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Author Topic: Original Climate Conference
BYODKjiM
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Icon 1 posted December 16, 2009 08:32      Profile for BYODKjiM     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Read this and stop blindly following like dinosaurs:

http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/originals/Monckton-Caught%20Green-Handed%20Climategate%20Scandal.pdf

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Ashitaka

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Icon 12 posted December 16, 2009 08:57      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am confused , were dinosaurs blind?

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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted December 16, 2009 09:03      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Anyways,
Just because a few scientists are evil, doesn't mean we all are.

or to put it anouther way.

When one scientist uses statistics to fudge some analysis trends, it doesn't invalidate all scientists or science.

nor does it change reality, that the earth is warming.

i happen to believe we humans are influencing this trend.

But even if we aren't, does it change anything?

We still need to slow the process, human made or not, or WE (as the human race) are in for a sh!t storm.

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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted December 16, 2009 09:37      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Science and Public Policy Institute (SPPI) was founded by a long-time Republican staffer named Robert Ferguson. Until recently, Ferguson worked for an oil-industry funded think tank called Frontiers of Freedom. The Frontiers of Freedom are one of the most active groups in the attack on climate science and have received over $1 million in grants from oil giant ExxonMobil.

Ferguson also ran the "Center for Science and Public Policy" which was set up in early 2003, after receiving a $100,000 grant from ExxonMobil in 2002. Exxon has continued to fund the Center each year since then, to the tune of at least $50,000 a year.

Biased much?

You should always doubt your sources and fact check everything, even if you agree with it.

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted December 16, 2009 10:28      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ It always boils down to whose OX is going to get gored. Believe me BP and Sheel are spending money on photo cell research just in case. T. Boone Pickens was promoting wind and then turned away, not sure why yet.


____ Seems that the price of Oil dropped so far that wind was not a viable as it was when oil was more that Eighty Dollars a Barrel. It seems that Mr. Pickens has some wind turbines that he has already bought, about Two Billion worth. Market forces prevailed and bulk oil came down.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5835 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted December 16, 2009 12:52      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Here's an example of evil scientists manipulating data to fit their Sinister International Conspiracy.

quote:
from tfa:
A change in the type of thermometer shelter used at many Australian observation sites in the early 20th century resulted in a sudden drop in recorded temperatures which is entirely spurious. It is for this reason that these early data are currently not used for monitoring climate change. Other common changes at Australian sites over time include location moves, construction of buildings or growth of vegetation around the observation site and, more recently, the introduction of Automatic Weather Stations.

The impacts of these changes on the data are often comparable in size to real climate variations, so they need to be removed before long-term trends are investigated.

So, look a little beyond the carefully-selective quotes and graphs presented by the climate-change deniers, and the evil conspiracy turns out to be a simple case of scientists correcting for a known fault in a particular measuring technology, something you'll find in just about any data capture/analysis code.

Nothing to see here, move along...

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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BYODKjiM
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Icon 10 posted December 18, 2009 13:24      Profile for BYODKjiM     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That none of the people responding actually read the full article is indicative of the "blindly following" that I mentioned. All of your statements and quotes are actually countered in the article. True science does not rely on "consensus." There was once a consensus that the sun revolved around the Earth.

True science would let others have access to the original data used, along with the methods used to "adjust" (read falsify) the graphs, so the results can be verified independently. No, the adjustments were not made to account for changed thermometers. If anything, urban encroachment would require temperature data to be LOWERED rather than raised.

The article describes in great detail what the data adjustments were actually doing. Read it and you will understand why they didn't want their data and methods (paid for by taxpayers) released for all to analyze.

I'm sure most of the readers of these forums all enjoy contemplating government conspiracies when it comes to UFOS and the like. Why will you not even consider the possibility that Climategate has uncovered perhaps one of the biggest government conspiracies of this generation? Take an hour and actually read the article.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted December 18, 2009 14:27      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ BYODKjiM, are you denying that the Polar ice caps are melting? There are parts of Alaska that are seeing beach sand that for years was covered with ice. There are Glaciers melting in Greenland, Norway and Sweden. There are Islands in the Indian Ocean that will soon be uninhabitable.

____ So is it man caused or Nature, can we as humans slow down the process, or is it out of our hands. Those are the questions, do you have a real answer or are just going to say Drill Baby Drill!

____ No its all conspiracies.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5835 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted December 18, 2009 14:34      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BYODKjiM:
That none of the people responding actually read the full article is indicative of the "blindly following" that I mentioned. All of your statements and quotes are actually countered in the article. True science does not rely on "consensus." There was once a consensus that the sun revolved around the Earth.

Thank you for the quick lesson in science.

Here's another:
Dismissing a statement as a "snivelingly self-serving" "pretext" from a "science hate-crime website" is not a scientifically-valid way of "countering" the statement.

Once you cut through the heavily emotive language, and sweeping, unsupported claims of a huge international anti-government conspiracy by scientists, what your own "climategate" document describes is scientists taking data from a variety of sources, selecting the most reliable sources for each time period, and applying calibration factors to the data where appropriate.

quote:
from TFA:
As for the ‘decline’, it is well known that Keith Briffa’s maximum latewood tree ring density proxy diverges from the temperature records after 1960 (this is more commonly known as the “divergence problem” ... and has been discussed in the literature since Briffa et al. in Nature in 1998 (Nature, 391, 678-682). Those authors have always recommend not using the post-1960 part of their reconstruction

When given the choice between direct, thermometer-based data, and indirect data inferred from tree-rings, they chose to use the thermometers. To see that as a sinister conspiracy, you'd have to believe that tree-rings are a more reliable source of data than thermometers, which is possible I suppose, if the worlds thermometer manufacturers are in on the conspiracy...

Cue: "Thermometergate" press release from the climate-denial lobby.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted December 18, 2009 14:41      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
BYODKjiM wrote:
I'm sure most of the readers of these forums all enjoy contemplating government conspiracies when it comes to UFOS and the like.

No, we generally make fun of people who believe in such things. The only difference between them and you is that they're crazy enough to be hilariously entertaining.

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted December 18, 2009 16:45      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm not sure why it's easier for some to believe in a vast global conspiracy rather than the facts but whatever. Denial's a powerful impulse I guess.

Here's something very important for ALL consumers of scientific data to keep in mind: no one in their right mind compares raw datasets outside some very specific cases, and even then you're comparing raw datasets taken from the same instrument or sample or both (experimental designs vary). Raw data is very much subject to how your experiment was performed and measurements taken. Was the detector working? Did you set the baselines? Use the same offset? Calibrate properly? How noisy is the environment? Are you set up to measure what you think you're measuring? If applicable to your particular experiments or observations, how was your sample handled? If you're using a radioactive or fluorescent tracer, how fresh is it/how photo-bleached is it? How pure are your reagents? If you've got a finicky reagent, are you using the same lot? Got any weird drift issue? Sometimes this stuff causes such severe problems you just have to chuck the data and run a bunch of controls because you've clearly got problems. Most of the time though, these variables and problems are very easily addressed by just doing things right: hitting the zero button, running the blank, going through the calibration routine and so on. Other times, and this depends on the data being taken and how it's being taken, you also need to employ various types of scaling and averaging routines and background or baseline corrections after the measurements are done. This is especially true if you're comparing data taken on different instruments and/or from different samples. The math is tedious but it is simple - the tricky part and the part people argue and argue about until they've agreed that this will be the standard for the field is just what sort of algorithm to use.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted December 19, 2009 12:09      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Science, and the study of facts. Many years ago (50) a Television Station located in a flyway for migratory birds put up a new and bigger tower. The Anti Collision Lighting (FAA) was blamed for thousands of Bird Deaths during foggy nights. Following years of different lighting methods, and blinking the lights it came to be the guy wires were to blame and that the birds were not seeing the wires in the fog, not being disoriented by the lights. So now towers in flyways use lights that will make the guy wires show up to the birds

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5835 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
ericole
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Icon 2 posted December 21, 2009 20:07      Profile for ericole     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This is funny and well drawn, but even though I know what you are trying to say - that people who don't get on board with climate change are like the dinosaurs - it doesn't work.

EVEN IF climate change were happening outside of what's normal, humans would be just as powerless to do anything as the dinosaurs would have been with a meteor strike.

Numerous studies have shown, and even a UN report has acknowledge, that if everything in the Kyoto Protocol were enacted, it probably wouldn't make any difference - except in the costs to the citizens.

[Smile]

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted December 21, 2009 20:21      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ericole:


Numerous studies have shown, and even a UN report has acknowledge, that if everything in the Kyoto Protocol were enacted, it probably wouldn't make any difference - except in the costs to the citizens.

Reports have shown that Kyoto would have been insufficient. That's not the same as ineffective.

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"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."
—Miss Piggy

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