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» The Geek Culture Forums   » All about the comics!   » The Joy of Tech   » Apple&JOT...Corporate culture of Hate and Derision (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Apple&JOT...Corporate culture of Hate and Derision
Jim in the Forest
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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 07:00      Profile for Jim in the Forest     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There is no other parallel to it in modern life. A company culture from the CEO down to the common user whose only purpose in life is to mock and deride another company.

Scheech...if you are happy with your operating system, fine! Why do you find it necessary to make such negative comparisions? Do you want more marketshare? Why? You seem to have everything you want now.

BTW...among my four computers, my least used is an intel mac mini. I just don't like OSX. I just don't see any superiority and some aspects of OSX, including its lack of contextual menus when right clicking (and yes I have a two button mouse) as compared to Windows right click menus drives me crazy.

I also don't see how the goals of Apple mesh with reality. If they truly wish to become a majority operating sytem in the world, they are going to have to make huge changes in their approach to the Enterprise worldwide. For one thing, business simply does not like single source suppliers, so they are going to have to license OSX to other computer manufacturers. For another, OSX software in business, particularly, accounting, manufacturing and engineering is woefully inadequate and not getting better. I read that the north hall of MacWorld where independent vendors and Mac developers ply their wares was a vast, empty space this year.

In any case, I'm sick of of Joy of Tech...it's not funny anymore.

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Mac D
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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 07:17      Profile for Mac D     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
They ARE better computers.

Go thru the "Ask a geek" forum on here. The PC problems that people ask are far more great and far more critical. And as a person that uses both Mac and PC I use my Macs way more. PC is good for nothing other then games.

And we gloat because we can. Come on ask me when the last time I restarted my iBook or had a crash on it. Come on I dare you. I tripple dog dare you.

And if you compare the market share of the OS, Yes Mac is far behind but when you compare it to other computer makers Apple is in the top 5 producers of mobile computers. Right up there with Dell and HP. So it's not like the company is doing bad. And look at the mobile music portion of it's sales. Somthing like 95% of the market share is iPod. So if you look at it in a more broad light Apple is doing better then a lot of it's rivels. Just because one aspect of the company looks small does not mean the company is doing bad.

And I love the JOT comics.

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There's nothing wrong with me, This is how I'm supposed to be.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 07:32      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jim in the Forest_________________It is all in the vantage point. I started on a TI99/4A wirting my own code for my own use. Then at work I had to learn Machine tool codes for programing Mills, Lathes, and wire EDM Machines, Then I was educated in Unigraphics CAD/CAM/CAE during that time Windows was a poor copy of the Mac OS it was clunky and did not function as well as UG, my choice Mac and then Linux atually Ubuntu.

I have Macs, PCs with no hard drives, just CD-ROMs for booting various versions of linux, plus a brand new Compaq with XP on it, so where do I stand, I use them all but my favorite is the Mac followed by Ubuntu, the new laptop, to me was a waste of money except for its GPS use.

If you do not think JOT is funny don't read it. These forums are why I connect to Geek Culture, there are a lot of fine people here if you don't try to (urinate them off). If you look closely at the home page you will find a link (fifteen freshest posts) set that as your bookmark and you don't have to look at JOT.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stereo

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 08:21      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yeah, yeah, I know: don't feed the troll. But the only thing I'll say is this: Apple doesn't want to be #1 selling brand or #1 money-maker or any other #1 valued by the corporate mindset. That's not their final goal (that would be a nice side-effect if they can get it, though). No. They want to be the best. Best OS, best computers, best apps, best cool toys, etc.* And that's why I, like so many, like them. [Big Grin]

(*And before anyone goes about how they're not perfect, well, duh! A goal is something you are aiming at, not something you've already reached!)

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Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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uilleann
Discontinued


Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 08:24            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Actually, while this is probably no different to Macs, something that really grates on me in Windows is how many system apps/tools/panels don't use context menus. For example: open the Users and Passwords control panel (the Classic style one for XP users), and right-click a user. All you get is a menu with an utterly worthless "What's this?" item. All of Microsoft's software is like this: context menus are under-used. But then you get third-party apps that make context menus the only way of working with list items: add, remove, edit etc are only available via right-click.

In my experience, Mac OS has been pretty damn good with context menus since their inception in Mac OS 8, and I've been a very heavy user of Mac OS context menus ever since I got my StarMax clone in 2000, running 8.5. If anything, OS X took a turn for the worse, particularly the Finder whose context menus are at times ridiculous.

The underlying technology for context menus in Mac OS is superior to that of every other OS, but no-one seems to understand or realise this, not even Apple. Mac OS has a global context handling service that allows you to add plug-in modules that can service any application. Just pass it your context and all global modules decide what menu items will work. In fact, if you look at Services in NeXTSTEP, this is the same idea but less-well implemented. Context menu modules DO NOT ADD unncessary menu items whereas the Services system shows all available services whether available or not, creating a cluttered menu that makes it slower and (considering Fitt's law) harder to select anything as well as more confusing.

Apple failed to merge these two systems and this was a mistake: they're the same concept and Services would be far more useful if they could be run from context menus and swapped in and out like you can with context menu modules.

I don't know if the old mutator/accessor flaw still exists, where modules don't appear to be able to indicate context mutations. For example, right-click a file in the OS 8/9 Finder, run a contextual action from a third-party module that alters the file size, and the Finder doesn't seem to realise or care.

Windows has two advantages, however:

  • Explorer's file menu contains all the items from its context menu (the Mac Finder does not)
  • It provides a context menu key for mouseless operation

Mac OS X could offer the latter. The former can be solved by a Services/context menu merge, since the Services menu would now provide mouseless operation for context commands (since OS X's menus can be operated by the keyboard entirely now).

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 2 posted January 25, 2007 08:29      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
OK, Jim, I think you need to take a deep breath and repeat after me: "It's only an operating system. It's not my identity." An OS is just a tool we use. I have a little trouble understanding why you take jokes about Windows so seriously.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Jim in the Forest
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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 08:36      Profile for Jim in the Forest     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Windows only better for games? I don't know who participates in this forum...maybe people who make their living drawing cartoons on Watcom tablets and students.
The truth is damn near the entire infrastructure of the planet was designed and operated with the help of Windows machines...from the power grid, to highways, bridges, tunnels and buildings.

The vast majority of manufacturing relies on Windows. In fact, I would hazard a guess that there is not a single component in a Mac computer (processor, hard drives, graphics cards) that was designed or manufactured using OSX software.

Then there are all the other industries and entities that are Windows based...medicine, governments worldwide, the military...all Windows.

Start living in the real world fanboys.

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Mac D
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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 08:47      Profile for Mac D     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jim in the Forest:
Windows only better for games? I don't know who participates in this forum...maybe people who make their living drawing cartoons on Watcom tablets and students.
The truth is damn near the entire infrastructure of the planet was designed and operated with the help of Windows machines...from the power grid, to highways, bridges, tunnels and buildings.

The vast majority of manufacturing relies on Windows. In fact, I would hazard a guess that there is not a single component in a Mac computer (processor, hard drives, graphics cards) that was designed or manufactured using OSX software.

Then there are all the other industries and entities that are Windows based...medicine, governments worldwide, the military...all Windows.

Start living in the real world fanboys.

Most of that is done on Unix to tell the truth. Windows is not reliable enough. Windows is used mostly for accounting and other office work. When something is system critical Unix is used and when art work or video is needed they bring in te Macs. They all do have a place in the world. Don't think for one minute that the world revolves around Windows. The "Backbone" of the internet is on computers running Unix. And there is not a super computer out that has windows on it. That too is Unix.

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Jim in the Forest
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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 08:55      Profile for Jim in the Forest     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nope Mac D...I'm a registered Professional Engineer and you are flat out wrong. I've gone to hundreds of manufacturing plants and construction sites all around the world and you will not find Macs or Unix boxes in the design and manufacturing offices.
You obviously have not relevant experience to make your statement.

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Mac D
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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 09:00      Profile for Mac D     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And what are these "Windows" boxes designing?

Sorry everyone else for feeding the troll but I am board this morning.

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There's nothing wrong with me, This is how I'm supposed to be.

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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 09:07            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No, MacD, Windows is used plenty in industry. Just ask Steen for one -- I think all the systems his company uses are Windows-based. The idea that Windows is limited to office and accounting duties is quite ludicrous and Jim is far closer to the truth. But there are also for example SGI machines used in design. The Internet industry is pretty UNIX-based, but IIS/Exchange is far from dead yet. There still seems to be a niche for RISC OS in the television industry, in the UK at least, on Acorn's ARM-based range of PCs. Even Amiga OS won't die, with a final release of Amiga OS 4 just out.
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Jim in the Forest
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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 09:19      Profile for Jim in the Forest     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Look, fanboys, ..you are thinking of unix servers on the net and word processors on the mac.
I'm talking about Finite Element analysis of skyscrapers....or heart/lung machines designed, manufactured and calibrated with Windows machines.
Enough, I'm wasting too much time. Mac users...just continue living in your bedroom at Mom and Dad's for as long as you can.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 09:44      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jim in the Forest:
Look, fanboys, ..

pot... kettle...

Keep in mind I only used one Mac in my life, and that was an iMac I had to use at work.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 10:07      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jim in the Forest_____________________You are so full of BS that your eyes are brown. I used HP Unigraphics work stations to design and build tooling for the auto industry. The first workstations were as big as a two drawer file cabinet. The interesting part was that the graphics box was huge. It had 16 Motorola 68040 processors in there. Then we got the smaller boxes HP workstations with IBM 620 chips and they ran on UNIX not windows. Eventually UGS was ported to PCs & Winblows but most of the pull down menus were inopertive because the PCs did not have enough power. I tried to draw a shaft coupling (three jaw that takes a spider) when I tried to four view, the isometric view did not have line junctions. You can not program a milling machine to follow a line that does not connect to the next. Back to the work station retrim all lines and post process the tool path. We often got files from engineers like you, we would open your two view file and try to 3D it and build. The worst was when an outside engineering firm would send in thier compleate solids drawn on some other platform, we would have to convert to igess and then import and hope that it was a solid not sheetbodies sewn around the edges. If UGS sees an opening at an edge it will pass the tool inside and try to hollow the solid out. Oh by the way Siemans just bought UGS for 3.5+B nice chunk of change.

http://www.cioinsight.com/article2/0,1540,2087362,00.asp


Oh and I haven't lived with my parents since I went to war in Vietnam.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 10:37      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jim in the Forest:
Windows only better for games? I don't know who participates in this forum...maybe people who make their living drawing cartoons on Watcom tablets and students.
The truth is damn near the entire infrastructure of the planet was designed and operated with the help of Windows machines...from the power grid, to highways, bridges, tunnels and buildings.

The vast majority of manufacturing relies on Windows.

Is it true that your mum's porn/scat website was designed and runs exclusively on Windows?
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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 11:47      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's an obvious troll, but I feel like responding

Jim in the Forest wrote:
The truth is damn near the entire infrastructure of the planet was designed and operated with the help of Windows machines...from the power grid, to highways, bridges, tunnels and buildings.

Umm... no. This will apparently come as a huge surprise to you, but the vast majority of the infrastructure of the planet was designed and in place before November 10, 1983 when Windows was first announced. In fact, most of it was designed on paper without the involvement of a computer.

The vast majority of manufacturing relies on Windows. In fact, I would hazard a guess that there is not a single component in a Mac computer (processor, hard drives, graphics cards) that was designed or manufactured using OSX software.

Once again, no. Design and desktop applications are commonly on Windows systems, but manufacturing is not dependant on someone being able to use their word processor. The manufacturing processes themselves, which are critical, are based on PLCs and a handful of embedded operating systems. Microsoft has been trying very hard to crack the embedded OS market with Windows CE and have been successful to an extent, but VxWorks currently dominates the embedded OS market and has roughly twice the market share of Windows CE.

One of our handheld vibration analyzers is based on Windows CE. Our online systems, however, are based on VxWorks because of stability and hardware compatibility issues with CE.

Finally, as uilleann correctly noted, my own company produces software that runs on Windows systems. The reason for this, however, is nothing more than legacy and economics. Our software started out in MS-DOS before Windows existed. Porting everything to Mac OS would require more investment than we can justify. The moment it would be in our interest to do so, we would abandon the Windows platform and not look back. This holds true for most other companies too.

The only reason Windows dominates today is that it dominated yesterday and businesses are in business to make money, not spend it by switching when they don't need to. The goal is to maximise profits by using what is on hand as long as possible before replacement. The moment ie becomes financially beneficial to switch to Macs, the Windows PCs will disappear.

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Grummash

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 12:10      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Who let this one in? [Confused]

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...and yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this earth with envious eyes...

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 13:49      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jim in the Forest_______________________Lets see if I got this right Windows designed the infrastructure we use today?

1931 Empire State Building Opened Bill Gates not yet born.

1937 Golden Gate Bridge Opened for traffic No Bill Gates

1945 Atom Bomb works No Windows

1957 Mackinaw Bridge opens No Windows

1964 Chesapeake Bay bridge tunnel opens No Windows

1969 Niel Armstrong on the moon No Windows

1984 Mac No Windows

1985 Windows on Dos what a piece of crap.

So some very major things were done with slide rules and adding machine long before the computer age, do you know how to use a slip stick?

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
spungo
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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 14:08      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
quote:
Originally posted by Jim in the Forest:
Windows only better for games? I don't know who participates in this forum...maybe people who make their living drawing cartoons on Watcom tablets and students.
The truth is damn near the entire infrastructure of the planet was designed and operated with the help of Windows machines...from the power grid, to highways, bridges, tunnels and buildings.

The vast majority of manufacturing relies on Windows.

Is it true that your mum's porn/scat website was designed and runs exclusively on Windows?
[Big Grin] Bravo!

--------------------
Shameless plug. (Please forgive me.)

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AgingAmigaoid
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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 14:50      Profile for AgingAmigaoid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jim in the Forest:
There is no other parallel to it in modern life. A company culture from the CEO down to the common user whose only purpose in life is to mock and deride another company.

Then how do you explain all those Ford trucks with the little "Calvin peeing on the Chevy Logo" decal?

Besides, you and the Mac fan-boys all know that the Amiga is still superior! [devil wand]

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 16:06      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Since Mac fan-boys came up...

Oh look, a vaguely related tangent...

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 16:24      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jim in the Forest:
Look, fanboys, ..you are thinking of unix servers on the net and word processors on the mac.
I'm talking about Finite Element analysis of skyscrapers....or heart/lung machines designed, manufactured and calibrated with Windows machines.
Enough, I'm wasting too much time. Mac users...just continue living in your bedroom at Mom and Dad's for as long as you can.

I prefer to do my number-crunching on a Linux cluster, or a dualG5, thank you all the same. Machines that don't hang up and finish the job are a very nice an convenient thing to have in my line of work....and absolutely essential in some others (such as running a heart-lung machine).

I personally use whatever I need to get the job done, which is why I'm equally incompetent with *nix, Windows, and OSX.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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BooBooKitty

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Icon 8 posted January 25, 2007 16:29      Profile for BooBooKitty     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
For a registered "Professional" Engineer, you're not really acting too professionally. You're making some stereotypical assumptions of some of the members of this forum. Why are you so vehemently on the attack? Just whom are you trying to insult by using the term "fanboy"? Are you also assuming that all of the forum members here are pubescent, horny males with no life and do nothing but play games all day?

All of the major OS's have their merits. You don't have to like OSX or Unix or Linux if you don't want to. And if you don't like reading joy of Tech anymore, then don't read it. No one is forcing you.

If you can't play nice here, go find another playground.

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 17:19      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
He's probably a PR flak for M$.
From the NY Times:

quote:
In fact, Microsoft has tried to buy public opinion in secret over and over again in the last few years. Here are a few examples-mainly, the ones where Microsoft was caught:

In 1998, the Los Angeles Times reported that Microsoft, during its antitrust trials, hired PR companies to flood newspapers with fake letters of support, bearing ordinary individuals' names but actually written by Microsoft PR staff.

Later, during the antitrust trials, Microsoft attempted to prove the inseparability of Windows and Internet Explorer by playing a video for the judge. But the government's lawyer noticed that as the tape rolled on, the number of icons on the desktop kept changing. Microsoft had spliced together footage from different computers to make its point.

Then in 2002, Microsoft's Web site featured a testimonial called "Confessions of a Mac to PC Convert," a first-person account by an attractive brunette "freelance writer" about how she had fallen in love with Windows XP.

Unfortunately, a Slashdot member discovered that the identical photo was available for rent from the stock-photo libraries of GettyImages.com. Sure enough: Microsoft had hired a PR firm to write the testimonial. The "switcher" did not actually exist.

I am not, and never will be, a knee-jerk Microsoft basher. I'll give its products good reviews whenever they're deserved (as I have with, for example, Media Center, Windows Vista and Office 2007).

But for goodness' sake: Why is Microsoft so insecure? Why can't it allow its software to stand on its own? Why does it feel the necessity to spin public opinion using these phony "grass-roots" marketing tactics?

Here's a wake-up call to the Machiavellis on Microsoft's PR team: bribing bloggers, fabricating reviews and making up letters to the editor makes the company look worse, not better.

If Microsoft really wants to earn high marks from the public, it might want to consider earning them the old-fashioned way: By creating products people love.


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BooBooKitty

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2007 17:27      Profile for BooBooKitty     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Troll
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