  • "Advanced centrifuges" -- sounds like "better than the old known facilities."
So far, your argument is: "We should trust Iran."
    ... despite Iranian actions.

EDIT: By the way ....
quote:
October 02, 2006, 18:06
Are you speaking of the peaceful MADness of the Cold War?

"MAD" may have "worked" for the US vs USSR. However, MAD is catastrophic when is one group is suicidal. Iran celebrated the suicidal act of sending their 12-year-old children into minefields so the lives of soldiers could be spared (1980s Basiji Operations).

... and from recruiting for Iran in 2005
quote:
In the Name of God, the Most High ...

"Martyrdom-seeking operations embody the pinnacle of a nation’s greatness and the apex of its epics"

His Eminence the Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei

Is there something peaceful about these suicide operations?

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Explainer
Mini Geek
Member # 5716

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted October 05, 2006 18:17      Profile for The Explainer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
1. Mr 65816 believes in a 'Daffy Duck' UN (teeth when convenient).
When a country he doesn't like ignores UN resolutions and international law, the UN should have teeth, and enforce its resolutions.
When a country he likes ignores UN resolutions and international law, the UN should be toothless.


2. Mr 65816 believes that "I have no proof - but I just don't trust the bastards" is grounds for going to war.

3. Mr 65816 enjoys a good rant.

Posts: 53 | From: The hall of logic | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 712

Member Rated:
2
Icon 5 posted October 05, 2006 19:22      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
October 05, 2006 18:17
... believes that "I have no proof...."

[shake head]     I'm curious about what you believe.

Would you call the US "evil" if its military used 12-year-old children to clear IED/mines, killing them so HMMWVs, tanks, and soldiers were not at risk?

If you say "yes," then you clearly don't apply the same standard to Iran -- indicating that you are a hypocrite.

You could say "no," but I doubt anyone here would agree with you.

Do you agree with the Iranian statement:
quote:
"Martyrdom-seeking operations embody the pinnacle of a nation's greatness and the apex of its epics."
In that case, Japan was "greatest" (kamikaze) as it was being defeated by the US, and the US has never really known "greatness."

Is Iran wise or foolish?

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chesty
Assimilated
Member # 2460

Member Rated:
2
Icon 1 posted October 05, 2006 20:33      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Peace in the Middle east. hmmmm

Never happened, never will.

People have been fighing the same dang war for three thousand years.

Their hatred for each other is genetic.

Posts: 416 | From: The Beach | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted October 05, 2006 20:57      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
People have been fighing the same dang war for three thousand years.

Their hatred for each other is genetic.

Actually, not so.

Until (relatively) recently, the jews and muslims got on ok. For centuries, the major centre of jewish scholarship was in Baghdad, at a time when jews in Europe lived in fear of the Inquisition. There was a thriving jewish quarter in Jerusalem, who got on fine with their christian and muslim neighbors. Even today, the (original) jewish inhabitants of Jerusalem are often at the forefront of jewish opposition to some of the harsher policies of the (newcomer-dominated) Israeli government.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Chesty
Assimilated
Member # 2460

Member Rated:
2
Icon 1 posted October 06, 2006 18:58      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Jews fought their way in to the land.
The Jews and Arabs have had enmity throughout the ages. However, Both religions have always had a tradition of hospitality and have accepted any who would dwell in their land as one of their own.

There have been times when there weren't any active battles - but Israel has been the scene of struggle for millenia. When It was under Roman Rule there was perceived peace, yet there was a large Jewish underground that sought to kick the Romans out.
The name Palestine derived from Philistine. Remember the Philistines? They were the ones the Israelites threw out of the area to begin with.

It has been going since the time of Joshua.

Posts: 416 | From: The Beach | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 712

Member Rated:
2
Icon 4 posted October 07, 2006 13:09      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
October 05, 2006 20:57
Until (relatively) recently, the Jews and Muslims got on ok.

I believe that you've mistaken subjugation as "getting along"/peace.

For example:
quote:
According to Tarikh-i Bukhara "The residents of Bukhara became Muslims. But they renounced [Islam] each time the Arabs turned back. Qutayba b. Muslim made them Muslim three times, [but] they renounced [Islam] again and became nonbelievers. The fourth time, Qutayba waged war, seized the city, and established Islam after considerable strife....They espoused Islam overtly but practiced idolatry in secret."
Subjugation -- in response to a force that clearly cannot be beaten, people say stuff like "hey! we love you and we want to worship your god." However, when the "force" is gone people return to ways of resistance.

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Callipygous
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 2071

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted October 07, 2006 17:57      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ASM you fail to answer his central point about your obsessive hatred of the UN, namely that your criticism is based on the notion that the UN is some kind of world government with an independent military capability, which it is not, and was never meant to be so.

Ooops sorry I forgot, you don't sully your posts with pedestrian things like logic, and reason. Anyway as I said before, it's perfectly obvious that the real reason that you would wish to see it destroyed is that it is can be a slight brake on the unfettered exercise of US power, and thank God for that. If you'd only paid some attention to the UN you might not be in that almighty mess in Iraq, a country now at civil war (whatever the politicians say) with a government of quite stunning ineffectiveness, and security services that seem to be utterly corrupt and completely out of control, and all of which was completely predictable from the most cursory reading of modern history.

Your government might learn more, and even act more wisely, if it tried to listen to and answer its critics, rather than hector, bully, and crudely insult them. You might also derive similar benefits if you chose to try and engage in real arguments rather than uncontrolled ranting.

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

Posts: 2922 | From: Brighton - UK | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Xanthine

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 736

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted October 07, 2006 20:18      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
People of the Book

This term was first introduced to me by a Muslim roommate and since then I've heard it elsewhere. Not all Muslims are rabid extremists, just like not all Jews are rabid extremists and not all Christians are rabid extremists. It is possible for all to live together when extremists aren't in power. Unfortunately, there are extremists in power on all three sides.

There's a weird dichotomy that always happens whenever you've got a clash of ethnic and religious groups. At the individual level, people can and do get along fine, mainly because, at the individual level, everybody wants more or less the same thing. They want to be sheltered. They want to be fed. They want to be warm. They want a useful occupation so they can have food, warmth, and shelter. They want to be able to raise their children in peace and comfort. THey want to be able to do whatever they need to do to be right with their god(s). And they want to be able to do this for as long as they live, and, if they're forward thinking, as long as their children live as well. This is accomplished by getting along with your neighbors, no matter who they are. Leaders know this. Smart ones strive to maintain this peace. But, every now and then, for reasons that could consume several books, leaders decided that it behooves them to whip up resentments and wake up rivalries that are best left sleeping. Most of these rivalries are so old and entrenched not even the most objective historian can figure out who started it, which is my polite way of saying I'm not even going to try and I don't think anyone else should either (unless you are, in fact, an objective historian). This is the situation in the Mid-east. This is also the situation in the Balkans, and probably several other hotspots around the world as well.

--------------------
And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

Posts: 7670 | From: the lab | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted October 07, 2006 20:31      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
But, every now and then, for reasons that could consume several books, leaders decided that it behooves them to whip up resentments and wake up rivalries that are best left sleeping...

..This is the situation in the Mid-east. This is also the situation in the Balkans

Depressingly easy to do.

/me used to work with an ethnic hungarian from what was then still known as Yugoslavia. He lived in an ethnically diverse village, where everyone got on fine with their neighbors, until the '80's, when various politicians started stirring up trouble. Within a few years, old friends from his school days were throwing rocks through his window, so he packed up his family and got out.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Xanthine

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 736

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted October 07, 2006 20:49      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Way OT, but was this northern Serbia? I hadn't heard of any violence happening up there, other than some unrest following Serbs fleeing Croatian misbehavior in the 90's, but I do know that Kosovo started destabilizing in the 80's, and I guess it's not too surprising if Vojvodina had some upheaval as well. All of Yugoslavia started unraveling shortly after Tito died. The last remnant came apart back in May, without bloodshed thank God (and if you ever get the chance, do pay Montenegro a visit - it's fscking beautiful).

--------------------
And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

Posts: 7670 | From: the lab | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 712

Member Rated:
2
Icon 1 posted October 07, 2006 21:36      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Part I: United Nations - "What do they contribute?"
quote:
October 07, 2006 17:57
UN is some kind of world government with an independent military capability....

Let's assume the UN is cooperative. Let's assume everyone "contributes what they can." As an example, let's look at a case where the "aggressor" was considered "clearly wrong."

Gulf War (1991): Coalition vs Saddam Hussein

Total coalition troops: 660,000
US troops in coalition: 550,000

Chinese troops: 0
Russian troops: 0
French troops: 14,663

If we assume the various nations are contributing what they can:

  The US has 80% of the world's military power.
  The Chinese military is insignificant.
  The Russian military is insignificant.
  The French military is about equal to 3% of the American military.

To repeat myself from October 02, 2006 21:15
quote:
Apparently there's a widely held belief that China, Russia, France, and dozens of other UN member nations should never have to risk anything in the interest of peace or anything else.
The UN doesn't have an independent military, it doesn't need an independent military, but it's clear that some countries contribute "nothing" in the interest of peace, etc. (Remember what China and Russia gave up for the Kyoto Protocol? -- Nothing.)

Part II: United Nations and Corruption

quote:
ASM you fail to answer his central point about your obsessive hatred of the UN
Sudan served on the U.N. Human Rights Commission -- Is the world supposed to believe that the vast majority of UN members thought Sudan was an excellent example of how a government should care for people?

The Kyoto Protocol: China is a "developing country"?!!! A nuclear arsenal, standing army of 2.2 million (over 3 million counting "paramilitary"), and $750 billion in exports. China isn't poor: They put their people in factories, pay them with food, shelter, and small change, then the government keeps the rest of the money. China has some of the most polluted cities in the world yet the Kyoto Protocol lets them do as they please.

Is the world supposed to believe that the vast majority of UN members didn't know about China's pollution record nor the size of its economy?

Saddam Hussein spent (estimated) $2 billion on his palaces while under UN economic sanctions: Is the world supposed to believe that the vast majority of UN members thought Saddam was acting in good faith to provide his people with food and medicine?

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez calls US President Bush "the Devil" and receives "loud applause" at the UN:
  • According to Amnesty International -- Venezuela: children as young as 12 brutally tortured and killed by the security forces ..... El Paraíso, Caracas, up to 40 inmates were killed in the massacre at La Planta prison indicating appalling prison conditions and systematic violations of inmates human rights ..... Venezuelan Security Forces Contributed to Violence Through Excessive Use of Force, Torture During Demonstrations
  • YouTube -- Music: "Firestarter" by Prodigy; Video: Venezuela
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ_V4G8qRAU
  • "Chavez's Censorship" (Washington Post, March 28, 2005)
    quote:
    ... a new penal code that criminalizes virtually any expression to which the government objects -- not only in public but also in private.

    Article 147: "Anyone who offends with his words or in writing or in any other way disrespects the President of the Republic or whomever is fulfilling his duties will be punished with prison of 6 to 30 months if the offense is serious and half of that if it is light." That sanction, the code implies, applies to those who "disrespect" the president or his functionaries in private; "the term will be increased by a third if the offense is made publicly."

    In simple terms, "offend" Chavez and crew with a true statement made in private and you can go to jail.

    [shake head]     ... and he receives loud applause at the United Nations. Obviously they like the kind of man he is.

BTW: Kyoto Protocol in Canada
quote:
Canada agreed under the Kyoto Protocol to reduce greenhouse gas emissions to 6 per cent below 1990 levels by 2012.

In 2004, the emissions are 26.6 per cent above 1990 levels, despite $7.7 billion spent by the previous Liberal government on climate change measures since 1997.

Nice try Canada (no offense intended), but what are China and Russia doing to save the environment? Who does the Kyoto Protocol really benefit? (Sarcasm: I don't think it's the baby seals.)

Part III: Did you know?
quote:
If you'd only paid some attention to the UN you might not be in that almighty mess in Iraq, a country now at civil war (whatever the politicians say)
Are you saying that about four years ago, you knew that Muslims would kill other Muslims by the thousands, they would bomb rival mosques, and they would turn a blind eye to a cleric having another Muslim cleric assassinated (Al-Sadr wanted for the April 2003 assassination of rival cleric Abd al-Majid al-Khoei)?

I believe you once conceded that the UN was "corrupt." However, you wonder why the US didn't want to follow the path that the UN had been on for 12 years -- providing billions of dollars of support to a genocidal dictator that would pay $25,000 per suicide bombing against Israel.

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ashitaka

SuperFan!
Member # 4924

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted October 08, 2006 03:31      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
ASM Total coalition troops: 660,000
US troops in coalition: 550,000

Chinese troops: 0
Russian troops: 0
French troops: 14,663

If we assume the various nations are contributing what they can:

The US has 80% of the world's military power.
The Chinese military is insignificant.
The Russian military is insignificant.
The French military is about equal to 3% of the American military.
American military.

There is having power and there is knowing when to use your power. Just because one doesn't fight doesn't mean they cannot. It probably means they know when to.

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

Posts: 3089 | From: Switzerland | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Xanthine

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 736

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted October 08, 2006 09:24      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Developing countries

China is rising, but things like a nuclear arsenal aren't the only standard of development.


The "we don't have to because they aren't" argument is juvenile. It never worked on my parents, and it shouldn't work with nations either.

--------------------
And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

Posts: 7670 | From: the lab | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted October 08, 2006 14:19      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Do mine eyes deceive me?

People actually trying to have a rational discussion with ASM?

Surely you all know better by now.


Xanthine: Yes, northern Serbia, can't remember the details. It's not surprising you didn't hear about the 'violence', an occasional brick through a window probably doesn't make the news, especially with so much going on elsewhere.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Xanthine

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 736

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted October 08, 2006 14:40      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, and I was also a child in the 80's and not very aware of things. Kosovo also got really restless in the 80's, and some rather draconian action taken by the Yugoslavian government set the stage for the massive blow-up in the 90's. In fact, the mess in Kosovo probably upstaged Vojvodina in the international news, and then the civil war upstaged all of that.

I was in Serbia recently meeting my bf's friends and family. I somehow got into a propaganda discussion with one of my bf's friends. The approach of their politicians towards drumming up support for wars was eerily similar to the approach of ours, albeit the scenarios were very different. Made both the Serbs and I very depressed.

--------------------
And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

Posts: 7670 | From: the lab | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Explainer
Mini Geek
Member # 5716

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted October 08, 2006 16:32      Profile for The Explainer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
quote:
If you'd only paid some attention to the UN you might not be in that almighty mess in Iraq, a country now at civil war (whatever the politicians say)
Are you saying that about four years ago, you knew...
 
 Mr 65816 believes that the current situation in Iraq could not be forseen, when at least one reliable source did.

quote:
Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq ... would have incurred incalculable human and political costs ... We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under the circumstances, there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see... Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different — and perhaps barren — outcome.

Posts: 53 | From: The hall of logic | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged


All times are Eastern Time
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Geek Culture Home Page

© 2015 Geek Culture

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.4.0


homeGeek CultureWebstoreeCards!Forums!Joy of Tech!AY2K!webcam