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Author Topic: Craigslist Experiment
fs

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Icon 1 posted September 11, 2006 14:28      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So Dman and I were chatting about this a bit...

Basically, this guy RFJason set up a fake personal ad on craigslist, advertising as a submissive woman looking for dominant male sex partner and then posted the responses he received, uncensored and unsanitized, including the pics (some faces and some of a more private nature) and contact information, on the internet.

I don't think anyone thinks RFJason is a nice person, but he has certainly created a lot of discussion about expectations of privacy in online communication and raised awareness about freely handing over personal info to strangers.

Links:
http://www.boingboing.net/2006/09/10/the_seattle_craigsli.html
http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/06/09/11/0539248.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/5335054.stm

RFJason's blog: http://rfjason.livejournal.com/
The actual NSFW page documenting the NSFW responses: NSFW http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/RFJason_CL_Experiment NSFW

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I'm in ur database, makin' moar recordz.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted September 11, 2006 14:58      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My company, and most others have standard privacy signatures at the end of every e-mail sent. Basically, it is legaleese that the information is intended only for the recipient. If the e-mail sent contained such a notice, it was breech of privacy in my view. If the E-mails didn't, they don't seem to, then the E-mail is fair game for public display.

Haven't you ever forwarded a joke E-mail sent to? Did you wonder ever if it was OK?

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted September 11, 2006 15:23      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You have got to be sh*tting me. While a bunch of very stupid people were played well, it is no excuse for such wrongful dissemination of information. It is definitely true that people should be a hell of a lot more careful than they are about giving out personal information, most people responding to ads in CL would do so under the assumption that their information would not be disclosed like this. Don't play the simple game of 'blame the victim,' just because it's the easiest route. 'RFJason' is very clearly in the wrong here.

I'm not sure what your problem is lately, but chill out and have some Toblerone or something, mmkay?

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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maximile

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Icon 1 posted September 11, 2006 15:37      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think:

He didn't do anything illegal. Imagine trying to prosecute that in a US court? It just wouldn't work.

He didn't do anything immoral. Well, maybe he did, but you're going to get so many conflicting views on that that they probably average out to be zero.

And he made some people laugh, and some people cry. I'm firmly of the opinion that if a website makes a thousand people cry and only one person laugh, it's still worthwhile and right to upload it.

That said, being a Something Awful goon, I get off on this sort of thing. I think that there's nothing funnier than some of the things people say when they don't know they're going to have an audience. That's why I found some of the AOL search logs so funny. In fact, it seems as though there are a few parallels to be drawn between these two cases, no?

EDIT: Oops... thought I was being really deep and clever with that AOL reference, but it was in the BBC article.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted September 11, 2006 15:50      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
While he may not have done anything worthy of jail time, it seems likely that RFJason will get sued for a lot of money, and he deserves it.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted September 11, 2006 21:29      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
You have got to be sh*tting me. While a bunch of very stupid people were played well, it is no excuse for such wrongful dissemination of information. It is definitely true that people should be a hell of a lot more careful than they are about giving out personal information, most people responding to ads in CL would do so under the assumption that their information would not be disclosed like this. Don't play the simple game of 'blame the victim,' just because it's the easiest route. 'RFJason' is very clearly in the wrong here.

I'm not sure what your problem is lately, but chill out and have some Toblerone or something, mmkay?

Are you talking to me?

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted September 11, 2006 21:45      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I certainly am.

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted September 12, 2006 00:21      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If RFJason printed all the personal information of respondents interested in a printer he was selling, would you be just as upset with him? Are you upset that he made a moral judgement over these people or the breach of trust with the personal information?

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 12, 2006 00:43      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
If RFJason printed all the personal information of respondents interested in a printer he was selling, would you be just as upset with him?

Damn right I'd be annoyed at him.

It is worse, however, when the information he's releasing could damage the marriages and careers of his victims.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted September 12, 2006 01:38      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
If RFJason printed all the personal information of respondents interested in a printer he was selling, would you be just as upset with him?

Damn right I'd be annoyed at him.


Are you upset with the phone company for publishing your name adress and phone number, and then giving it to everybody in your area?

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 12, 2006 02:18      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
If RFJason printed all the personal information of respondents interested in a printer he was selling, would you be just as upset with him?

Damn right I'd be annoyed at him.


Are you upset with the phone company for publishing your name adress and phone number, and then giving it to everybody in your area?
No, but that's because I _asked_ them to print my details in the book.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted September 12, 2006 04:01      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
Are you upset with the phone company for publishing your name adress and phone number, and then giving it to everybody in your area?

Ash pause and think before you post. That is the silliest argument I have read here in ages. There is no comparison.

What is undoubtedly true though is that the majority of computer users, and more importantly businesses, do not take privacy or security issues nearly seriously enough, laying themselves open to identity theft, and the associated frauds. Here in the UK a recent report suggested that perhaps one in four could be "touched" by ID theft. People dispose of old computers that they do internet banking on, without wiping the HD, are careless with their credit card details, and so on and so on. Unsurprisingly there are considerable criminal industries taking advantage of the fact that most people, while ready to take advantage of the convenience that all these innovations offer, are unwilling and, to be fair, probably unable to understand the complex security implications of these services. I am not even sure if there are any particularly good answers to these serious and growing problems.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted September 12, 2006 04:30      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
Are you upset with the phone company for publishing your name adress and phone number, and then giving it to everybody in your area?

Ash pause and think before you post. That is the silliest argument I have read here in ages. There is no comparison.

You call my argument silly and give no explanations?

My argument is that a persons name, address, and phone number,ect. is personal information, but is not private information. That is unless it is explicitly stated when handing out this information to a person for the first time. Private personal information is things like bank statements, medical histories, and things that have written on them "private". To my knowledge, names, email addresses and home addresses where what was published, not bank statements and medical histories. I do not believe RFJAson published private information, though I seem to be outnumbered here.

What happened was that public information was used against a group of people and everybody stopped and said, hey, that is private information.

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted September 12, 2006 04:37      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ash when you are in a hole......

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 12, 2006 04:47      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
My argument is that a persons name, address, and phone number,ect. is personal information, but is not private information. ... Private personal information is things like bank statements, medical histories, and things that have written on them "private". To my knowledge, names, email addresses and home addresses where what was published, not bank statements and medical histories.

RTFA.
(the last very NSFW link in fs's original posting)

Nudie pictures of people engaged in sex acts counts as 'private' in my book.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted September 12, 2006 05:22      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The information used for the experiment was solicted on a personals board detailing the desire for non-mainstream sexual gratification. The people responding most likely considered the information private and some sort of privacy was expected. Here in the states unless you are within your sub-group the stigma, ostracism and damage to careers can be huge. Right or wrong that is how the usa is. So illegal? No. Wrong? Yep.

That said, people need to understand never ever ever commit to paper, internet, photos or video anything they would not want their parents, bosses, coworkers, children or little dog toto
to see. Some confuse the fact that they are using the internet in their private world with privacy.

I would like to ask some of the young ladies about their exploits on girls gone wild and the like. What happens when you get out into the real world in a real career and the person interviewing you has volumes 1-100 and knows your tatas better than the doctor showing you how to do a breast exam?

This will happen over and over and over until people realize they will need to gaurd their privacy instead of plastering it all over and sending personal info to any/all who ask.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted September 12, 2006 06:21      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
FTFS (/.)
quote:

He took the text and photo from a sexually explicit ad in another area, reposted it to Craigslist Seattle, and waited for the responses to roll in ... '178 responses, with 145 photos of men in various states of undress. Responses include full e-mail addresses (both personal and business addresses), names, and in some cases IM screen names and telephone numbers.'

What part of private do you not see there? One's identity is mostly private until otherwise revealed. Contrary to your dreamworld belief, we do not walk around wearing name tags, and a pouch containing flyers with all our personal details up for the taking. /Some/ of the information you speak of is not _confidential_, but it is information that should be kept 'private,' unless one openly chooses to publicize things. Did these men make some very foolhardy decisions? Absolutely.* Does that mean they deserve this? No, absolutely not.

Besides, in most areas, you're free to put false information in the phonebook. [Smile] It's the cheapest way to get an unlisted number. [Big Grin]

*I mean, really...who the heck sends an e-mail like this from their work address?! That's _STUPID_!

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted September 12, 2006 09:15      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
My argument is that a persons name, address, and phone number,ect. is personal information, but is not private information. That is unless it is explicitly stated when handing out this information to a person for the first time. Private personal information is things like bank statements, medical histories, and things that have written on them "private". To my knowledge, names, email addresses and home addresses where what was published, not bank statements and medical histories. I do not believe RFJAson published private information, though I seem to be outnumbered here.

What happened was that public information was used against a group of people and everybody stopped and said, hey, that is private information.

Except that what was displayed was not only things like addresses and phone numbers. RFJason was posting details of those men's personal sex lives. As DMan said, the men were stupid for indiscriminately sharing that information, but what RFJason did was still completely unethical, and exponentially more idiotic. If he'd been nearly as smart as he seems to think he is, he would have limited his liability by stripping personally identifiable information before posting it.

--------------------
Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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uilleann
Discontinued


Icon 1 posted September 12, 2006 09:41            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
If RFJason printed all the personal information of respondents interested in a printer he was selling, would you be just as upset with him? Are you upset that he made a moral judgement over these people or the breach of trust with the personal information?

Can you say, "spam harvesting"?
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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted September 12, 2006 09:51      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What legal liability?

I agree it was unethical, damaging and cruel that this man did what he did. Repulsive too.

My mistake on not realizing he cut and pasted an ad from somwhere else onto craiglist. I am wondering though on the original site if they had privacy agreements? You know all those agreements and contracts people just click agree on? Was privacy promised and gauranteed? Confidentiality promised in some way shape or form in a contractual sort of way? If not than I dont believe that legally anyone can sue him. If there was something like that in place then the original site may have a chance of a succesful suit.

This is a wonderful example of the conflicts about private vs. public. They should not have sent such personal and revealing items to a faceless person on the internet. To assume something shall remain private is idiocy equal to the guy who posted all this. Sheesh, this is the lesson I am trying to teach my 13 year old daughter.

If it has been written, posted, photographed or documented the assumption of privacy is naive. Never ever assume, unless there is an actual legal statute in place, that your information is private.

I guess what I am trying to say that unless and until there is a law passed that would permit a lawsuit under such circumstances it is the responsibility of the individual to gaurd his privacy as much as possible.

Dont want naked pictures of yourself in an unsavory position floating around the internet? One dont take the pictures and two dont post them anywhere.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted September 12, 2006 10:25      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
YaYa: Hmm...your 13-yr-old daughter, eh?

Maybe you should watch this educational video? [Wink]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPJzkFaVdII

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted September 12, 2006 10:45      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What if a a church group stakes out the local strip club and publishes the photos and names in a local paper in order to close the club. Would that be a breech of privacy or am I way off base again and there is no comparison.

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted September 12, 2006 10:49      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
YaYa: Hmm...your 13-yr-old daughter, eh?

Maybe you should watch this educational video? [Wink]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPJzkFaVdII

Oh dman that was an ouch. You have no idea. But maybe, just maybe, the info will seep into her brain with the humor rather than the nattering from mom. Cause my gosh what the hell do mom's know? Thanks for putting that up for me to see.
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uilleann
Discontinued


Icon 1 posted September 12, 2006 10:53            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ashitaka: Is one to assume the premise in this context that the club is illegal?
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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted September 12, 2006 11:00      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by uilleann:
Ashitaka: Is one to assume the premise in this context that the club is illegal?

No, one is to assume that church goers in america don't like strip clubs in thier cities.

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

Posts: 3089 | From: Switzerland | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged


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