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Author Topic: 2 short months
Rednivek

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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2006 20:08      Profile for Rednivek     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanks, Rhon, for the interesting point of view.

I am assuming the use of the terms "us" and "we" refer to you and Jonathan, rather than all of us, as your faith is yours.

People may feel put upon otherwise, but I find what you believe to be interesting as I would hope you would respectfully find my opinions and beliefs, which happen to differ from yours...

For example, I believe that the only hell that exists is being remembered with hatred. Meaning that your condemnation of your father to hell actually makes it happen. You can place him there with your own thoughts. I believe what we do that affects others is ours alone, rather than G-d's responsibility to oversee. Our personal responsibility is for our actions and for our judgments...

Can you forgive your father and let him avoid your condemnation, without strings?

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Rednivek - Detroit, Michigan, USA

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2006 20:17      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, Red, and I have forgiven my father. I'm thoroughly disgusted with his behavior, but he's such a pathetic man that hating him would be a waste of time and energy. Besides which, God has forgiven me completely for my many and varied sins. Who am I to withhold forgiveness from anyone else?

On a separate note, I find it interesting that you use the conservative Jewish spelling of God: G-d. Do you consider yourself to be of Jewish heritage? (And by that I mean, were you brought up in a Jewish culture/society/religion?)

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2006 20:52      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think the actual definition of Hell (and I'm going by the Catholic definition, the Protestant definition is probably slightly different, depending on the flavour), is simply a state of being completely separated from God.

While there is biblical support for a place of Torment, most of the pop-culture images of Hell were created by various artists or writers at one point or another- see the Divine Comedy.

I'm afraid I'm also going to have to agree with DNM: the churches seem to change to suit the major beliefs of popular culture. While I don't believe this is a bad thing (would I be a member of the Catholic church if they continued the practices of 500 years ago? Methinks not), I think it substantiall harms the credibility of any church, Catholic or Protestant, because it seems like they are changing many of their view/beliefs (though this may be for the better) just to keep up membership. On the other hand, perhaps there is true acknowledgement that things have changed, many parts of the Good Book aren't so Good and are, in fact, totally irrelevant, and that the problems of the past are not the problems of the present.

But this is just my $2.00E-2

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"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2006 20:55      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
So what you're saying is that if I do what I believe is right and just in the world, and genuinely do and believe in what I think is right, your god who is perfect and forgiving is going to punish me to the depths of hell for all eternity for doing what I thought was right?

dnf.

That is the gist of it. But then again, be you a Muslim, Jew, or whatever other myriad of religions under the world. If you do what you do and it goes against the doctrines. You are pretty much doomed to an eternity of suffering. What is new about that?

Whether you believe they are just or correct. It is a fact. And Rhonnie is no more right or wrong than anyone else for their beliefs. Myself or yourself included. The way I figure it, we all will find out who was right, if anyone is, soon enough.

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Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2006 22:09      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
So what you're saying is that if I do what I believe is right and just in the world, and genuinely do and believe in what I think is right, your god who is perfect and forgiving is going to punish me to the depths of hell for all eternity for doing what I thought was right?

That's about it, yes. You HAVE been warned, so when you stand before God and He asks why you did what you wanted to do instead of what He wanted you to do, you can't plead ignorance. It's like when you discipline a child. They don't know when they're exploring that it's wrong to climb on Momma's china hutch, so only a mild punishment/chastisement is in order. However, once they know it's wrong and they do it anyway, you're punishing them as much for their disobedience as for the damage they did to your china.

In adult terms, is it more fun to play with the china? Sure. But is it right? No, even if you can't see how it's right or wrong. That's where faith enters the picture. We can't see what's going to happen or why it happens, but we have to trust what we've seen... that God is a God of love and that He takes care of us. The suffering we experience on earth He uses to draw us closer to Him and to mold our character into the quality He desires. Yes, it may look like we lack tangible rewards for self-sacrifice and for looking like idiots sometimes for trusting in Him, but in the long run, we'll receive an eternity as perfect creatures living with a perfect God. There's nothing better than that.

And if it turns out God doesn't exist? The world will have been a better place for the love we've shown to others.

(And before anyone jumps on the "how is judging people showing love" bandwagon, let me say this: Christians do wrong just like anyone else; we've just confessed our sins and accepted Jesus's forgiveness. By stating that everyone needs a savior, we aren't making a judgment call; we're just stating what we know as fact. Put it this way: If you were thirsty and I had a glass of water, I'd be selfish and unkind to withhold it from you. In the same way, for me to be silent about my faith and what Jesus has done for me is to deny both of us the opportunity to share in His salvation.)

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Jessycat

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Icon 13 posted April 24, 2006 22:14      Profile for Jessycat     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
We can't see what's going to happen or why it happens, but we have to trust what we've seen... that God is a God of love and that He takes care of us.

When have we seen that?
I haven't seen that. Ever.

EDIT: That was rhetorical. Please do not answer that. I've heard it all before, trust me.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2006 22:23      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Rhon, IIRC, Red is Jewish.

I myself am areligious. To me, both heaven and hell are the products of human imagination. What matters most is how you behave towards others, including enemies and strangers, and also making peace with yourself as well. Any religion can give guidance on these things, and you can figure things out without religion either. Many paths up the same mountain, some are harder than others, yadda yadda yadda.

Edit: Jess, I am inclined to agree.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2006 22:40      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And He hath said,

"Let the flaming begin."

I know this is an open foruma and all, but can we please not go into this? I think everyone here has proven themselves sufficiently intelligent that we can assume they believe what they believe for a reason.

I disagree with Rhonwyyn on basically all aspects of the Christian faith, while maintaining that faith myself. Jessycat disagrees with Rhonny over the question of whether or not there is even a God (loving or otherwise). Just because Jessycat and I both disagree with Rhonny, does that mean that we will agree with each other? No. (though, I must admit, I believe our viewpoints are a smidge more compatible).

So I suggest we drop it. This started out as a thread about a lonely guy who's doing what he needs to do and wants something to talk to. Even if we drift away from the original topic, can we please stay away from religion? a full blown religious discussion is going to result in nothing but insults and hurt feelings. I, for one, do not want a C.P. vs. Erbo type situation, where neither side is willing to even consider the fact that the other may not be t3h evil.

So, in order to change the subject, can I get some punnage over here?

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"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2006 22:43      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
In my defense, I was only explaining what I believe, not insisting everyone believe that way. (You can lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink. [Razz] )

So to aquiesce to your request for punnage, I had this question:

When asking for a tonnage of punnage, how do you know if you will receive a ton or a tonne? [Confused]

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Change the way you SEE, not the way you LOOK!

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2006 23:17      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't know, I jsut wish to alleviate the heavy atmosphere of this thread...

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"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted April 24, 2006 23:24      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So we're just going bounce between subjects? If so, Ia go home now...

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Change the way you SEE, not the way you LOOK!

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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2006 00:03      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hehehe. You guys are pikers with the religion discussions. This is why I tend to avoid them like the plague:

I am more of an agnostic. My soon to be 13 year old daughter is a born-again pagan. Odd to mix such descriptions but trust me it works. She brings the teenager's hormonal passion and excitement. My son is being exposed through the sitter to fundamentalist christianity (free sleep on sundays, I work nights and I really have no favored religion so I snap it up)and he brings the five yearolds joy and whole body belief to it.

So life in my house sometimes resembles a strange mix of vatican II and SALT II. I get to be the diplomat running around putting out fires. hahahahaha.

No interesting discussions for me. I live it.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2006 04:25      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
So what you're saying is that if I do what I believe is right and just in the world, and genuinely do and believe in what I think is right, your god who is perfect and forgiving is going to punish me to the depths of hell for all eternity for doing what I thought was right?

That's about it, yes. You HAVE been warned.
First Rhonnie I apologise for my ill considered and patronising remark.

Second this is where I part company with conventional Christianity, and indeed any religion that proclaims itself as the only route to salvation enlightenment or whatever. I hope God himself also finds this kind of spiritual snobbery as impertinent as I do, as punishes those of you who believe it with appropriate severity! [Wink] I have always rather liked this (sadly fictional) epitaph

Here lie I, Martin Elginbrodde:
Hae mercy o my soul, Lord God,
As I wod do were I Lord God,
And ye were Martin Elginbrodde.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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maximile

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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2006 06:26      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mac D:
And as far as the "No sex before marriage" thing. Do you buy a car witout taking it for a test drive?

That's a little tacky. I just worry that people rush to get married because they want to have sex with each other, and then are stuck in a marriage that's no good for anyone.

(I'm not suggesting that this applies to anyone here.)

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Mac D
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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2006 07:27      Profile for Mac D     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by maximile:
quote:
Originally posted by Mac D:
And as far as the "No sex before marriage" thing. Do you buy a car witout taking it for a test drive?

That's a little tacky. I just worry that people rush to get married because they want to have sex with each other, and then are stuck in a marriage that's no good for anyone.

(I'm not suggesting that this applies to anyone here.)

I know a lot more girls that believe in that pholopophy the guys. Ok I don't have many friends that are guys. So havn't gotten thier oppinion on it. But i think it's important to know what you are getting into. The whole package.

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There's nothing wrong with me, This is how I'm supposed to be.

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2006 07:49      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Here's Jonathan's perspective on that argument:
quote:
I noticed that the one guy used that asinine argument about not buying a car without test-driving it. Jared [a coworker] tried to use that ludicrous line. It is only a valid analogy if you have already had sex. You test drive a car to see how it performs; to understand how it performs, you must first know how to drive and what a good drive is. If you don't, then you really have no frame of reference. I have never had sex, so once I am married, my wife will be all that I know of sex. I have no one else to compare her too. There is no need for a test drive, because this is my first time driving.
That's not to say you just blindly jump into a sexual relationship with your new spouse. There's plenty of opportunity during your courtship to explore your sexuality, but in an appropriate manner. It becomes fairly obvious if you aren't attracted to your partner, who has the stronger sex drive, who has more inhibitions, etc. You just need to make sure you're engaging in open, honest communication about everything (as embarrassing as it may be at times).

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Change the way you SEE, not the way you LOOK!

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Mac D
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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2006 08:14      Profile for Mac D     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I can't remember the persons name. She talks about "Relationship" issues on the radio. She said that you have to have sex with at least 7 people to acctually be able to compare and enjoy it. I think this is true. From what I have found before that 7 person mark I was in a long term relationship and really looking back on it the sex was not that great. I wasn't comfterble with myself and my abillities to know. I think it does take practice with multiple people to really enjoy it. Even with new people I have been with since my wife and I broke up. I've learned to take my time and it makes it better for every one involved.

Good sex was not an issue with my marriage it was there. Her resoning behind the infidelity was that it was readily availible with me (This I can see, I had thought about it at one point or anoter but never acted on it). She had a couple of drinks at the bar when she was at her parents 3 hours away. If it would have been an old boyfriend or something like that I probably would have been more hurt about it and question myself. She did do this more then once and thats why it had to end. And to be honest since I have moved out and she gets really jelouse she still asks me to come over for sex.

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There's nothing wrong with me, This is how I'm supposed to be.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2006 08:29      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:

There is no need for a test drive, because this is my first time driving.

The smartass in me wishes to point out that that's like being a first time driver, buying a Pinto w/no research, sight unseen, and raving to all your friends "This is the best thing!!! Sure, it stalls sometimes going up hills, the brakes aren't so hot in the rain, and it's noisy as all get-out...but it more-or-less gets me where I want to go. I'm going to love this car until the day it dies - nothing could be better!"

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2006 08:37      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm with Calli on all of this -- Rhon likened this to the scolding of a child, because I've been warned.

What kind of nonsense is that? I mean, really.

With a child, you give the child the rules, those are unequivocally the rules.

As for religion, you can argue all you want, there are more arguments against the existence of Jeebus and god and whatever, than there are for, so trying to tell me that's just how it is is a complete and utter line of bullshit.

Following your logic, every muslim, chinese buddhist, agnostic, and athiest is going to hell.

What about those who live in rural Sudan and never even hear of your Jesus? Are they going to hell because they didn't beg his forgiveness for their bad deeds?

It all just reeks of holier than thou (pun not intended for once) bullshit.

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2006 08:38      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
quote:

There is no need for a test drive, because this is my first time driving.

The smartass in me wishes to point out that that's like being a first time driver, buying a Pinto w/no research, sight unseen, and raving to all your friends "This is the best thing!!! Sure, it stalls sometimes going up hills, the brakes aren't so hot in the rain, and it's noisy as all get-out...but it more-or-less gets me where I want to go. I'm going to love this car until the day it dies - nothing could be better!"
Lets not forget the pinto was notorious for blowing up after taking it in the rear! [devil wand]
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Rednivek

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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2006 08:43      Profile for Rednivek     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Xan, I was born Jewish, Irish, etc... am probably more into tradition/culture than religion, but then again Jews arent into converting people or pushing beliefs on others. Its about personal responsibility for today (not for a reward when you're dead).

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Rednivek - Detroit, Michigan, USA

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ooby
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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2006 09:23      Profile for ooby     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by YaYawoman:
Hehehe. You guys are pikers with the religion discussions. This is why I tend to avoid them like the plague:

I am more of an agnostic. My soon to be 13 year old daughter is a born-again pagan.

I was under the impression that a born-again christian was somebody who was a christian, then wasn't, but then was again. How does one fit all of that changing of religion into the first 13 years of one's life?

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"haven't you ever wondered if there's more to life than being really, really, rediculously good looking?"

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2006 11:11      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So what you're saying is that if I do what I believe is right and just in the world, and genuinely do and believe in what I think is right, your god who is perfect and forgiving is going to punish me to the depths of hell for all eternity for doing what I thought was right?That's about it, yes. You HAVE been warned, so when you stand before God and He asks why you did what you wanted to do instead of what He wanted you to do, you can't plead ignorance.

There are millions of religions. Many of them state that if you don't believe in their religion, you're going to hell. Ergo, we're all going to hell... Why should I believe in your book over any other?

It's like when you discipline a child. They don't know when they're exploring that it's wrong to climb on Momma's china hutch, so only a mild punishment/chastisement is in order.

And if there are several Momma's to chose from, and each with different rules about the china hutch... And we can't prove the exsistance of any of them. Which Momma do we listen to?

However, once they know it's wrong

I don't know that is wrong. Morals involve harm, and there is a lot at stake in sex, but to say that all sex outside of marraige is wrong because some book written 200 years ago by drunk men, translated and collected by men seeking power and republished in thousands of different ways says so... There are praticalities, and rules of extream prudence with regards to premarital sex. There are cases where it can dive into moral issues, but the question is not a moral in and of itself.

There is no case to use or practile application of the Catagorical Imparative in this situation.

and they do it anyway, you're punishing them as much for their disobedience as for the damage they did to your china.

You punish them so they don't do it again.

In adult terms, is it more fun to play with the china?

I don't have a plate fetish, let's talk about what we're really talking about, sex. It's not a dirty word, and we're all (well, mostly) adults here, right?

Sure.

You assume... But, yes, it is.

But is it right?

No,


Why isn't it? Set aside silly bible arguments about what "He" says. Because I can use the bible to prove that you have a responsibility to kill me (me being a witch and all -- "Suffer not a witch to live"), and that you need to sacrifice a bull every Sabat day (Exodus -- wait, Jesus took that back... But, isn't god infalable, then why did he miscommunicate with Moses?).

even if you can't see how it's right or wrong.

So, you and the town mob will be summoning me to stake, right?

That's where faith enters the picture. We can't see what's going to happen or why it happens, but we have to trust what we've seen...

We haven't seen anything. And we used to take it on "faith" that heavier objects fell faster, we know today this is wrong. We used to take on "faith" that the world was flat, and if sailed to far you'd fall off the edge of the earth. We used to take on "faith" that earth was the center of the universe, and it was orbited by crystal speres with the stars painted on them being pushed by angels. Anything that we are asked to take on "faith" or look at as "self-evident" need to be questioned, probed, prodded and examined thoughly before being accepted as "truth".

that God is a God of love and that He takes care of us.

We should take care of ourselves, and our neighbors.

The suffering we experience on earth He uses to draw us closer to Him and to mold our character into the quality He desires.

Like the suffering of the poor, that drives some to steal. I don't claim to understand why suffering exsists, but it has never drawn me closer to a christian god. I do know, that the pleasures in life wouldn't seem so great if there was not suffering.

Yes, it may look like we lack tangible rewards for self-sacrifice and for looking like idiots sometimes for trusting in Him, but in the long run, we'll receive an eternity as perfect creatures living with a perfect God. There's nothing better than that.
Yes, there is... Heaven, as described by eternal happiness and everyone all the time, sounds like it'd get boring and I'd just have to slap some of the stupid smiling faces.... I can't be bothered to happy all the time, damn it.

And if it turns out God doesn't exist? The world will have been a better place for the love we've shown to others.

And the wars, crusades, inquisitions, witch trials... Christianity has been the justification for quite a bit of senless death. And, acording to the bible, even God got in on that action (sodom and gamora (spelling both)).

(And before anyone jumps on the "how is judging people showing love" bandwagon, let me say this: Christians do wrong just like anyone else; we've just confessed our sins and accepted Jesus's forgiveness.

Great, I'll commit murder, convert and confess to a preist and be as clean as snow....

By stating that everyone needs a savior, we aren't making a judgment call; we're just stating what we know as fact.

Without any proof.

Put it this way: If you were thirsty and I had a glass of water, I'd be selfish and unkind to withhold it from you.

Not if your need for the water was greater, and if the reason I was without water was because of circumstance brought about by my own action, and your reason for having it was due to hard work and ethics.

In the same way, for me to be silent about my faith and what Jesus has done for me is to deny both of us the opportunity to share in His salvation.)

And my reason for wanting more evidence is so that we can both share in reason and rational thought.

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Posts: 3038 | From: State of insanity | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2006 11:14      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi ooby. Well in the line after the born again pagan comment I did point out that it was an odd mix. I was using the born again to symbolize her passion and her tendency to try to convert people. I guess I could have used the line about the fundamentalist pagan running smack dab into the little fundamentalist christian, but I thought the other line was funnier.

I couldnt think of a pun so this post was my silly way of trying to lighten the mood a bit on this thread. (wasted effort obviously [Wink] )

I think from now on I will stick with everyone needs to just pack a bowl and relax.

Posts: 765 | From: virginia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2006 11:21      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And He hath said,

"Let the flaming begin."

I know this is an open foruma and all, but can we please not go into this?


The question before us is that of conseqences of salvation or damnation in the believers eyes -- given that, shouldn't we have the freedom of debate?

The question in the eyes of the doubters (in a christian god) is that we've been preached at hundreds of times, but no one pushing for our salvation offered us logical or compelling enough reason for us.

I disagree with Rhonwyyn on basically all aspects of the Christian faith, while maintaining that faith myself. Jessycat disagrees with Rhonny over the question of whether or not there is even a God (loving or otherwise). Just because Jessycat and I both disagree with Rhonny, does that mean that we will agree with each other? No. (though, I must admit, I believe our viewpoints are a smidge more compatible).

Yes, we each have different veiwpoints, and thus the same converstion shall ensue between any other group of believers and non-believers... That's what makes people intresting, and what each think so special. I honestly think there are as many religions in the world as their are people in it.

So I suggest we drop it.
I dissagree.

This started out as a thread about a lonely guy who's doing what he needs to do and wants something to talk to. Even if we drift away from the original topic, can we please stay away from religion?

Why?


a full blown religious discussion is going to result in nothing but insults and hurt feelings. I, for one, do not want a C.P. vs. Erbo type situation, where neither side is willing to even consider the fact that the other may not be t3h evil.

I don't think religious disscussions have to be that way. I want to know why people believe as they do, and often that comes out in converstation and debate.

So, in order to change the subject, can I get some punnage over here?

Oh, so you prefer another mindless pun-fest to something that may have real value?

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Posts: 3038 | From: State of insanity | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged


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