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Author Topic: Lets Say I Break Into Your House?
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2006 10:33      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi All----------------------This was sent to me by a family friend,



Recently large demonstrations have taken place across the country protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of illegal immigration. Certain people are angry that the US might protect its own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country and, once here, to stay indefinitely. Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protests.

Let's say I break into your house. Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave. But I say, "I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors; I've done all the things you don't like to do. I'm hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house).

According to the protesters, not only must you let me stay, you must add me to your family's insurance plan, educate my kids, and provide other benefits to me and to my family (my husband will do your yard work because he too is hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in part). If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my right to be there.

It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself. I'm hard-working and honest, um...., except for well, you know.

And what a deal it is for me!! I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of selfishness, prejudice and being an anti-housebreaker. Oh yeah, and I want you to learn my language so you can communicate with me.

Why can't people see how ridiculous this is?! Only in.... America....if you agree, pass it on (in English). Share it if you see the value of it as a good simile. If not, blow it off along with your future Social Security funds.


Here in the states if you call customer service at many companies you must push one for English, what the hell is that crapola.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2006 10:42      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
Hi All----------------------This was sent to me by a family friend,



Recently large demonstrations have taken place across the country protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of illegal immigration. Certain people are angry that the US might protect its own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country and, once here, to stay indefinitely. Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protests.

Let's say I break into your house. Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave. But I say, "I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors; I've done all the things you don't like to do. I'm hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house).

According to the protesters, not only must you let me stay, you must add me to your family's insurance plan, educate my kids, and provide other benefits to me and to my family (my husband will do your yard work because he too is hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in part). If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my right to be there.

It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself. I'm hard-working and honest, um...., except for well, you know.

And what a deal it is for me!! I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of selfishness, prejudice and being an anti-housebreaker. Oh yeah, and I want you to learn my language so you can communicate with me.

Why can't people see how ridiculous this is?! Only in.... America....if you agree, pass it on (in English). Share it if you see the value of it as a good simile. If not, blow it off along with your future Social Security funds.


Here in the states if you call customer service at many companies you must push one for English, what the hell is that crapola.

If you were born poor in mexico, would you want to stay there?

--------------------
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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2006 10:51      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ashitaka______________________Truthfully I was born poor here in Michigan, About the time my brother and I made it into College on Scholerships and grants My dad sobered up and put his skills to work and really did provide for mom and us. I did not know what poor was until I was able to look back at it. And I was there twice, after my exwife cleaned me out it took longer to get back to where I was and still pay child support.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 12 posted September 27, 2006 10:52      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TheMoMan wrote:
Let's say I break into your house. Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave. But I say, "I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors; I've done all the things you don't like to do. I'm hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house).

Well... do you look good in a maid's outfit? We might be able to work something out [Wink]

--------------------
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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2006 11:19      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Steen____________________Go look in the photo gallery and then ask your question would you to see a sixty year old man in a maids uniform, I think not.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Bibo
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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2006 11:44      Profile for Bibo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
How about a 33 yr old from Michigan? (well in 1999 at least) [Razz]
 -

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2006 13:11      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I see one problem with the comparison: it's the difference between personnal and social property. Are you going to throw all homeless people from under the bridges? Are you going to prevent them from accessing the public library? They too cost more to the society than they provide. So if someone is willing and able to integrate to the society, and wasn't caught before establishing him/herself a useful life (someone can say "prescription?"), well too bad, and welcome.

I see it a bit like sending someone to prison because s/he stole a bread when s/he was hungry and too poor to pay for it. Better have her/him sweeps the floor instead. Makes me think about a story I heard: homeless people would commit a petty crime and be sent to prison... at the beginning of winter. This way, they get a roof over their heads, and 3 meals a day. What to do? Continue to send them to jail, or tell them "it won't work anymore, here are some places you can go for a bed and a meal"? So, do you want to throw the illegal immigrants off the borders to have them try again, and again, and again? Wouldn't it be more usefull to give them a social security number, and have them pay taxes on the money they make? And who knows, maybe their grand-daughter will make such a contribution to the society that it will repay all the expenses, with interests and a bonus?

Nobody can take away someone's ability to dream; nothing can stop illegal immigration.

--------------------
Eppur, si muove!

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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2006 14:17      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have to agree with Stereo: the analogy is definitely missing some points. This country isn't my property in the same way that my home is.

I don't see any reason we shouldn't extend some grace towards those who have been willing to work hard, even if they came here illegally to begin with.

--------------------
Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2006 14:37      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Truthfully I was born poor here in Michigan, About the time my brother and I made it into College on Scholerships and grants
And which tribe are you descended from?

People should be free to travel between countries as they wish. The human race is successful because people travel about and interbreed and so on.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2006 14:37      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
Let's say I break into your house. Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave.

Is this a comment on the insurgency in Iraq?

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2006 15:43      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
Ashitaka______________________Truthfully I was born poor here in Michigan, About the time my brother and I made it into College on Scholerships and grants My dad sobered up and put his skills to work and really did provide for mom and us. I did not know what poor was until I was able to look back at it. And I was there twice, after my exwife cleaned me out it took longer to get back to where I was and still pay child support.

If you were born poor, and now have earned yourself a better life, why would you wish it on anybody not to have the same chances you did?

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2006 16:05      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ashitaka_____________________I did not break any laws, I inlisted into the military and I paid into social security. That puts me in a different catagory from the illigals.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2006 18:58      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Anyone who does not see the danger of a lack of border enforcement is just plain ignorant. What come across the border?

This is not and has never been an issue of whether or not we want people to com eto America. WE JUST WANT TO KNOW WHO'S HERE.

We need to seal the borders, set quotas on how many can come, ENFORCE the law and make our country safe.

MS13 is here now because we did not keep them in the place where they belong. Do you wanna extend your guest room to them?

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2006 19:37      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
MoMan, I don't buy this break-in analogy.

However, I do believe that illegal immigration is a problem, and stopping it is key to protecting American security.

The key to stopping the immigration is cutting off the money that attracts them. Companies are diverting large sums of money, of which a significant sum of which is sent out of the country, away from American citizens and legal immigrants and into the hands of illegals.

This is a profitable venture for the companies who hire illegals because they can pay these people fewer wages, and in some cases they don't have to pay them at all.

When I lived in Iowa I witnessed the problem personally, and worked on legislation that would require enforcment of punishment of companies who hire illegals, and additionally require them to pay back wages to any American who had applied for a job at a company who had hired an illegal alien over over them.

Republicans were furious over this,because it would punish the comapnies who were large donors to the Republican campaign coffers and PACs. In Iowa this meant the large meat processing concerns. The problem is so endemic in that industry that if you eat any kind of meat there is a 70% chance you're supporting the hiring of illegal immigrants.

The "get tough" laws that some Republicans are suggesting won't work. The illegals will still come and take their chances, they will be intimidated even more by employers, and when they are arrested they companies won't have to pay the wages. That hurts the local communities that need the wages to support local business. And, it hurts us taxpayers at $20K a prisoner a year. Figure 12-million illegals in this country and that is a bill I don't want to pay. Neither should you.

The real answer is to punish the companies hiring the illegals. Stop the money and you stop the flow of illegals. Stop the IBPs and Tysons, stop the uppity yuppies who hire the maid from Nicaragua, but is really a terrorist from Yemen.

Simply stop the money.

It's disgusting to me that Republicans talk about market economics until those economics affect the people who pay their campaign bills and for their extravagant golf outings to Scotland.

CP

--------------------
Free! Free at last!

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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2006 19:38      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
quote:
Truthfully I was born poor here in Michigan, About the time my brother and I made it into College on Scholerships and grants
And which tribe are you descended from?

People should be free to travel between countries as they wish. The human race is successful because people travel about and interbreed and so on.

Travel between countries? Yes. Permanent immigration? Get in line behind all the other applicants trying to do it legally.

That is my personal beef about illegal immigration. What part of illegal is so hard to grasp?

It is a slap in the face to every immigrant who waits years and jumps through all the legal hoops when someone just walks across a poorly secured border and sets up home.

Other than that I think this country needs many more immigrants from many more cultures. Legally.

The more the merrier and mix it up a bit.

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2006 19:45      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, like many other people that live in the Southwest, I have quite a bit of contact with people that come to the U.S. illegally.

I don't fully agree with MoMan's post, but I don't disagree either. You will never secure the border. There is not enough wall, guards, soldier, minutemen, etc. to accomplish this task.

But I don't believe in giving welfare, or insurance or any special treatment to them either. Nor do I believe that any illegal immigrant should be given total immunity. There are people that are going through the immigration process legally that have waited years. Are they less important because they have done the right things? Do I believe that an illegal immigrant should become a felon? Not at all. But I do think that they should be working towards citizenship.

It took my mother nearly 15 years to go from resident alien status to citizen. But every step of the way she did it according to the law. And I will expect no less from anyone else. I still believe that there should be no free ride.

--------------------
Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted September 27, 2006 21:28      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Um, can I just point something out? Only US citizens and permanent residents can qualify for welfare. No one, legal or illegal, with anything less than a green card, can qualify for US welfare. However, any kid can go to school, no matter how they got here, and anyone can go to the mergency room for medical care, which is where illegal immigrants strain the system. Also, any child born on US soil is a US citizen so the children of undocumented workers can qualify for Medicaid, just as the child of a low-income American family can qualify for Medicaid. Furthermore, illegal immigrants do end up getting a chunk taken out of their paychecks the same as the rest of us do. However, they do not file tax returns. So, assuming Joe Illegal's employer is following the rules, Joe Illegal is in fact paying into the system.

Oh yeah, and learning another language is hard. Especially for an adult. Try it sometime. That said, speaking the language is kinda critical to prospering in any given country, so I think that providing free or very cheap English classes to anyone who moves here and doesn't have some basic proficiency would be a very good thing.

Just thought I'd throw that on the table. It's a complicated issue, so of course there're lots of snappy rhetoric and bullshit soundbites floating around that make things seem clearer than they really are. I for one am in favor of immigration in general, and I think the US immigration process needs to be stream-lined. People are coming here who want to work. Would it be so horrible to get a nice and easy guest-worker program going? Or just use the mechanisms already in place by opening up more H1 and H2-B visas each year? If legal entry is made easy and cheap maybe people won't be so eager to pay coyotes and risk the desert and the border patrol to come here.

--------------------
And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2006 16:14      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
September 27, 2006 14:37
Is this a comment on the insurgency in Iraq?

#include sarcasm.h
[Confused]   How is that commentary on Shiite Muslims using a car bomb to kill a couple dozen Sunni Muslims, then some Sunni Muslims carry out execution-style murders of a couple dozen Shiite Muslims?

RE: Poverty of Mexico

To my knowledge, Mexico has good resources such as forests, petroleum, and natural attractions for tourism. So why would Mexicans leave?

1. The government does not serve the people. Are citizens and business "robbed" by corruption?

2. Criminal organizations are very powerful. Do police keep citizens safe from criminal activity?

3. Overpopulation?

The only "cure" for these kinds of problems is improving the governance of Mexico. Even if population is a problem, wouldn't Mexican social programs such as family planning, construction of housing, and building the industrial economy be a better solution than the current activities.

quote:
September 27, 2006 19:37
Simply stop the money.

If the wages and standard of living were acceptable in Mexico, the flow of money would "stop" because Mexicans wouldn't sneak north for a worse standard of living.

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2006 18:16      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
*chuckles*

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Colonel Panic
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Mo Man,

The way things are going this week, I think we need to build a 700-foot fence around all Republicans.

Then I'd feel safer.

CP

--------------------
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boo
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quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
Hi All----------------------This was sent to me by a family friend,



Recently large demonstrations have taken place across the country protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of illegal immigration. Certain people are angry that the US might protect its own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country and, once here, to stay indefinitely. Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protests.

Let's say I break into your house. Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave. But I say, "I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors; I've done all the things you don't like to do. I'm hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house).

According to the protesters, not only must you let me stay, you must add me to your family's insurance plan, educate my kids, and provide other benefits to me and to my family (my husband will do your yard work because he too is hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in part). If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my right to be there.

It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself. I'm hard-working and honest, um...., except for well, you know.

And what a deal it is for me!! I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of selfishness, prejudice and being an anti-housebreaker. Oh yeah, and I want you to learn my language so you can communicate with me.

Why can't people see how ridiculous this is?! Only in.... America....if you agree, pass it on (in English). Share it if you see the value of it as a good simile. If not, blow it off along with your future Social Security funds.


Here in the states if you call customer service at many companies you must push one for English, what the hell is that crapola.

Great analogy. If they are willing to break the law simply by coming here, why should we expect them to obey it, once they arrive? Let's not forget that a quarter of the prisoners in federal penitentiaries are illegal aliens. And I have known Mexicans to commit some of the most heinous crimes I've ever heard of in my life.

Just come here legally. It's not that much to ask. Oh, and when you get here, learn the language. [Roll Eyes]

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Icon 1 posted October 22, 2006 21:38      Profile for JulioC     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
Let's say I break into your house. Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave.

Is this a comment on the insurgency in Iraq?
[Applause] [Applause] [Applause]

--------------------
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612toApocalypse

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ishy
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Icon 1 posted October 26, 2006 20:43      Profile for ishy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Oh yeah, and learning another language is hard. Especially for an adult. Try it sometime. That said, speaking the language is kinda critical to prospering in any given country, so I think that providing free or very cheap English classes to anyone who moves here and doesn't have some basic proficiency would be a very good thing.

Speaking from an ESL teacher's point of view, most illegal immigrants don't have a lot of interest in learning English. There are a lot of free/volunteer English classes out there. But the people that show up to those are generally legal immigrants. ESL is a very touchy subject right now, as it's near impossible to find a job in it. A lot of counties have removed it from their school systems. Mine passed it through under another bill, and it got overlooked by most voters. A lot of people think that by ignoring the problem it's going to go away, but it's not. I have to say, those from Asian and Russian cultures seem to be more active and interested in English classes than those from Hispanic cultures.

It's actually a lot less difficult to get a temporary VISA than a lot of people make it sound. You pretty much just have to prove employment. But companies who hire a lot of illegals pay in cash, and do not provide benefits or take taxes out because that would point a light on them as hiring illegal immigrants. They also don't have to pay minimum wage.

I just want to note that none of the countries from which many people come to America would ever be generous enough to any American who tried to immigrate to their country in the same way that a lot of people are demanding we be generous to them.

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Icon 1 posted October 26, 2006 21:42      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ishy, I don't want to doubt your experience, but let me offer a possible explanation to the phenomen you expose.

Illegal immigrants are probably afraid of being found and expulsed. So they hide between themselves, and avoid contact with strangers. And they certainly won't enrol in any official program for fear they will be spotted, denounced, and sent back to their country.

From what I can make out of statistics and media stories I've seen, for someone to enroll into programs that will help them find a place in the main stream, it takes two conditions: a regular situation, and access to information that such programs exist (the latter applies to every immigrant).

So unless you advertise your program, stating that none of the idividual information will be passed on to authorities, I highly doubt you'll see any number of illegal immigrants in your classes.

(Sleep is avoiding me tonight, so apologies if I make no sense.)

--------------------
Eppur, si muove!

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Icon 1 posted October 26, 2006 21:54      Profile for ishy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't teach free classes, but I have a lot of friends who do. Most free classes or English clubs don't take any sort of personal information beyond a first name in sensitivity to such issues. Plus, the composition of such classes changes almost weekly. You have a few regular members, but most are infrequent.
Posts: 18 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged


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