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Author Topic: Judge finds Intelligent Design is not science
AncientOne
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Icon 1 posted December 21, 2005 10:56      Profile for AncientOne     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III has ruled in Kitzmiller v Dover Area School District that the Dover School Board's attempt to require Intelligent Design to be taught in high school biology classes is unconstitutional. In his 139-page decision, Judge Jones found that Intelligent Design is not science, but is instead grounded in theology. Judge Jones stated, "ID at bottom is premised upon a false dichotomy, namely, that to the extent evolutionary theory is discredited, ID is confirmed."

Here is the link to the full decision: http://www.pamd.uscourts.gov/kitzmiller/kitzmiller_342.pdf

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted December 21, 2005 12:20      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The good judge will no doubt be savaged for his 'judicial activism'.

A recent Doonesbury had a nice angle on the issue

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted December 21, 2005 13:31      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:

A recent Doonesbury had a nice angle on the issue

Your average creationist would find that cartoon ignorant of their beliefs, actually. Most creationists, in my experience, accept that there is a certain level of evolution going on (micro-evolution). They believe that, while there is change, the creatures do not change enough to become truly different creatures. In the example from the cartoon, a creationist would not have a problem believing that the TB bacteria have become more drug resistant, since they are still TB bacteria.

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maximile

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Icon 1 posted December 21, 2005 15:51      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Still... I'm glad about this decision. I don't like to see children being taught intelligent design.
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Callipygous
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Icon 13 posted December 21, 2005 15:57      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think it's a real shame as I was hoping to get my Magic Peanut theory taught in schools as a third alternative. The theory is that Earth was a barren planet until 10 years ago when it was colonised and terraformed by aliens, who three years ago all eat the said magic peanut, which wiped their real memories and made them all believe they are humans with false memories etc. I am the only one who forgot to eat the nut.

If ID was accepted as science I see no reason why my theory could not also be taught, hence my great disappointment. [Wink]

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magefile
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Icon 1 posted December 21, 2005 16:22      Profile for magefile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My favorite phrase from the decision: "breathtaking inanity". I think I'm way too opinionated to make a decent judge, but man - I want a job where I can get paid for calling people breathtakingly inane!

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted December 21, 2005 19:13      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:

A recent Doonesbury had a nice angle on the issue

Your average creationist would find that cartoon ignorant of their beliefs, actually. Most creationists, in my experience, accept that there is a certain level of evolution going on (micro-evolution). They believe that, while there is change, the creatures do not change enough to become truly different creatures. In the example from the cartoon, a creationist would not have a problem believing that the TB bacteria have become more drug resistant, since they are still TB bacteria.
Err... that sounds to me like a weak capitulation in the face of overwhelming evidence of evolution in micro-organisms. In short - a cop out. Indeed, the best way to appreciate evolution in action is to study virii and/or bacteria. This creationist get-out means one thing - they know that you can't observe evolution in anything larger as it would take too much time. This begs the question - if you accept that it is a valid theory for micro-organisms, how can you then say that even in the vast expanses of time that have furnished mammalian evolution, for example, it is inappropriate to extrapolate the process?

Basically - how can you concede that it works for bacteria, but then refute that the very same influences are applicable to anything larger? That's nuts. Sorry, but it is.

I guess your answer will be: humans are not bacteria. Your faith forces you to differentiate between species. Sadly, there is no evidence that the processes of reproduction, growth, decay, and mortality operate with less efficiency for us. Perhaps we'd all wish it were otherwise, but in the argument between wishfulness and reason - I know where my money's on.

edit: don't pay any attention to me - I'm just rambling. I don't care what you believe - that's your choice. Peace, everyone. Goo goo g'joob.

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted December 21, 2005 19:41      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
...and another thing - this revolting ID nonsense - can you honestly say it isn't an unsubtle ruse to get around the First Amendment?

And that Pat Robertson makes me puke. Did you hear him the other day? "Oh - you folks in PA better not have any mishaps any time soon - 'cos you just denied God - and you're gonna burn in Hell, like every homosexual and communist... and Catholic... and left-handed person... blah blah..."

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted December 21, 2005 20:26      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
I think it's a real shame as I was hoping to get my Magic Peanut theory taught in schools as a third alternative. The theory is that Earth was a barren planet until 10 years ago when it was colonised and terraformed by aliens, who three years ago all eat the said magic peanut, which wiped their real memories and made them all believe they are humans with false memories etc. I am the only one who forgot to eat the nut.

If ID was accepted as science I see no reason why my theory could not also be taught, hence my great disappointment. [Wink]

Personally, I would have liked to have seen the story of the Flying Spaghetti Monster taught in schools. (venganza.org)

Were /you/ touched by His Great Noodly Appendage?

P.S. Thanks, Peebs! That was my second guess...but it always sounded 'wrong' to me. Folks who know me way too well might understand why. *shrugs*

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted December 21, 2005 20:46      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Close, dman. It is venganza.org.

Though I wouldn't say I'm a pastafarian, I do appreciate the humor.

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magefile
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Icon 1 posted December 21, 2005 21:50      Profile for magefile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What about the Invisible Pink Unicorn (may her hooves never be shod)? We know she is invisible, because we've never seen her, and we have faith that she is indeed pink.

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted December 21, 2005 21:55      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
She's hardly the only one.

I love Wikipedia.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted December 21, 2005 22:04      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The big difference between us and bacteria is generation time, spungo. E. coli does in 20 minutes what a human does in 20 years. Unfortunately, creationists don't seem to get that.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted December 21, 2005 23:29      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by spungo:
Err... that sounds to me like a weak capitulation in the face of overwhelming evidence of evolution in micro-organisms. In short - a cop out. Indeed, the best way to appreciate evolution in action is to study virii and/or bacteria. This creationist get-out means one thing - they know that you can't observe evolution in anything larger as it would take too much time.

I would say it means that there hasn't been enough directly observable evidence of major evolutionary changes to break down their tightly-held belief system. For a lot of people, it takes overwhelming evidence to break down a core belief. It's easier to make exceptions for things that can't be denied.

quote:
Originally posted by spungo:
This begs the question - if you accept that it is a valid theory for micro-organisms, how can you then say that even in the vast expanses of time that have furnished mammalian evolution, for example, it is inappropriate to extrapolate the process?

Keep in mind that, when dealing with the more literal versions of creationism, the world has only been around for about 6,000 years, as they see it. And they will often say that some change in larger organisms can happen, but, again, not changes that would make it a different creature.

quote:
Originally posted by spungo:
Basically - how can you concede that it works for bacteria, but then refute that the very same influences are applicable to anything larger? That's nuts. Sorry, but it is.

I'm trying to figure out the implications of you calling someone "nuts," Spungo. [Wink]

quote:
Originally posted by spungo:
...and another thing - this revolting ID nonsense - can you honestly say it isn't an unsubtle ruse to get around the First Amendment?

In essence, though they generally don't think of it that way. Most just don't understand the political implications of what they are attempting.

quote:
Originally posted by spungo:
And that Pat Robertson makes me puke. Did you hear him the other day? "Oh - you folks in PA better not have any mishaps any time soon - 'cos you just denied God - and you're gonna burn in Hell, like every homosexual and communist... and Catholic... and left-handed person... blah blah..."

Ignore the asshole. I believe he only says that kind of bullcrap because it gets him news coverage.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted December 21, 2005 23:43      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
Keep in mind that, when dealing with the more literal versions of creationism, the world has only been around for about 6,000 years, as they see it. And they will often say that some change in larger organisms can happen, but, again, not changes that would make it a different creature.

Actually, not true.

Creationists believe in evolution at a rate far in excess of what most Darwinists would accept, they just don't like to call it Evolution. In order to make the silly boat-trip story sound feasible, creationists postulate a small number of 'kinds' of animal on the Ark, which then became the millions of species we see today. So Lions, Tigers, Pumas, etc are all descended from a single pair of 'Big Cats' who stepped off Noahs Ark a mere 5K years ago, and then turned into quite different species with dizzying speed.

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AncientOne
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Icon 1 posted December 22, 2005 05:23      Profile for AncientOne     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Here is a quote from an article in today's
Washington Post that shows just how frightening some ID advocates can be:

"This decision is a poster child for a half-century secularist reign of terror that's coming to a rapid end with Justice Roberts and soon-to-be Justice Alito," said Richard Land, who is president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission and is a political ally of White House adviser Karl Rove. "This was an extremely injudicious judge who went way, way beyond his boundaries -- if he had any eyes on advancing up the judicial ladder, he just sawed off the bottom rung."

Note the political threats against Judge Jones.

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Astronomer Jedi
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Icon 12 posted December 22, 2005 08:34      Profile for Astronomer Jedi   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This may get me in trouble with someone else here (she knows who she is [Wink] ), but finally another step in the right direction.

Things are different in Australia in that it isn't widely taught and despite the Federal Minister for Education saying there may be a place for ID's inclusion, the Western Australian State School Teachers Union has firmly stated it will not be taught in public schools.

Personally, even though I think it's utter rubbish, I have no problem with ID being taught in Religious Education. I have a problem when it's taught as a supposed science and compared to a rigorously defined and tested theory like evolution.

I've never really cared much about studying biology, but having recently read The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins, I now have a new appreciation for evolutionary biology. The discussions of his evolution simulations are very interesting.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted December 22, 2005 08:50      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by AncientOne:
Here is a quote from an article in today's
Washington Post that shows just how frightening some ID advocates can be:

"This decision is a poster child for a half-century secularist reign of terror that's coming to a rapid end with Justice Roberts and soon-to-be Justice Alito," said Richard Land, who is president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission and is a political ally of White House adviser Karl Rove. "This was an extremely injudicious judge who went way, way beyond his boundaries -- if he had any eyes on advancing up the judicial ladder, he just sawed off the bottom rung."

Note the political threats against Judge Jones.

You scare too easily.

Southern Baptists have taken to wielding what political power they have like a bludgeon (and overestimating that power, too). However, I haven't seen them gain much success in national politics.

quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
Keep in mind that, when dealing with the more literal versions of creationism, the world has only been around for about 6,000 years, as they see it. And they will often say that some change in larger organisms can happen, but, again, not changes that would make it a different creature.

Actually, not true.

Creationists believe in evolution at a rate far in excess of what most Darwinists would accept, they just don't like to call it Evolution. In order to make the silly boat-trip story sound feasible, creationists postulate a small number of 'kinds' of animal on the Ark, which then became the millions of species we see today. So Lions, Tigers, Pumas, etc are all descended from a single pair of 'Big Cats' who stepped off Noahs Ark a mere 5K years ago, and then turned into quite different species with dizzying speed.

Interesting. I hadn't heard quite that version of creationism before, but it fits within the overall creationism stance that the world's history has happened a lot faster than is possible under true evolution and geology.

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted December 22, 2005 09:13      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TMBWITW,PB:
She's hardly the only one.

I love Wikipedia.

So do I. Taken from the page dedicated to the IPU:

quote:
This PNG file features a pink unicorn, but it has an alpha channel that makes the image completely transparent, thus approximating the Invisible Pink Unicorn


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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted December 22, 2005 09:28      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
Keep in mind that, when dealing with the more literal versions of creationism, the world has only been around for about 6,000 years, as they see it. And they will often say that some change in larger organisms can happen, but, again, not changes that would make it a different creature.

Actually, not true.

Creationists believe in evolution at a rate far in excess of what most Darwinists would accept, they just don't like to call it Evolution. In order to make the silly boat-trip story sound feasible, creationists postulate a small number of 'kinds' of animal on the Ark, which then became the millions of species we see today. So Lions, Tigers, Pumas, etc are all descended from a single pair of 'Big Cats' who stepped off Noahs Ark a mere 5K years ago, and then turned into quite different species with dizzying speed.

The much better way to make the "silly boat trip" feasible is to translate it correctly. The word usually translated as "earth" (as in "water covered the...") is more properly translated as "land", which doesn't necessarily indicate the entire planet, but could mean just one country. A country being flooded for a few months is well within the realm of possibility, especially given the size of ancient city-states.

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Ugh, MightyClub
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Icon 1 posted December 22, 2005 11:08      Profile for Ugh, MightyClub     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
For the sake of argument, I also submit that it is possible that a pair of each of all the known animals in Peeb's hypothetical flooded country could fit on a large boat.

That said, I personally consider the bible and all similar texts to be allegories originally intended to comfort and/or control the peoples of ancient cultures.

I'll stop there, because my feelings on religion, "Intelligent Design", etc. are complicated and may be considered blasphemous to many. I don't want to start a flame war in my favorite community [ohwell]

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted December 22, 2005 11:51      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TMBWITW,PB:
The much better way to make the "silly boat trip" feasible is to translate it correctly. The word usually translated as "earth" (as in "water covered the...") is more properly translated as "land", which doesn't necessarily indicate the entire planet, but could mean just one country. A country being flooded for a few months is well within the realm of possibility, especially given the size of ancient city-states.

Another interesting possibility...
They've found the remains of drowned settlements on the floor of the Black Sea, apparently it was dry land until comparitively recently. It's possible that some geological event could have let the Mediterranean in fairly suddenly, water levels would have risen quickly, but not so quickly that people living there didn't have time to gather their possessions and flee. This also fits with Mount Ararat being mentioned as the place the survivors came to safety.

The same event could have been the origin of the 'cast out of the Garden of Eden' story...

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted December 22, 2005 13:11      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Just about every mythology I've read has a flood story in there somewhere. Which, given that humans were around to see the end of the Ice Age and the subsequent rise in sea levels, makes sense. It is thought that the Biblical flood story originated with a flooding of the Bosphorus (sp?) thousands of years ago.

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Icon 1 posted December 22, 2005 19:10      Profile for ChemGeek     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm not sure intelligent design should be taught in science classes, but I think teachers should mention that there are other views on the subject. Let the kids decide if they want to learn more about it or not.

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Icon 2 posted December 22, 2005 20:11      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Biggest problem I have with folks who deny they are descended from monkeys, is that they are the ones most likely to be descended from their own sisters.

A close examination of Genesis and creationism, or it's ID iteration, reveals these teachings are nothing more than an attempt to teach the "Genesis-incest" story as a proper procreation. Sadly, statistics show that the Bible Belt has a shockingly high rate of incest. And indeed, abortion in cases of incest is fought against violently in Bible Belt areas.

I believe that there should be a total ban on all forms of teaching that promotes incest. The causal link between creationism and inbreeding is simply too high to ignore.

CP

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