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Author Topic: Vegetarian
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2003 19:19      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I usually stay out of these sorts of discussions because, frankly, it would be hard for me to care less about what other people eat (unless it looked good going by in a restaurant and I want to order it too, that is). Gonna make an exception today.

evilbibo:
I think you should re-read what Callipygous wrote. He did say that sharing food has "a very deep social and spiritual meaning", but this in no way translates to not eating meat causes you to go to hell. Further, so what if he thinks being a vegetarian is stupid? Most religious people think being an athiest is stupid and most athiests think the same thing about religion. People are entitled to their beliefs and screaming at them for having them does nobody any good at all.

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snupy
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Icon 13 posted April 29, 2003 20:24      Profile for snupy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>>I do not eat much meat, and usually one or two meals each week that I cook are vegetarian. But to go vegan would need a joy denying Calvinistic attitude that I just could not contemplate. Why would a painter completely deny himself the use one colour as a matter of principal?


Oh, yeah. TOTALLY the same thing.

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2003 20:28      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by snupy:
>>I do not eat much meat, and usually one or two meals each week that I cook are vegetarian. But to go vegan would need a joy denying Calvinistic attitude that I just could not contemplate. Why would a painter completely deny himself the use one colour as a matter of principal?


Oh, yeah. TOTALLY the same thing.

It is if you consider cooking an art. I thought the metaphor was apt.
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snupy
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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2003 20:32      Profile for snupy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When comparing "matters of principle", a colour and a living creature aren't the same. That's what I meant.

Wow-G, do you realize this is the first time we've ever disagreed, I think?

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2003 20:55      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by snupy:
When comparing "matters of principle", a colour and a living creature aren't the same.

Hmm, I think you're starting to get influenced by our neighbors across the pond [Wink] .

Regarding the subject at hand, I think I will stay out of it, and just make offtopic comments [Razz] . I do eat meat, but can respect the ideas of vegetarians, though I do find veganism to be a bit hard to swallow.

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snupy
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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2003 21:13      Profile for snupy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Damn! You're right, Dman! I'm a traitor!!!

oh, well-blame it on cheezi, spungo, skylar and Allan. [Razz]

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2003 21:24      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Perish the thought - Dubya's practically in bed with Blair [Wink] . I just found it a bit humourous. Uilleann never ceases to amaze with the fact that they can say "I am sat," in lieu of "I am sitting." I'm sure that would tick off my friend from the DR who has said that "nearly everything you say in English is an exception." Oh well.

/me posts this while sat at his computer [Wink] .

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evilbibo
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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2003 21:25            Edit/Delete Post 
What would be even harder/interesting than vegan is frutarian where you only eat from plants that bear fruit. Root vegetables, lettuce, cabbage etc.. are not part of the diet.

From the web site :

"Fortunately, eating doesn't have to be a matter of "us or them". Fruit is a "given" food, offered by the plant so that we can spread its seeds. Together with nuts, beans and grains, fruit provides all the sustenance a body needs without requiring the death, wounding or maiming of any other lifeform. "

That is too extreme for me personally.

quote:
............ I do eat meat, but can respect the ideas of vegetarians, though I do find veganism to be a bit hard to swallow. [/QB]

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2003 21:26      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow. We usually agree on things, but on this we are wildly divergent. (welcome back from your vacation by the way, and happy Orthodox Easter)

quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
Cooking and eating well is one of the best and most fundamental pleasures of life, and you can enjoy it for your entire life, which is not always true of other comforts.

I agree, and I enjoy eating healthy foods. I have been eating vegetarian for the last two days (though I have not completely eliminated dairy and eggs yet) and I enjoy it. I find that when I have more of a reason than "It's bad for me" to not eat a lot of steak or ice cream or something I can stay away from it. And those are real trigger foods for my overeating. And now that I eat more vegetables I feel better and have a lot more variety in my diet.
quote:
Sharing food has also a very deep social and spiritual meaning.
My pastor has preached on that very subject.
quote:
It is not accidental that a ritual commemorating the sharing of food lies at the heart of Christianity. The kitchen also is pretty central to the Jewish religion. Sharing a meal makes a deep bond with friends and family. Being able to put a pot on the kitchen table, which everyone eats from binds people together. Eating different food around the table does the opposite, so of course your fiance will do as you do.
I disagree slightly there. I think that eating together is a very social and binding occasion, but I don't neccesarily think that everyone has to eat the same thing for that to happen. How many families do you know where one of the kids decides they won't eat anything but peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and only drink apple juice? Or kids that won't eat anything green, or will only eat purple stuff? Happens all the time. But they still eat together and are still a family. Okay I laboured that point a little but I think you get it.
quote:
When someone with a restricted diet come to eat with us I always attempt to cook a meal everyone can eat.
That's very considerate of you.
quote:
For the same reason I would think it mildly insulting to go to a friend's house and refuse to eat their food ( unless it is a risk to my health ).
Every time I have heard of someone having a guest over and they find out that person is vegetarian their response is embarrasment, not anger or insult. The reaction is pretty similar to finding out that your guest is allergic to nuts and can't eat the cookies you baked. In those types of situations is is the considerate thing for the guest to let their hosts know before hand, rather than springing it on them at the last minute.

quote:
But to go vegan would need a joy denying Calvinistic attitude that I just could not contemplate.
I am Calvinist, and I don't see any relevance whatsoever in that statement.
quote:

This is going against what the majority of you are saying, but I honestly think that being a vegetarian, let alone a vegan, is completely stupid.

I'm glad you realize that your arguments against it don't say anything about my arguments for it, but you were logical up to this point, I don't see why you would soil your argument by bringing puerile insults into it. I like you, and generally respect your opinion. Let's stay friends after this, okay? [Cool]
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snupy
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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2003 21:45      Profile for snupy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
Perish the thought - Dubya's practically in bed with Blair [Wink] . I just found it a bit humourous. Uilleann never ceases to amaze with the fact that they can say "I am sat," in lieu of "I am sitting." I'm sure that would tick off my friend from the DR who has said that "nearly everything you say in English is an exception." Oh well.

/me posts this while sat at his computer [Wink] .

D'oh! I forgot-U is one of "them" also. I've only just chatted with him recently, when the English
way of spelling things was already embedded.

Humourous, huh? [Wink]

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addiew
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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2003 21:58      Profile for addiew   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was vegitarian till I started college and since have pretty much cut back down to some white meat here and there but really try to avoid me at when possible.
Now that I read those facts maybe I will go back solely to vegetarianism again..

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CyberGoddess
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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2003 22:23      Profile for CyberGoddess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am not a vegetarian and I could never be one. That being said, I do not eat a lot of meat, and I rarely eat red meat at all. This is for health reasons. My father had triple bypass when he was 36. I was 8. My family pretty much cut out red meat except for the occasional burger, steak, or pot of chili or spaghetti. We ate mostly chicken and fish. Because of this, if I eat too much red meat, I will get sick. It's like my body views it as a toxin. I can only have it in small doses.

I also choose to limit my intake of chicken and fish as well. I balance my meals with small portions of meat and eat a lot of grains and vegetables (preferably organic). I eat healthy, but I still eat meat. Since I adopted this diet, I've felt better than ever.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2003 23:42      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:

This is going against what the majority of you are saying, but I honestly think that being a vegetarian, let alone a vegan, is completely stupid.

Stupid? Try stupidly stubborn, at least for me. Vegetarianism is a preference that my mother and father never could persuade/beat out of me. I do not like the taste of flesh. I never have, I never will. I tried and I failed to be "normal".

I have found that the best way to cope with being a guest is a) notify the host in advance and b) be very polite. Also be ready to take some flak because there are lots of other people who think you're abnormal. The mockery gets even worse when they find out I have a very bad reaction to alcohol so I don't drink either. "What? You wanna live forever or something?" is the usual response. [Frown]

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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evilbibo
Discontinued


Icon 13 posted April 30, 2003 00:02            Edit/Delete Post 
Actually he was not.


.............Not only did Hitler eat meat, he went so far as to outlaw organizations that advocated vegetarianism, and harshly rebuked all proposals to ease Germany?s food shortages that involved reductions in meat consumption......

Entire article here or just google for more sources

http://www.foodrevolution.org/askjohn/47.htm


quote:
Originally posted by GMx:
quote:
Originally posted by evilbibo:

BTW many scholars believe Jesus was a vegetarian.

So was Hitler. [Wink]

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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted April 30, 2003 02:40            Edit/Delete Post 
dragonman97: Oh, and don't forget y'all can put on a jumper when it gets a bit chilly... ;)

Aside: why is our spelling addictive, but not US spelling? Personally, I find 'ou' in words cuter than plain 'o', and the same goes with 's' instead of 'z' (e.g. "specialise"), and the rest of our spelling. I will, though, sometimes, use US spelling just to be polite, or even accidentally. I do use both regularly, though, for things like REALbasic/HTML/CSS etc. I recall trying to use BBC BASIC (UK) and QBasic (US) at the same time and got confused by all the spelling switches (mostly colo(u)r). Same as the spelling 'gray' in enumerated conio.h colours in DOS C was a pain :)

Now, is this just me, or do any other Brits use US 'program' for computer programme, and UK 'programme' for stuff on TV, giving a nice distinction in spelling?


But yes, vegetarianism - staying on topic here. For the duration of the period that I live at my parents' house, I will postpone this decision (as we eat plenty of meat). However, I guess that eventually I will have to draw a conclusion, on whether I feel it is valid to continue doing so (when and if I go live someplace else). Hmm... I don't know what I'd go for - depends what method I'd choose when it comes to meals, for one.

I don't look forwards to the future...

Though I do recall SG saying to me once, E&OE, that despite being vegetarian, ~"if it was a choice between her and the fluffy bunny, the fluffy bunny would absolutely be dinner". I found that very cute, but then I would.

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cheezi git
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Icon 1 posted April 30, 2003 02:56      Profile for cheezi git     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
don't forget that eating meat is wrapped up in concepts of wealth because for most of human history only the rich could afford regular doses of flesh, and vegetarianism in most traditionally meat-eating cultures is seen as a sign of poverty, indeed it is a unwelcome necessity.

it is only a short step from that to radicalism, and a rejection of society's values and mores; this goes some way to explain why veggies have always been viewed with suspicion, and why some of the most radical thinkers chose vegetarianism to differentiate themselves from the norm.

some people are not comfortable with others who do not accept all the society's customs: hence some meat eaters feel, in a bizarre repressed way, threatened by veggies.

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted April 30, 2003 03:05      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by snupy:
Humourous, huh? [Wink]

That is most interestatively amuserating. I, too, feel to be influencated by another person of a differing personage - I have been listening to too many of Dubya's oratations - and I'm beginning to suspect that he has subliminiminally effected me.

Goddamit, Coal-in - where'dya hide my yoyo? ...

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perfectstormy

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Icon 12 posted April 30, 2003 03:40      Profile for perfectstormy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
"What? You wanna live forever or something?" is the usual response. [Frown]

Just say you prefer to die of something interesting. [Smile]
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Icon 10 posted April 30, 2003 03:47      Profile for TORDONOFFON     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Personally I am an Omnivore. I LIKE being top O the food chain. I do think most Americans eat much too much meat though and try not to. Meat is more like a spice or condiment. I like to eat chicken because I HATE chickens [ Roosters in particular ] and do not feel at all bad about killing them. Cows however are kinda cute. But then I am an Omnivore. I keep Kosher when it comes to Ham but bacon is fine.
My best X girlfriend was a vegimite for several years and has said she was never really healthy the entire time. She just didn't realize until she started in on meat again that her body really wanted it.
As to the health issues from all the crap added/fed to animals. Ignorance is bliss. So hand me that rodent dropping infested hot dog. LA LA LA I can't hear you ! [ I read The Jungle even. ] I don't plan on living forever anyway. Ask yourself would you rather die healthy or enjoy your time ? TORD

PS. I would date a smoker before a Vegan.

PPS. I think its more like many VEGAN scholars believe Jesus was a vegetarian [Big Grin]

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snupy
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Icon 1 posted April 30, 2003 04:21      Profile for snupy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by spungo:
quote:
Originally posted by snupy:
Humourous, huh? [Wink]

That is most interestatively amuserating. I, too, feel to be influencated by another person of a differing personage - I have been listening to too many of Dubya's oratations - and I'm beginning to suspect that he has subliminiminally effected me.

Goddamit, Coal-in - where'dya hide my yoyo? ...

Rolling on the floor lawfing my arse off. [Wink]

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted April 30, 2003 06:08      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by TMBWITW,PB:
I am Calvinist, and I don't see any relevance whatsoever in that statement. I'm glad you realize that your arguments against it don't say anything about my arguments for it, but you were logical up to this point, I don't see why you would soil your argument by bringing puerile insults into it. I like you, and generally respect your opinion. Let's stay friends after this, okay? [Cool]

My sincere apologies for using Calvinist as a term of abuse. It was unthinking, insensitive and extremely ignorant behaviour. I have the highest respect for you personally and a disagreement such as this is trivial in comparison. I think from what you said, you feel the same way, after all friends should be people who can argue passionately without bearing grudges.

I guess I posted on this because I was a little irritated by the slightly smug moral tone of all the congratulations you received at the beginning of this thread, so I will also admit to a slight element of trollery in my post. But I do find the moral case for vegetarianism as opposed to a healthy diet that includes a modest amount of meat unconvincing. So when I weigh that against the pleasure lost and the social awkwardness that having an unneccessarily restricted diet induces, I opt to stay omnivore. The only argument I find convincing is Xanthine's, for whom ( like me ), it is ultimately a matter of taste.

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evilbibo
Discontinued


Icon 1 posted April 30, 2003 07:34            Edit/Delete Post 
Why is it so hard for you to accept that some people do not want to kill a living creature for food?

And how am I losing pleasure by not eating meat?

I love food and I love to cook and my waist shows it [Wink]

To me an unneccessarily restricted diet would be not eating things I want to eat, such as cutting down on my sugar and starch intake. So if someone asks me what I'm giving up for lent (I don't give up anything) I always tell them "meat" and get the response "but you're a vegetarian" to that I reply "exactly"

Again you are basically calling us idiots for our lifestyle choice that is not in line with your beliefs.

If someone has different relegious views than yourself to you accept it or tell them they are stupid for believing what they do?

I'm not saying being a vegetarian is what YOU should be because I am, I choose to be a vegetarian because it is what I feel is the right choice for MYSELF.


quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
[I guess I posted on this because I was a little irritated by the slightly smug moral tone of all the congratulations you received at the beginning of this thread, so I will also admit to a slight element of trollery in my post. But I do find the moral case for vegetarianism as opposed to a healthy diet that includes a modest amount of meat unconvincing. So when I weigh that against the pleasure lost and the social awkwardness that having an unneccessarily restricted diet induces, I opt to stay omnivore. The only argument I find convincing is Xanthine's, for whom ( like me ), it is ultimately a matter of taste. [/QB]


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spungo
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Icon 1 posted April 30, 2003 08:27      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If God had meant for Man to be vegetarian he wouldn't have made little fluffy cutesie baby lambs taste so goddam good, would he? [Razz]

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Icon 1 posted April 30, 2003 10:03      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, but you only lick the lambs spungo. Chopping up and serving for dinner you save for cats.
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GMx

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Icon 1 posted April 30, 2003 11:29      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by evilbibo:
Actually he was not.


.............Not only did Hitler eat meat, he went so far as to outlaw organizations that advocated vegetarianism, and harshly rebuked all proposals to ease Germany?s food shortages that involved reductions in meat consumption......

Entire article here or just google for more sources

http://www.foodrevolution.org/askjohn/47.htm



Sorry I believed the propaganda. [Frown] Does that mean he wasn't a one-testicled, coprophilic, amphetamine addicted masochist with an unhealthy interest in his niece Gelli too? [Big Grin]
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