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Author Topic: Students suspended for off-campus activity
Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted May 15, 2003 13:30      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Slurp.....You not making any friends here.....I suggest you walk away from this one.....probably an apology is in order as well.

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Slurpy
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Icon 1 posted May 15, 2003 13:33      Profile for Slurpy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No! I'm right [cry baby] [cry baby] [cry baby] ! [Wink]

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I must first reveal my personal bias in this discussion, since I worship at the 'First Church of PDF Really Sucks.'
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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted May 15, 2003 13:41      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh..........You are one of 'those'

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Slurpy
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Icon 1 posted May 15, 2003 13:43      Profile for Slurpy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is all I'm trying to say. For the crime committed, under these particular circumstances, the state should be prosecuting these kids.

The school punishing them for an off-campus activity sets bad precedents. The only reason I can see for expelling students for something they did off campus is to keep them from students who might be frightened having them around; and if they did something bad enough to frighten everyone, they should be going to jail anyway, so it's a moot point!

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I must first reveal my personal bias in this discussion, since I worship at the 'First Church of PDF Really Sucks.'
-Bruce Tognazzini
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Slurpy
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Icon 1 posted May 15, 2003 13:48      Profile for Slurpy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
Oh..........You are one of 'those'

A democrat? [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
I must first reveal my personal bias in this discussion, since I worship at the 'First Church of PDF Really Sucks.'
-Bruce Tognazzini
http://thegeekgroup.org
Geek ID# 1162

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 15, 2003 14:14      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
THey don't have democrats and republicans in Canada. Broaden your mind.

I was s enior in HS when Columbine happened too, and it could have just as easily been my high school that got shot up. A lot of things can happen around corners and in places where the security guards don't go. I know my HS had several such knooks and crannies. It only takes a second to smack someone. If you think bullying doesn't or didn't happen, you're fooling yourself. The sociopaths who do it aren't going to be stopped by the threat of a suspension. For them the rush is worth the price.

I never plotted revenge. I learned quickly that fighting back only made it worse. Sure, I coulda been like Ender and killed them, but this was 20th century reality, not scifi. Killing a bully wasn't going to "reward" me with a trip to Battle School. So I weathered it out. They outgrew beating on me and grew into abusing drugs. As for me, I'm graduating from college with a BS in biochemistry and possibly latin honors(won't know until tomorrow)on Sunday. So, in the end, I'm getting my revenge.

If you think someone's going to be able to go back to a peachy life after getting manure shoved in their mouth, think again. One time things can and do stick with you. And who is to say the perpetrators won't do it again to someone else?

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted May 15, 2003 15:13      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If the school did nothing Slurpy, they would be giving out the message that this is not a serious matter, ( which appears to be your position too ), and then this grand "tradition" would carry on.

My grandfather went to a famous English private school ( Winchester ) where new boys were tied up and roasted in front of a fire. While he was there one died as a result. What jolly japes! But that was round about 1900, and I would hope that we order things rather better now. Or maybe we should return to those "good old days" and institute degree courses in Torture & Sadism.

What an absurd thing to be arguing about in 2003.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Slurpy
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Icon 1 posted May 15, 2003 22:16      Profile for Slurpy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
If the school did nothing Slurpy, they would be giving out the message that this is not a serious matter, ( which appears to be your position too

quote:
Originally posted by Slurpy:
I'm not saying that what the girls did was right; I think they should face serious criminal charges;

Right. . .

Xanthine, I didn't know Cap't Vic was from Canada, and it was a joke, anyway. . .

Honestly, at my school, we didn't have bullies. All the kids who liked to fight got expelled. Even today, four years after I graduated, they have no security guards, and only the four cameras they installed 10 years ago when the school was vandalized. We really didn't have a problem with bullies; I guess that could be due to the small size, only 1300 kids. . .

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I must first reveal my personal bias in this discussion, since I worship at the 'First Church of PDF Really Sucks.'
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neotatsu
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Icon 1 posted May 15, 2003 23:43      Profile for neotatsu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think what you're all missing once again is the fact that at the beginning of the year each and every student signed a piece of paper that had a specific article about how the school could suspend or expel them for hazing or harrasment on or off school property... Not to mention hazing is illegal in most states now...

[devil wand]

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DrPepper
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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2003 00:53      Profile for DrPepper     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I straight up don't believe you. I went to a smaller school than that and there was definatly bullying. There are ALWAYS bullies in schools, unless you went to some special school with a zero tolerance policy where telling on bullies was considered cool. In high school a lot of the time people don't know who the bullies are because nobody wants to admit that they are getting the crap kicked out of them at lunch time or that they hide out in the bathroom before running home after school. High school is one big power struggle as far as popularity goes and bullies feed off that and know that they won't get caught if they scare the kid bad enough.
quote:
Originally posted by Slurpy:
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
If the school did nothing Slurpy, they would be giving out the message that this is not a serious matter, ( which appears to be your position too

quote:
Originally posted by Slurpy:
I'm not saying that what the girls did was right; I think they should face serious criminal charges;

Right. . .

Xanthine, I didn't know Cap't Vic was from Canada, and it was a joke, anyway. . .

Honestly, at my school, we didn't have bullies. All the kids who liked to fight got expelled. Even today, four years after I graduated, they have no security guards, and only the four cameras they installed 10 years ago when the school was vandalized. We really didn't have a problem with bullies; I guess that could be due to the small size, only 1300 kids. . .


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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2003 01:22      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
First Slurpy a little lesson in child psychology.

What follows happens to most children as they grow up, though of course not to all. From the age of about 8 upwards they start forming friendship groups, or gangs. From age 11 to about 15/16 as they become less emotionally dependent on their parents, these friendship groups become correspondingly increasingly important to them. You can see how important by the way most children at that age will suppress their own individuality, and try not to do anything which marks them out from their chosen group. They all wear the same fashions, pretend to like the same music, and have the same attitudes and interests. Any group defines itself as much by the people it excludes and the people the group decides it dislikes, as by those it allows to be a part of it. So this means that bullying was, is, and always shall be endemic in schools for children of that age. With boys it tends to be more physical, whereas girls usually have greater expertise in psychological torture. From 15/16 as individual relationships become more important, unless there is no law and order, groups usually become less so.

But as I said before, it simply is not possible to eradicate bullying at this age. That does not mean that it is unimportant or should be ignored. Let it run out of control and stuff such as this hazing will always occur. Children at that age though individually charming, collectively are animals.

If you say you were not aware of any bullying at your school, you were either the luckiest boy in the universe, or have the awareness and sensitivity of a rock, or were one of those dishing it out.

Read the novel "The Lord of the Flies" by William Golding ( a schoolmaster when he wrote it) to learn more. If you are interested.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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neotatsu
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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2003 01:31      Profile for neotatsu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quoting Callipygous:
If you say you were not aware of any bullying at your school, you were either the luckiest boy in the universe, or have the awareness and sensitivity of a rock, or were one of those dishing it out.
Hahahah, I loved that! hahahah

Read the novel "The Lord of the Flies" by William Golding ( a schoolmaster when he wrote it) to learn more. If you are interested.
Ah, pretty good book... I read it for my chosen reading book in 10th grade because it was on the list of banned books at our school [Big Grin] [evil]

[devil wand]

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I'm curious... About what, you ask? EVERYTHING!

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cheezi git
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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2003 01:41      Profile for cheezi git     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by neotatsu:


Ah, pretty good book... I read it for my chosen reading book in 10th grade because it was on the list of banned books at our school [Big Grin] [evil]

[devil wand]

i agree neo, a fantastic book. but where do you live? iran? i mean, how come it was banned? there's no sex, no swearing, and less violence than an average film...

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there were so many stains on the road. squashed miss mitten-shaped stains in the universe. squashed frog-shaped stains in the universe. squashed crows that tried to eat the squashed frog-shaped stains in the universe. squashed dogs...

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neotatsu
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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2003 02:49      Profile for neotatsu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by cheezi git:
quote:
Originally posted by neotatsu:


Ah, pretty good book... I read it for my chosen reading book in 10th grade because it was on the list of banned books at our school [Big Grin] [evil]

[devil wand]

i agree neo, a fantastic book. but where do you live? iran? i mean, how come it was banned? there's no sex, no swearing, and less violence than an average film...
I dunno, why is oral sex illegal in several states? I've pretty much stopped questioning such things, and just chalking them up to beauracratic stupidity [shake head] ...

[devil wand]

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I'm curious... About what, you ask? EVERYTHING!

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Slurpy
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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2003 02:49      Profile for Slurpy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
Let it run out of control and stuff such as this hazing will always occur.

I think that no matter how hard a governing body locks down, things like this are going to happen. . . It's human nature to destroy things, unfortunately.
quote:

If you say you were not aware of any bullying at your school, you were either the luckiest boy in the universe, or have the awareness and sensitivity of a rock, or were one of those dishing it out.

Definitely the sensitivity of a rock. [Big Grin] Maybe the ketamine the school board puts in the water helps, too.

quote:
Read the novel "The Lord of the Flies" by William Golding ( a schoolmaster when he wrote it) to learn more. If you are interested.
I own it, I just haven't read it yet. It's in my pile of "To Read" books, including Don Quixote, Huck Finn, The Bridge over the River Kwai, The Picture of Dorian Grey, Neuromancer, and C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity.

neotatsu, the school in question did not necessarily have a non-hazing clause (although it most likely did), and the students did not necessarily sign it. As I said above, all four years in HS, I never once signed it. I didn't like giving the school powers like that over me. I always was a troublemaker, though, as this post seems to indicate [Wink] .

And even if these students did sign it, they weren't (legal) adults when they did, so I don't see how they can legally be held accountable for it. The cause of many major problems in American society is the legal distinction between legal adults and under-eighteen people.

Why do I have the feeling I'm opening up a whole new can of worms with that statement?

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I must first reveal my personal bias in this discussion, since I worship at the 'First Church of PDF Really Sucks.'
-Bruce Tognazzini
http://thegeekgroup.org
Geek ID# 1162

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neotatsu
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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2003 03:04      Profile for neotatsu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Slurpy:
neotatsu, the school in question did not necessarily have a non-hazing clause (although it most likely did), and the students did not necessarily sign it. As I said above, all four years in HS, I never once signed it. I didn't like giving the school powers like that over me. I always was a troublemaker, though, as this post seems to indicate [Wink] .

And even if these students did sign it, they weren't (legal) adults when they did, so I don't see how they can legally be held accountable for it. The cause of many major problems in American society is the legal distinction between legal adults and under-eighteen people.

Why do I have the feeling I'm opening up a whole new can of worms with that statement?

The principal read the clause in the paper they signed in the press conference when he announced their suspension..

Also, the people doing the hazing were seniors, so some of them could have been 18 when they signed it (not likely, but whatever...) It's not a legaly binding contract no, but in most states, after 16 years old you can legally sign such agreements, otherwise it would be impossible for the government to charge any taxes on wages you earn at a job, and for that matter it'd be damn difficult to get a job... Also, you have to sign such agreements at the doctor's office, and most of the 'school rules' paperwork I've gotten requires parent signature too, which makes your signature legally binding...

[devil wand]

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nekomatic
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Icon 11 posted May 16, 2003 03:23      Profile for nekomatic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
My grandfather went to a famous English private school ( Winchester ) where new boys were tied up and roasted in front of a fire. While he was there one died as a result. What jolly japes!

Blinkin' flip, they kept that one quiet from us! [Embarrassed] Are you completely sure he wasn't winding you up just the tiniest bit though? <four-yorkshiremen>You were lucky - when I were a lad, they used t'roast t'new lads in front't'fire until we got used to it!</four-yorkshiremen>

Looking at it the other way round though: if these kids are probably going inside for a stretch, isn't it rather academic whether or not they get expelled from a school they won't be attending anyway? [Confused]

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perfectstormy

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Icon 12 posted May 16, 2003 07:09      Profile for perfectstormy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by nekomatic:
Looking at it the other way round though: if these kids are probably going inside for a stretch, isn't it rather academic whether or not they get expelled from a school they won't be attending anyway? [Confused]

Maybe it's because the last ringleader ran the group from prison. [evil]
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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2003 10:03      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Slurpy,

Principals and teachers are responsible for the well being of the student body. It would have been irresponsible for Mr. Riggle to let those students back in the school.

I think you should realize that people who criminally violate others, physically or otherwise, deserve to have priviliges taken from them. They have proven themselves a danger to other students, and no longer deserve to attend Glenbrook North High School. These students will be allowed to graduate, they just have to finish their studies at a school where they send kids who do these things. This means they are actually being treated better than they treated the students they hurt, since the ones who were bullied will probably have to finish after the year is over because they will have to heal first.

If the school would not prevent these bullies from returning to the schools grounds I would be terrified and outraged if I were a student or the parent of a student that attends school there. I certainly would be making noise at the school board meetings so loud that people in Austrailia would hear it.

Furthermore, If I were the parent of a student that was hazed in that fashion, I would be looking to file a civil suit, against the parents if the bullies are underage, for medical costs, and pain and suffering damages on top of what ever the justice system does to them. Oh and count me as another geek that was bullied K-12.

{EDIT} By the way, why should it matter if the school has a no hazing clause or not and whether the students sign it or not. Brutally against others in a community should not be tolerated period. If the hazing would have been commited against a non student, I would hope they would still be expelled, though it probably wouldn't happen. Your right to swing your fist around stops when it comes in contact with my nose. In other words, people are allowed rights and priviliges, but when they act criminally, those rights and priviliges need to be taken from them.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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Slurpy
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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2003 16:25      Profile for Slurpy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by CrawGator:
I think you should realize that people who criminally violate others, physically or otherwise, deserve to have priviliges taken from them.

The way the American government is written right now, the only privilege that should be taken from them for these acts is the privilege to be not be jailed.
quote:
These students will be allowed to graduate, they just have to finish their studies at a school where they send kids who do these things.
Assuming that they don't go to juvenile detention or a state penitentiary, they're just going to attend a different school in the area, not some special school for "one time bad kids."
quote:
This means they are actually being treated better than they treated the students they hurt, since the ones who were bullied will probably have to finish after the year is over because they will have to heal first.
No way in hell. The worst injury was a broken ankle. Except for the broken ankle girl, everyone was out of the hospital within 10 hours. No one is going to be held back for missing 2 or 3 days, and the girl who has a broken ankle has a legitimate medical excuse, and I suspect the school would make a special case for her, even if she didn't.

quote:
If the school would not prevent these bullies from returning to the schools grounds I would be terrified and outraged if I were a student or the parent of a student that attends school there. I certainly would be making noise at the school board meetings so loud that people in Austrailia would hear it.
The only reason everyone is getting so upset about this incident is because it is all over the media. From what everyone here has said, kids get beat up all the time, and pretty badly, too. So why focus on this particular incident? "Because TV told me to." Right.

quote:
Furthermore, If I were the parent of a student that was hazed in that fashion, I would be looking to file a civil suit, against the parents if the bullies are underage, for medical costs, and pain and suffering damages on top of what ever the justice system does to them.
I think every one of us here would do that.
quote:
In other words, people are allowed rights and priviliges, but when they act criminally, those rights and priviliges need to be taken from them.
My whole point with this, which I am stating AGAIN, is that it is the STATE'S duty to take these rights away, not whoever decides that they have a connection to these activities. Whether or not the students signed a no-hazing clause, I still feel this is in the state's jurisdiction, due to the severity of the crimes, and the fact that it was done off of school property, not a school sponsored event, and it was not during school hours. The students should be punished according to state laws, and spend some time in jail. That'll straighten them out a lot quicker than being suspended ("Oh no, a VACATION!"), and possible expulsion.

--------------------
I must first reveal my personal bias in this discussion, since I worship at the 'First Church of PDF Really Sucks.'
-Bruce Tognazzini
http://thegeekgroup.org
Geek ID# 1162

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2003 16:49      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The worst injury was a broken ankle??? What about the psychological scars?? These may last years or a life time.

The Colonel said it best Slurpy.....You sir, are a MORON.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2003 18:56      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You know, one of the goriest things I've seen was a compound ankle fracture. Something about the shiny white bone coming through the skin irked me for a few hours.
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Slurpy
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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2003 20:02      Profile for Slurpy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
The worst injury was a broken ankle??? What about the psychological scars?? These may last years or a life time.

The Colonel said it best Slurpy.....You sir, are a MORON.

We were discussing injuries that would keep the students from attending class, STUPIDHEAD [Wink]

Wow, I've never been flamed like this before. It's like being back in high school [Happytears]

--------------------
I must first reveal my personal bias in this discussion, since I worship at the 'First Church of PDF Really Sucks.'
-Bruce Tognazzini
http://thegeekgroup.org
Geek ID# 1162

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evilbibo
Discontinued


Icon 1 posted May 16, 2003 21:04            Edit/Delete Post 
What about the feces they were forced to eat? Does that not count?

quote:
Originally posted by Slurpy:
]We were discussing injuries that would keep the students from attending class, STUPIDHEAD [Wink]

Wow, I've never been flamed like this before. It's like being back in high school [Happytears]


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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 16, 2003 21:14      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think we need to stop feeding the troll. He's looking rather satiated.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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