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Author Topic: is illegal always bad?
cheezi git
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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2002 09:29      Profile for cheezi git     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
- should we always obey laws?
- are laws always fair and just?
- what laws do you not agree with?
- should we always obey laws, even those we disagree with, just for the better cohesion of society?

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snupy
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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2002 09:47      Profile for snupy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Personally, I don't think pot should be illegal. It's far less dangerous than alcohol. How often do you hear of people being killed by a stoned driver? Alcohol makes people aggressive and irritable also, thus more prone to violence. Who's a pothead gonna harm? I mean, you may see the occasional melee over the last bag of chips, but come on-mostly they stay at home, get mellow, and don't harm anyone. [Wink]

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2002 10:16      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Originally posted by cheezi git:
- should we always obey laws? unless they conflict with your religion/moral code yes.

- are laws always fair and just?
of course not. we have biased people writing the laws and biased people passing them. and human nature is selfish. even when we do things for other people we are really looking out for our interests, but the nices people usually are looking out for themselves in the long term not short.

- what laws do you not agree with?
you'll probably think this is really weird, but i don't think that prostitution should be illegal. i mean, we have all these people saying how we shouldn't legislate morality and that laws are for the protection of people, but prostitution doesn't hurt anyone. and if a person can go out on the streets and sleep with as many people as they want for free and legally, why shouldn't they get some money out of it too? think of the money the government could get just from licensing, and then a tax on it, it would be HUGE.

- should we always obey laws, even those we disagree with, just for the better cohesion of society?
if the disagreement is strong enough (blacks should be able to ride the bus vs. i want to drive 80mph instead of 65) than you shouldn't obey the law, but i do reserve that for strong cases or religious/moral conflicts.

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2002 10:49      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by cheezi git:
- should we always obey laws?
- are laws always fair and just?
- what laws do you not agree with?
- should we always obey laws, even those we disagree with, just for the better cohesion of society?

-It depends, if it involves harming others by disobeying them, no.
-No, because people aren't always fair and just.
-I would like to see pot legalized.
-Again, it depends. Traffic laws are made so that people won't get hurt, but people always disobey them, sometimes to disasterous results. Unjust laws can be repealed, as the U.S. Constitutional amendment prohibiting alcohol was. They found that it was causing more crime than protecting people. That's why I think pot should be legal.

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cheezi git
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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2002 10:53      Profile for cheezi git     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
should laws be there to protect us from ourselves, and encourage correct morality (whatever that is), or should they be a general consensus.

what about sharia law. it gets a really bad press in the west, but who really knows what it is about?

also, the law and the judiciary are different. a corrupt legal system can twist and pervert a sensible set of laws.

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Spiderman

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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2002 10:59      Profile for Spiderman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
- should we always obey laws?
No
- are laws always fair and just?
No
- what laws do you not agree with?
Speed Limits
- should we always obey laws, even those we disagree with, just for the better cohesion of society?
Depends

Seriously though, I guess it depends where you are from...In the US, I guess it would be wise to obey the laws as in doing so, we also help to preserve the freedoms that we have. I have no opinions though about European laws or other countries.

-SM

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2002 11:05      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by cheezi git:
should laws be there to protect us from ourselves, and encourage correct morality (whatever that is), or should they be a general consensus.

what about sharia law. it gets a really bad press in the west, but who really knows what it is about?

also, the law and the judiciary are different. a corrupt legal system can twist and pervert a sensible set of laws.

Sometimes I think people need to be protected from themselves, but then if somebody's stupid enough, they're not going to obey a law that's for their own good.
You're right about sharia law, I have no idea what it is.
Yes, the law and judiciary are two different things. One good example of our supreme court perverting the law was when they decided back in the late 1800's that corporations were to be considered individuals.

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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2002 11:21      Profile for Alien Investor     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Pretty basic questions.

I agree with the law when it protects people from force and fraud, and I don't agree with laws that prohibit acts between consenting adults.

In the USA, the #1 set of laws that I hate are the anti-drug laws. #2 is the Social Security system. The Patriot Act, et al, are way up in the top 10.

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iballoondesign
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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2002 13:41      Profile for iballoondesign   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If everybody never follow the law. What happen in future?

WAR ZONE!

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snupy
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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2002 15:28      Profile for snupy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by GMx:
quote:
Originally posted by cheezi git:
- should we always obey laws?
- are laws always fair and just?
- what laws do you not agree with?
- should we always obey laws, even those we disagree with, just for the better cohesion of society?

-It depends, if it involves harming others by disobeying them, no.
-No, because people aren't always fair and just.
-I would like to see pot legalized.
-Again, it depends. Traffic laws are made so that people won't get hurt, but people always disobey them, sometimes to disasterous results. Unjust laws can be repealed, as the U.S. Constitutional amendment prohibiting alcohol was. They found that it was causing more crime than protecting people. That's why I think pot should be legal.

Yes. It's disturbing how those horrible potheads have sent the crime rate soaring. [Roll Eyes]

Come on, GMx-what are they gonna do-hit people over the head with their bongs?? [Big Grin]

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2002 15:39      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by snupy:
Personally, I don't think pot should be illegal. It's far less dangerous than alcohol. How often do you hear of people being killed by a stoned driver? Alcohol makes people aggressive and irritable also, thus more prone to violence. Who's a pothead gonna harm? I mean, you may see the occasional melee over the last bag of chips, but come on-mostly they stay at home, get mellow, and don't harm anyone. [Wink]

I'm with Snup on the reefer thing....I don't smoke much any more but in my 20's I could have given Bob Marley a run for the money.

As far as the law (and religion), I have my own, which I will pass on to my son....don't hurt people, or take what isn't yours...Deep down inside if you were raised by decent people you will know right from wrong when faced with either.

I personally think there are way to many laws and rules imposed on us by the powers that be.

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Lillian
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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2002 15:52      Profile for Lillian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What about in some states where it is illegal to ave oral sex with your spouse.....you don't suppose people actually live by that law do you? I could never live there [Big Grin]
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GMx

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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2002 16:33      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by snupy:
Yes. It's disturbing how those horrible potheads have sent the crime rate soaring. [Roll Eyes]

Come on, GMx-what are they gonna do-hit people over the head with their bongs?? [Big Grin]

Well, I shouldn't have made a direct comparison, but there is some violent crime associated with the people that sell it.
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neotatsu
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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2002 18:07      Profile for neotatsu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Lillian:
What about in some states where it is illegal to ave oral sex with your spouse.....you don't suppose people actually live by that law do you? I could never live there [Big Grin]

In Michigan it's illegal for any male to masturbate. If your caught you go to jail or get a hefty fine.

In Washington state, any man caught having sex with a virgin female is sentenced to jail time and a hefty fine, and yes, that includes married couples, if your wife is a virgin you can't legally have sex with her in this state.

(I've got lots and lots more, but I'll post them later, I'm in a hurry)

Would you obey those laws? I'll agree that some laws sound stupid, but still should be followed, but there are a *lot* of *REALLY* stupid laws still on the books that should *NEVER* have existed in the first place.

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2002 18:49      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah.....and it is illegal to have a goatee in the state of Massachusetts (or how ever you spell it).....

Oh, BTW....Lillian....are you married? [Big Grin]

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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2002 19:24      Profile for MacManKrisK     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by neotatsu:
In Michigan it's illegal for any male to masturbate. If your caught you go to jail or get a hefty fine.

DEAR GOD! You mean there's MORE "recreational" things that I do that are illegal? [blush]

It's also illegal (in Michigan) for a male to use "curse words" in front of women or children. It carries a 90 stint in the slammer (if she presses charges, that is).

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get rich and you still die"


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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2002 19:55      Profile for Charisma   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just to clarify, pot messes with your perception of distance or depth or something. While not as dangerous as a drunk driver, a stoned driver is still pretty dangerous.

Pot also affects the, um... what's is called...

You know what I'm talking about! Geez... I forget.

Oh! That's right, the memory.

What?

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Twinkle Toes
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Icon 7 posted November 18, 2002 21:23      Profile for Twinkle Toes   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
But Bees, what if you're *both* virgins [Wink] ?

(GeeheHEE!)

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2002 22:41      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by cheezi git:
- should we always obey laws?

"We take these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their creator with certian unalienable rights and among these are Life, Liberty and the persuit of happiness. To secure these rights governments are instituted among men, derving their just power from the concent of the governed. When goverments become distructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it and establish new government...."

Govermnet's job is to secure the rights of the people. So, the government's job is to enforce the Catagorical Imparitive... Any law that isn't a incarnation of the catagorical imparitive is government bloat, not worth the expense and should be chalenged to highest court in the land.... DOWN WITH THE DCMA!!!!

quote:
are laws always fair and just?
Yes, and we need to pay people for the rest of their life for writting lists of things we can't do. your money, THEY STOLE FROM YOU, at work, ladies and gentleman. They get elected (by spending more money than anyone could forseable need to live comfortably in a life time... Vote for laws that people don't want, steal your money and retire rich.

quote:
what laws do you not agree with?[b]
DCMA, the laws that created the: FCC, FDA, ATF (ATF heh.... Hey, all three are LEGAL PRODUCTS!!!! WTF!), the creation of the exsecutive order, the liberal interprataition of "NECESSARY AND PROPER," Social Security cards (we'll only use them for your retirement benifits, no one else will ever see them..... YEAH RIGHT!!!!), the 36,000 words written on the sale of cabage, any federal law limiting free speach beyond libal, slander and public saftey, hate crime laws (Or should I call them PI crimes (politically incorrect crimes))

quote:
[B]should we always obey laws, even those we disagree with, just for the better cohesion of society?

When the federal government delivers on the seven promises of the Preamble to the constitution, and nothing else.... Untill then, my friends, I shall never rest.

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neotatsu
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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2002 23:42      Profile for neotatsu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It matters not whether or not they are both virgins, Twinkie. I said it's against the law for *any* male to have sex with a virgin female in this state. In one state it's against the law for a male to use 'sex talk' during sex. In one state it's against the law for a man to shoot a gun off while his partner is having an orgasm..

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SupportGoddess

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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2002 23:47      Profile for SupportGoddess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by cheezi git:
- should we always obey laws?
- are laws always fair and just?
- what laws do you not agree with?
- should we always obey laws, even those we disagree with, just for the better cohesion of society?

No, we shouldn't. I would be disappointed in any American that said "yes" since if we all were descendants of well-behaved law-abiding citizens we wouldn't be Americans anyway. One thing about our legal system, laws that are unjust/biased/prejudiced can be changed when they are challenged.

Laws are not fair and just, often they represent the prevailing morality at the time of their inception. That didn't make them any more *right* just more accepted.

I disagree with any law that criminalizes a victimless act. Prostitution, drugs, seat belts, whatever. Laws should act to protect people from *other* people, not from themselves except in the case where the person is unfit to make a rational choice.

And again, no. Society benefits from flexibility in the legal system. Challenging outmoded, unjust, and just plain stupid laws and having them removed or changed is far more beneficial than just blind obedience. Leading a bunch of sheep just makes you the king of the sheep.

quote:
Also posted by cheezi git:
should laws be there to protect us from ourselves, and encourage correct morality (whatever that is), or should they be a general consensus.

what about sharia law. it gets a really bad press in the west, but who really knows what it is about?

Laws should not legislate morality. My idea of morality is probably far different than that of a bible-belt baptist. I don't want their morality legally forced on me, and I doubt they would be happy if mine were forced on them.

Sharia law has something to do with Islamic law. I googled it and skimmed, but it was a bit too wordy for me to get really involved in at this hour of the morning, when I would rather be in bed with some good science fiction. Here is the link: http://answering-islam.org.uk/Sharia/

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cheezi git
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Icon 1 posted November 19, 2002 02:25      Profile for cheezi git     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
i must admit that from my short-sighted perspective from the uk, many legal issues in the usa are very similar to sharia law. things to do with abortion for instance: this does not seem to be anything but a moral argument, that has been turned into a politico-legal issue.

fundamentalism is fundamentalism, whether it is christian or muslim, hindu or jewish.

the whole issue about evolution, and whether it is taught in schools is another that baffles me. if evolution is so wrong, then teaching it schools will surely re-enforce its incorrect arguments.

i believe that far-right ameircan christians have more in common with extremist islamic mullahs, than they do with the average middle-of-the-road american.

nuff controversy

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Icon 1 posted November 19, 2002 06:50      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A code of law is a puzzle. What law tries to do, ideally, is make people who either don't want to behave or know how to behave to conform to a mode of behavior that is acceptable. This is done by spelling out exactly what is considered acceptable behavior. The problem arises when a behavior is either omitted, or is not clearly defined. So that is why courts try cases. When a person is on trial, not only is that person on trial, the law that they are being tried for is on trial as well. I try to treat others with respect and decency, that covers most laws I am concerned with. I don't agree with laws that make non-leathal activities illegal between consenting, fully informed, adults. Even if I think it's immoral it should still be legal. However, I also believe if what the consenting adults did hurts another party, (physically, monetarily, or emotionally) then they should have to make some sort of reparations. Society is in a constant state of evolution, and I think that as society grows, laws must be challenged. Laws that made sense a century ago, may or may not apply today depending upon changes in situations, or discovery of new data. Laws I don't agree with are the income tax laws. They are a means of societal molding rather than a means to collect the money needed to run the government.

{Edit} Another law I disagree with is the DMCA. If I buy music, I should be able to have it in whatever media I want. But the way that law is written, it's illegal to download mp3's of music I bought that is on tape.

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iballoondesign
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Icon 1 posted November 19, 2002 08:43      Profile for iballoondesign   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gee, where can I find more information about this odd law such as sex oral and thing - illegal. Thank!

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neotatsu
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Icon 1 posted November 19, 2002 09:20      Profile for neotatsu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by iballoondesign:
Gee, where can I find more information about this odd law such as sex oral and thing - illegal. Thank!

Well, there's a book called 'Sex and the law' that has a bunch, and then there's "Homosexuality and the law" <that's where I quoted from yesterday, though the only one new to me was the one in Washington. I saw a book called "Silly Laws Still on the Books" once, but I can't find it again... Speaking of silly laws, in Pierce County, Washington, the Sasquatch is listed as an endangered species, heeh.
There's a state in which it's legal to have sex in your car as long as you have tightly drawn curtains, haha!

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