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Author Topic: Panther!
GMx

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
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Icon 14 posted June 21, 2003 14:50      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Somebody's already leaked screenshots of Panther. I bet Steve's having a fit. What do you think of the new look? Take a look here.
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Snaggy

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Icon 6 posted June 21, 2003 15:37      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
heh, i knew if I bought the Label X haxie, labels would be in Panther. [ohwell]

nothing really shocking though, imho, except maybe le window d' Exposť...

I WANT PILES!

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted June 21, 2003 16:38      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How do you like that brushed metal finder? [shake head]
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Tut-an-Geek

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Icon 1 posted June 21, 2003 17:06      Profile for Tut-an-Geek   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
GMx: I'm rather hoping it's an optional thing [Smile]
If not, I guarantee it will be by 1020 Pacific time monday [Smile]

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Lex
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Icon 1 posted June 21, 2003 20:18      Profile for Lex   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I can do without brushed metal, but it doesn't bother me (I look at safari and ichat enough as it is).

Here's hoping for a free upgrade (even if it does cost $19.95. Again.)

I'd like piles too [Smile]

--------------------
Your conviction that there is a monster under the bed would be a mere eccentricity if you weren't so heavily armed and it was your own bed.

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GMx

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
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Icon 1 posted June 21, 2003 20:55      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Lex:
Here's hoping for a free upgrade (even if it does cost $19.95. Again.)

Don't bet the farm on it. [ohwell]
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GeekAvenger
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Icon 2 posted June 21, 2003 21:09      Profile for GeekAvenger   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bah!!!

I see my campaign to have the name of the next version changed to dog-cow had no effect.... [Frown] [Frown] [Mad] [Mad]

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Geekier Than Thou. I think academically so therefore I'm a geek?

Ah the wonders of the crowd.

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TouchStone
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Icon 10 posted June 22, 2003 14:39      Profile for TouchStone     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Getting very exicted! [Big Grin] With this and new PowerMacs. It should be a very entertaining Stevenote. I'm going to the Apple store to watch it. Anyone else going?
Posts: 81 | From: Behind a coffee cup | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zwilnik

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Icon 1 posted June 23, 2003 12:56      Profile for Zwilnik   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just tried the iChatAV Beta and did a voice chat from here in the UK to the States. Totally clear, no glitches, connected first time. Excellent! if this conference calls too (we're going to test that in a few minutes) it'll be perfect for us multi-site shareware developers!

--------------------
The Universe is entirely made up of elements.
The most important of which is the element of surprise.

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Zwilnik

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Icon 1 posted June 23, 2003 14:37      Profile for Zwilnik   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Update... No conference calling, but you can run the voice chat window minimised (even under the screensaver). It might be interesting to see if it's practical to run it in the background under a LAN game as a 1 on 1 voice system.

--------------------
The Universe is entirely made up of elements.
The most important of which is the element of surprise.

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Lex
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Icon 1 posted June 23, 2003 15:15      Profile for Lex   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Looks like no free upgrade again. Oh well, this time I'll just have to remember that educational discount thingy. Blah, paid full price last time.

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Your conviction that there is a monster under the bed would be a mere eccentricity if you weren't so heavily armed and it was your own bed.

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uilleann
Discontinued


Icon 1 posted June 24, 2003 00:34            Edit/Delete Post 
Here's a good one:
Right now, I have 34 open folder windows in the Finder. Not counting anything else (like iCab, ShadowIRC, SimpleText, etc), that's quite a few windows. Now, someone care to assure me that Exposé isn't just going to pop a cog if I tried using it here? ;-)

I'm still waiting for a system of window management that lets me use lots of windows at once :P

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- - e r i k - -
Geek Larva
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Icon 1 posted June 26, 2003 06:59      Profile for - - e r i k - -   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by uilleann:
Here's a good one:
Right now, I have 34 open folder windows in the Finder. Not counting anything else (like iCab, ShadowIRC, SimpleText, etc), that's quite a few windows. Now, someone care to assure me that Exposé isn't just going to pop a cog if I tried using it here? ;-)

I'm still waiting for a system of window management that lets me use lots of windows at once [Razz]

Well, you gave me a great idea on what to try out next:

Exposť Extreme!

This and other facinating tidbits and a boatload of screenshots in my Panther-thread.

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Icon 1 posted June 26, 2003 07:01      Profile for - - e r i k - -   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh yeah, and that's 36 screenwide columnview windows plus a whole lot of others that happened to be on my screen. Enjoy [Smile]

Oh yeah, and the windows are both navigable by arrowkeys and tab when in exposť-mode [Smile]

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Tyler Durden
Highlie
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Icon 1 posted June 26, 2003 09:26      Profile for Tyler Durden     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bah, I'm one of those people whose F9 function in Exposť doesn't work. Also, Toast is dead. But other than that, everything works beautifully. The Apple DVD Player got a nice facelift.

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that's it sir, you're leaving...the crackle of pig skin...the dust and the screaming...the yuppies networking
the panic...the vomit...the panic...the vomit
god loves his children...god loves his children...yeah

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uilleann
Discontinued


Icon 1 posted June 26, 2003 14:57            Edit/Delete Post 
- - erik - -:
The scary thing is that I could probably differentiate windows like that. Then again, all yours are the same height - I have some pretty tall windows here, so how does that affect it?
Besides, I'm now at 47 Finder windows (yes, I'm leaving some open on purpose now), 6 BBEdit, 6 AIM, 2 iCab, 3 IRC (two hidden), and I have 24 running programs (not counting daemons). All in 144 Mb physical RAM (288 Mb virtual) under 9.1.

I suppose I should go around closing everything like a good little boy, but I do naturally work with a lot of open windows (despite Apple's Expos&ecute; page implying 9 users only run one program at once because we're so terrified of crashes - hell, ffs, just press Cmd-S before switching apps - I rarely lose work from colateral damage in crashes - just all my changed browser cookies). And my uptime is about 7-8 days with all this running. About the same as how long a Jaguar user I know can go before having to reboot X :)

Mac OS X will never appeal to me until, for example, I can just make windows go away. I don't mean minimise (can you imagine all my windows minimised to the Dock? nor can I...) but just gone. Hidden, basically. Such that I can then right-click the application's Dock icon to show them.

The real problem I have with minimise is that I am used to the taskbar concept - one icon per window - click to show, click to hide. I'll click a Dock icon to restore the window to glance at it, and click again to hide it. Only the icon is gone, so I end up clicking something else, and a few more before I become conscious of what I'm doing.

I may move to X, but only once it's window-management UI becomes usable for those who run more than about two programs at once, instead of trying to give me a headache. No-one yet seems to make a UI good enough - regular taskbars are similarly useless.

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- - e r i k - -
Geek Larva
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Icon 1 posted June 27, 2003 04:55      Profile for - - e r i k - -   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by uilleann:
- - erik - -:
The scary thing is that I could probably differentiate windows like that. Then again, all yours are the same height - I have some pretty tall windows here, so how does that affect it?

It doesn't matter what size your windows are. The typical finder window are much smaller than the windows I demonstrated here, they are almost a full 1400 pixels wide every single one of them. If they were 1400 pixels tall they would just stack up that way. And look at that browser window. That took almost the full 900 horizontal pixels of my screen.

If you were looking for a spatial finder, this definitly solves it.

quote:
Originally posted by uilleann:

Besides, I'm now at 47 Finder windows (yes, I'm leaving some open on purpose now), 6 BBEdit, 6 AIM, 2 iCab, 3 IRC (two hidden), and I have 24 running programs (not counting daemons). All in 144 Mb physical RAM (288 Mb virtual) under 9.1.

Well 144 Mb ain't nowhere near enough for OS X. Don't kid yourself here, OS X eats RAM for breakfast. I'm used to running it in 512-1256 MB RAM. Given enough RAM Mac OS X will stay responsive even if you have all the software on your computer open at once (including Photoshop, FCP, Dreamweaver, Classic, etc)

quote:
Originally posted by uilleann:
Mac OS X will never appeal to me until, for example, I can just make windows go away. I don't mean minimise (can you imagine all my windows minimised to the Dock? nor can I...) but just gone. Hidden, basically. Such that I can then right-click the application's Dock icon to show them.

Uhm, yeah. This is in OS X. Command-H is a universal Hide. Alt-command-H is hide other applications.

quote:
Originally posted by uilleann:
I may move to X, but only once it's window-management UI becomes usable for those who run more than about two programs at once, instead of trying to give me a headache. No-one yet seems to make a UI good enough - regular taskbars are similarly useless.

Look, I've run Mac OS X in a professional production enviroment for print, web and video for two years now. I never ever close applications (you don't need to in X, an App only uses resources (RAM & CPU) when it needs it). I don't even close them when I'm done working with them. Heck, I left VPC idle for a week before I needed it again, it appeared instantly. Right now I have System Preferences, Safari, iTunes (always playing music), Outlook (in classic), QXP (in Classic), Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat, Kung-Tunes (for uploading my songs to my weblog), Kung-Log (weblog-editor), TN3270X (terminal emulator for our IBM Mainframe), Word, Excel, Dreamweaver MX, VPC, Toast, Preview, Default Folder X, a nice demon that gives me visual feedback and keyboard controll over iTunes, iComic (downloads comics from the web automaticly) and iChat. My system load right now is 2.02, 1.48, 1.26. The system doesn't become unresponsive unless it hits 5-7.

And yet I manage all these windows. And this is with Jaguar. I just hide apps and windows that I don't need. I'm super-speedy and super-productive and I predict Exposť will help this even further.

Mac OS 9 is dead. Time to get over it.

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GMx

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Icon 12 posted June 27, 2003 08:25      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You have to understand-uillean is Amish. [Wink]
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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted June 27, 2003 18:00            Edit/Delete Post 
Amish? No - Martian. It's why no-one ever has a clue what the fuck I'm on about.

Well 144 Mb ain't nowhere near enough for OS X
Huh? I'm not using X - what's that got to do with anything? I'm referring to 9.

Uhm, yeah. This is in OS X. Command-H is a universal Hide. Alt-command-H is hide other applications.
Eh? I didn't say applications, I said windows. I want true per-window management, whereas Mac OS has gone from per-app window management in 9 and older to some odd brand of both (you can interleave apps' windows, but still can't hide a single window). Exposé will let you switch between windows, but doesn't let you make the ones you're not using disappear. I don't need that, but anyone I show a screenshot of my Mac to, is horrified at the utter mess my Mac's screen in - the sheer quantity of open windows I have visible at any time. I will never escape this mess using X, as X won't let me hide windows which I am not using, without resorting to the revolting minimise system. I guess people will still puke at me whatever I use, so if I'm supposed to be doing this for improved opinion of me from others (I see no other good reason until this Mac actually dies), then it's sure not going to change until the OS UI is fixed.

When I started using 7.1, I adored it - fell in love with it. I've not done much more than curse X - it never held the same appeal to me.

Mac OS 9 is dead. Time to get over it.
Ever seen a corpse? Try exhuming a corpse, and sit it at a desk, and ask it to do some work. Now try and do the work yourself in 9. Tell me which one of those two is dead.

Now, I did watch the keynote yesterday afternoon, and I cannot deny that I wasn't impressed, but Steve's reality distortion field aside, blowing a small fortune on a new Mac at this point in my life (a bad time to do so) because a) you say so (wtf?) and b) I am supposed to believe I'd adore X when in fact I dislike using it a lot, doesn't sound like a good deal to me. Sure, I could get used to X, but I don't want to spend all that money unless I believe it to be great. And I don't, yet.

And after all, the main reasons I feel pressured to do so are people like GMx (who won't shut up) and whizzy stuff. But this is just about buying happiness - that I could put a price tag on happiness, that somehow I could get a material object that could solve everything. But come on, this is the computing industry - even if I bought the best of everything, it would soon be obsolete, so there needs to be room for acceptance for the value of older hardware and software, and Mac users are especially awful at this. I don't think I will ever keep up and stay up - I cannot stand it - yet I can be just as productive in my view without doing so. Too Cool To Quit wanted a .gsm file (never heard of it) turned into a .wav - turns out all I needed to do was pop it into SoundApp (conversion to AIFF) and then BladeEnc (MP3 encode). No sign of X anywhere (hell, SoundApp is 9-only).

*shrugs* it's not the cute simplistic little world you like to think it is.

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted June 27, 2003 19:15      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just kidding u, you don't have to take it so seriously. [Frown] Panther does hide all open windows. It's on this page toward the bottom ("Here's Looking at You Kid").
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uilleann
Discontinued


Icon 1 posted June 27, 2003 21:12            Edit/Delete Post 
Either my Martian is bad today, or you are being brainwashed by Steve. I don't mean F11 (which is a Win+M rip-off anyhow), but hiding unused windows of various applications. If I were to minimise all my unused windows in X, the Dock would shunt all my app icons left (and shrink them) such that none of my icons were where they were before - great for muscle memory etc. I'd then get a whole load of miniscule icons on the right that I can't tell apart and that switch places each time I restore and re-minimise. Does my head in.

I also want to know what Apple are smoking with docked favourite folders - when are they going to implement a nifty facility (like I did suggest to them ffs) for setting the icon of such folders for convenient identification? Yes, one can go trawl the net for the right icon and then set it in the Finder (in my case, I just draw my own in 9, for A-Dock), but a nice set of categorised pre-set folder icons would be excellent.

Mac OS X isn't evil, just still something in its infancy as far as the interface goes, and right now I am not in the business of splashing out on a whole new machine and OS in case I like it, and in case I can satifactorily replace all my apps, etc. Once I have a job (after some semblance of order enters my life - won't know exactly where anything's headed until my results come, end of July) and I know where things are headed, I'll blow a load of money on a new Mac. Right know, this Mac has its good side and its flaws, and Mac OS X has its good side and its flaws - why spend money exchanging the two?

I just wish that progress didn't mean so much bloat - case in point - Linux, while a PITA, ran pretty well on this. Did need more RAM, but it wasn't slow for any reason besides excessive paging (and was pretty responsive during paging too). Doesn't mean I liked it, but it proves that the key fixes that 9 needs are perfectly viable at 200 MHz, and maybe 128 MB RAM for KDE 2 to be happy (9.1 is happy in 64, but I run too many apps at once for that really).

That Apple are both a hardware and software company is probably the cause - they really want to sell Macs, so it's not in their interest to care about older machines. If Mac OS and Macs were built by separate companies, the OS making side wouldn't want to lose sales to bloated and slow code. Of course, that's only a fraction of the whole issue, but still.

Just a side that people rich enough (typical Mac users anyhow) to keep buying new machines whenever needed won't really see or understand because, oh, sure, let's just get a whole new Mac because.... because....I can.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted June 27, 2003 21:41      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by uilleann:
[snip]
Just a side that people rich enough (typical Mac users anyhow) to keep buying new machines whenever needed won't really see or understand because, oh, sure, let's just get a whole new Mac because.... because....I can.

Argh...and some of us are not rich enough to buy a proper Mac. As much as I like the iBook or eMac, I find it hard to buy them when I know there are supremely more powerful PowerMac/Books. The rate of obsolesence with these things is sick, and I just can't afford it. I'm composing this on my Thinkpad Celery 350, with 256 MB of RAM, and it's doing just fine. Of course, that would have to be due to the fact that it's running Debian GNU/Linux [Big Grin] . If I'm going to replace this thing, I'm sure not going to buy a G3 laptop when they will be coming out with G5 laptops in the next year or so, as insanely expensive as they will be. I've come to like Apple computers more with the advent of OS X, given that I'm a *nix geek, and I would love to buy one, but I just can't justify the cost. My server/workstation here is a P3/667, 512 MB RAM, 120 GB HD (80+40), and it's still running strong, with uptime reporting:
00:43:36 up 176 days, 2:19, 3 users, load average: 2.99, 2.97, 2.91
These are numbers I can't complain about, and I think I totally lost the point that I came into this post with :-/.
/me is distracted by mp3s playing over the network (from server->laptop via HTTP).

What I really want from Apple, but will probably never live to see is an Apple eMac grade tower, with expandability. Hell, sell me the thing without a screen, and put as much CPU power into it as you can, while keeping the cost down. Yes, I want a US$1000 Apple tower PC. Can you here me, Steve? Make one of these things, and I will buy it as soon as it's built, and so will a lot of *nix (& PC-oriented) geeks like me. I think he is afraid of producing a cheaper tower, running the risk of diluting the prestigious brand of the "Power tower," and so he will sell you one of two things - an insanely expensive tower, or a wimpier, cutesy machine (this is not to say that I don't love the eMac I've got at work [Wink] ).

It's 12:40, this post is crap, and I'm going to lie down and read a book - good night.

P.S./Edit: Another thread reminded me of the Mac that I completely forgot about & dismissed - the iMac, which I consider to me a toy more than anything nowadays.

--------------------
There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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uilleann
Discontinued


Icon 1 posted June 27, 2003 23:49            Edit/Delete Post 
Another thing to bear in mind is that I run some Carbon applications here, and while they're a bit laggy, I put that down to the API itself, which is laggy by nature as it's API emulation. Thus, even modern apps run on this. It's a big, fat, bloated OS preventing me running apps that can and by all means do run at this speed - very premature hardware obsolescence. The other related issue is metal windows, and all the vile code used to draw them - bogs QuickTime player down horribly here, and iTunes (both are Classic apps). Normal windows draw fine, so why not use them? Hell, even the the unoptimised, abandoned skinning system left over from 8.5 way outperforms metal windows.

All the rich pretty people who love all things cute and cuddly and soft and fluffy will be happy with Apple - they get the cuddly OS they like (look at fast user switching - prime example). I just have a computer I want to use and I want to see some signs of efficiency - I hold a more pragmatic view of CPU usage than Apple now take.

I'd be a candidate for Linux - I might end up there one day. Trouble is, Mac OS classic has so much better UI consistency and interoperability of GUI apps (like the Drag Manager).

In the end, put it this way: I can accept any OS, and use it, but it doesn't mean that any will ever be where I belong - in the way that other people are at home with one OS or another. It's how life works for me - I'm out of phase. But from my perspective, I see so much unutilised potential in the world. And right now, I am personally utilising the potential stored in a StarMax clone that's pretty much junk to the modern Mac world and to Mac users' eyes.

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- - e r i k - -
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Icon 2 posted June 28, 2003 03:28      Profile for - - e r i k - -   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow. You whine a lot don't you uileann?

First of all, I'm not rich. I go to work every day earning a living, I have money problems as much as the next guy. That said, no I'm not poor either.

I prioritize. What do I want from my mac? Well, I want to:

1) Be productive
2) Enjoy computing

I've been using macs since before the dark ages of 96-99 and guess what. I've pretty much enjoyed the ride. The first operating exitement was when I first installed 7.1 going from 6.0.7. There were pretty colors and a lot of fancy things that made my life so much easier. It made 6.0.7 look positively antiquated in contrast. But yeah, it was a whole lot slower back then (notice history repeating here?).

Instead of whining about how fast 6.0.7 were and the advantage it were to have control panels in a single window rather than having them strewn out in a folder ( [Wink] ) I relished in all the new possibilities it gave me.

And that's happened in a big way now. Mac OS X is fully mature with Jaguar and even moreso Panther. The user interface is great once you've overcome your old habits (old dogs can learn new tricks). It's a truly modern OS and I never feel like having to defend my choice of platform anymore. People respect and admire the beauty and power of it. And yes, Mac OS 9 looks absolutely antiquated in comparison.

At work I have to deal with both. Some stragglers still use OS 9 for QuarkXPress and distiller. They ALWAYS complain about their machines crashing, corrupting files and the bongs of their macs can be heard all too often.

The open / save dialogs are horrid, with a tiny little window for seeing files and having to double-click folders etc. (yes, modern file dialogs were an improvement (but alas, QXP uses the old ones still), mac os x 10.0-2 were a step back again). The navigation is akward and you have a lot of screen clutter.

Mac OS 9 has been dead for me for a long time now, and all development has stopped. Except for nostalgia and old games there is no need for it anymore. Heck, even the bastards at Quark has finally got on board.

Things change. Eventually you have to replace your TV, your fridge, your washer and yes, even your computer. It has nothing to about being rich, it has to do with the laws of nature, entropy and evolution.

Being a mac user is the greatest thing ever right now. I can't remember there ever being such a positive buzz in media and among computer geeks. And that's all thanks to Mac OS X (and in extension Steve Jobs).

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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted June 28, 2003 07:44            Edit/Delete Post 
Thing is, I've had so many people drill into my head over X over the last couple of years that I have become positively sick of it. If they were content to let me run what I please, and perchance made the effort to even remember I ran 9 (instead of assuming X all the time), I'd be far more content and not touchy on the matter. I don't really care what anyone else runs, as long as it's not causing them undue grief, and Mac OS 9, for me, isn't that bad at all - works well for me.

My frustration is far less with X vs 9, than with the social issues involved with computing. But I need to accept more readily what I already know, and that I'm not meant to be involved with that. It's just what a 'Net addiction does to you, I guess.

That said, it still doesn't mean that I see a lot of untapped potential in X's UI etc - quite a bit being things that other OSes get right and Apple's not paying a scrap of attention to. And as far as trying to rectify such things - I'd be better off trying to work with the open source world, as at least there people might pay attention...

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